Intensity Pro vs. AverTV HD (Suggestions on what to do?)

[Croco]

I've been trying to compare these two cards myself to see which one I should keep, but they both seem to have flaws that make me wonder if I am either being too picky, or something is wrong with what I am doing.

I used the nifty BlinkTV test DVD as well as colorbars on a DVD for testing. Latest drivers for both.

What I noticed

AverTV HD
+ Correct levels
+ Correct vectorscope
+ Almost perfect solid colors over S-Video

- Gain adjustment between scene changes is noticeably slower than the intensity pro, although 8 frames or less.
- Needlessly oversharp, especially noticeable on the EIA 1954 test chart. No way to turn it off apparently as well.
- Seems to easily freak out and drop frames once in a while, even from a pristine source.
- ADC has more noticeable banding on gradients/histogram. Not very noticeable perceptually on normal video however.

Intensity Pro
+ Better scene changes for gain, maybe 1 or 2 frames lag.
+ No capture dropouts from a good source or straight from a crummy VHS
+ Sharpness is more in line and natural, and the EIA 1954 chart is GREAT.

- Levels are well over the top, even when I tried VCR input. Whites are well past IRE 100 outside of the colorbars for some scenes.
- Very odd diagonal banding that is noticeable in both solid colors and in my VHS captures. This is also easy to see on the vectorscope with the tops having wavy lines.
- I still get major desync problems on this card after an hour of capture

Sample images (Sorry if they are large, click for fullsize)

Colorbars + Waveform AverTV HD



Colorbars + Vectorscope AverTV HD



Sharpness AverTV HD



Colorbars + Waveform Blackmagic Intensity Pro



Colorbars + Vectorscope Blackmagic Intensity Pro



Sharpness Blackmagic Intensity Pro



This is an enhanced still of the Intensity Pro with a solid grey color. Makes the noise alot easier to see. The AverTV HD version is clean as a whistle compared to this.



So....

I unfortunately can't decide between the two. Is there a different card that anyone would recommend for me to try? Or should I just stick to the AverTV HD and deal with the oversharp, wonky ACG? The diagonal noise on the Intensity Pro irritates the hell out of me. Maybe the card I got is faulty.

Maybe someone else will find use out of the images I made

[NJRoadfan]

You left out an important bit of information. Which input on the cards did you use for these tests? Keep in mind that each input on the same card may vary. I'm actually surprised at how the Intensity Pro performs. As a "professional" level card, it should not have IRE or noise problems at all.

I own the AVer card, and I can't say I have seen any problems with the over sharpening in my captures, or even AGC issues. They might not be noticeable with my home movie VHS captures (HuffYUV compressed), but of course it could vary by card as well. Remember that compression to MPEG-2 can soften the video a bit anyway. You could likely counteract the sharpness issue with a procamp or sharpness dial on the VCR if you have one.

[Croco]

Oh I'm sorry about that.

Same ordeal between the two (I have them both in the computer at the same time at the moment)

My player is a Sanyo DRW-1000, DVD Recorder VHS combo. Playing the test DVD using the DVD player through S-Video to S-Video on the capture cards. (Intensity Pro uses that funny S-Video -> Y/C adaptor). I tried the same using Composite but neither appear to have a 3D comb filter, the moire test patterns looked acceptable, but nothing like the sample image I've seen here for the ATI Theater 650 cards. I did try a different S-Video->Y/C cable (no adaptor needed) on the Intensity Pro just to make sure its not the cable I'm using, but the noise is still there. I'm certain it is the card doing that at this point. Yes, it does seem akward that such a card has a visible noise issue along with the incorrect levels. I should not that using the 2.1 drivers the levels were actually correct, but there was no superblack/superwhite as well as the noise problem described above was significantly worse. Hence, the input is just apparently fine... but the latest drivers introduce a levels issue.

I'll probably hang on to the Avermedia Card for now, unless I can find something better or someone has a suggestion (Canopus DV box?) to eliminate some of the hassle I've gone through.

I'm not certain about whether my VCR is an ideal source for VHS now, I thought the Intensity Pro had bad AGC until I did my tests. It must be the original VHS behaving like that. I can't test a retail cassette until my TBC arrives in the mail.

Reading other posts in the forum here about suggested VCR seem to point that I should try to find some sort of higher quality JVC/Panasonic SVHS VCR of some sort down the road. When playing VHS I get little black spots (look like single pixel dots scattered in diagonal patterns down the image) which makes me suspect about dirty heads or just a poor VCR to begin with.

[jagabo]

Try removing the AverMedia card and see if the Intensity Pro gets any cleaner. Try the IP in different slots. If you have any other cards you can live without, remove them too.

Try tests with a variety of light/dark shots to see how bad the AGC and levels are with real video.

[Croco]

Thank you, I had tried it before with the card by itself but I will try again just in case. I had done a clean install a few days ago with nothing in the computer but the Intensity card but it would still have desync issues + noise. I will have to look around to see if I can find something that can output analog component as a different source, but that wont fix the S-video problem either way.

[jagabo]

Also try plugging the computer and VCR into the same outlet or power strip to reduce ground loop problems. Even run a ground wire from the VCR case to the computer case. I've heard of some people solving this sort of herringbone noise by changing the computer's power supply.

[danno78]

Both cards are made for capturing HD signals, not SD. The ADC which deal with S-Video and composite inputs are regular, nothing spectacular. For AverTV HD is Trident TM Master TM6200 10bits and 2D comb filter and for Intensity Pro I forgot the name but I sure that is not better. Most users buy these cards for high definition and both manufacturers know that and put little energy in design.

Don`t expect top quality with standard definition because are "professional" and the price is high.
Keep in mind that almost all cards have flaws. You have to decide which card deal better with your expections/sources.

[jagabo]

Some more things to try:

Change the resolution and/or refresh rate of your graphics card.

Change the spread spectrum settings in your BIOS.

Shut off any heavy equipment nearby (air conditioner?).

If you have cable coax attached to a TV card, disconnect it.

Try a different motherboard or computer.

Try a better shielded s-video cable.

[Croco]

Some more things to try:
Change the resolution and/or refresh rate of your graphics card.
Change the spread spectrum settings in your BIOS.
Shut off any heavy equipment nearby (air conditioner?).
If you have cable coax attached to a TV card, disconnect it.
Try a different motherboard or computer.
Try a better shielded s-video cable.

The only thing I have not tried there is another computer, which I will attempt later.

Both cards are made for capturing HD signals, not SD. The ADC which deal with S-Video and composite inputs are regular, nothing spectacular. For AverTV HD is Trident TM Master TM6200 10bits and 2D comb filter and for Intensity Pro I forgot the name but I sure that is not better. Most users buy these cards for high definition and both manufacturers know that and put little energy in design.

Don`t expect top quality with standard definition because are "professional" and the price is high.
Keep in mind that almost all cards have flaws. You have to decide which card deal better with your expections/sources.

That is acceptable, however what should I look for then specifically for SD captures? I see you can still buy the ATI Theater 750 cards but another thread mentioned the AGC on those is very wonky. What about those canopus DV boxes? Or is there anything else really? It seems that they stopped making all the good cards for SD capture lately :/

Either way thank you for the other suggestions. It looks like both cards in the end are unacceptable anyways due to timing issues with long duration captures. I still get A/V sync problems with Virtualdub.

[jagabo]

I still get A/V sync problems with Virtualdub.

Have you tried all the A/V sync options in VirtualDub? I find it's often necessary to disable resync.

[Croco]

(This is with the Avermedia card)

Yeah I'm playing with it now as we speak. All A/V sync options are off and sending it a perfectly still image, about every 45 seconds it drops a frame. I can only imagine this is a fractional framerate issue with the card.

If I disable "Try to adjust video timing for fewer dropped frames" I get dropped frames less often, but it still happens.

The capture/preview pin are both set to 29.97 fps as well as virtualdubs capture rate. I'm not sure if its virtualdubs timing issue here or a missing decimal in the frame rate. The capture pin says "29.970" which makes me wonder internally if its timed to 29.97002 or something wonky like that. Unfortunately virtualdubs framerate wont go to that many decimal places... it says "29.9700" on its speed setting after I set the capture pin.

Interestingly when test capturing raw video to eliminate compressor/disk issues, the average fps is 29.9776 or something like that until it drops a frame, then drops closer to 29.9700 but starts to creep slowly upwards again, as if the actual captured rate is > 29.97002. Clearly there is a fractional framerate issue at hand here. This one has me really confounded!

I'll keep playing with it and let you know how it goes. I'll try disabling dropped/inserted frames, letting it go for a while, and see what it reports back as the avg fps/audio hz. It looks to me that the video capture driver is perhaps running a little too fast. I'll also try to compare it to my crap PVR-950Q USB (worthless for analogue capture, horrible AGC but maybe good as a 2nd opinion for timing) later.

Edit: I'll try different drivers later as well too, perhaps it may be the ones I am using causing this issue. By the way thank you for the help on this issue ^^

[jagabo]

Odd. The difference between 29.97 fps and 30 fps is about 1 frame every 33 seconds. So you're closer to that than a 0.00x rounding error.

[danno78]

[QUOTE=Croco;2054870]

That is acceptable, however what should I look for then specifically for SD captures? I see you can still buy the ATI Theater 750 cards but another thread mentioned the AGC on those is very wonky. What about those canopus DV boxes? Or is there anything else really? It seems that they stopped making all the good cards for SD capture lately :/

Either way thank you for the other suggestions. It looks like both cards in the end are unacceptable anyways due to timing issues with long duration captures. I still get A/V sync problems with Virtualdub.

AGC in sequences with rapid and frequent changes of light can be annoying. However only very few frames are affected. It depends on the source. In natural sequences, is not annoying. Is up to you if you accept this shortcoming and benefits (there are more than disadvantages).
If you had the money for these two expensive cards, then certainly can afford an ATI. It is much cheaper. You can see if it is right for you.

About A/V synch. Something is wrong with your setup. Other users don`t have this problem.

About wrong level with Intensity Pro. Here is a way to fix:
http://www.etfinder.net/capturepics/

Another card (Asus Pe6200) with wrong level:
Both caps are from DVD player using the same cable (composite) and the same PCIe slot.
Asus PE6200


ATI HD750

[Croco]

Well here is what I get out of the Intensity as far as noise. Different computer, different mainboard, different cable, different source. The noise seems to be consistent still. It has to be part of the cards firmware or what it does.

Here is a still using a spare laptop as video output, dark likely because of the poor s-video levels on the thing. Still, the noise is consistent with the other computer and captures. It's alot more noticeable in motion as it jumps all over the place, hence why I find it annoying.



Auto adjusted levels...


So uhhh... yeah :/ Unfortunately I could not make a animated gif that showed it in motion, it would not show up in it.

danno78 thanks for that... I think I may have stumbled across that page a week ago but forgot about it. I will give it another look. Still the annoying noise issue with the card though, as well as long duration capture desyncs.

Should I look into a ATI 750 card anyways just to try it? (Or find an older 650 card somewhere if its really better?) They are not expensive at all yes.

I'll try a long duration capture with the intensity on this computer just to see if it has the same issue here. I have to go out to return something else anyways so I will be able to leave it running for a while with the laptop.

[jagabo]

In my experience with an Diamond ATI 650 USB 2, it's not just a few frames after a transition where the AGC has problems. Sometimes it goes on for several seconds. Sometimes it just blows out or crushes certain shots. And it's not just the luma channel that has AGC problems. You can see the same thing happening in the chroma channels (more/less saturation).

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/326560-Which-is-better-usb-stick-vhs-cap-or-hd-pvr-...=1#post2023227

The AGC problems are unfortunate since the card is really great in other respects.

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/329016-2001-2010-my-capture-cards-comparison-screen...=1#post2038006

[Croco]

That is a shame, sounds like how the PVR-950Q USB works too. I ran the test DVD on it and with a still image even over 30 seconds, the levels were still slowly adjusting towards the end before another scene change. If you seek back and forth in the captured file the gradual change is much more obvious. Ouch.

If I could solve the timing issue with the Avermedia card, it seems like my best bet so far still.

Edit: Hmm you mention the ATI card is normally oversharp but can be corrected. The Avermedia does not seem to have a control to do such a thing... at least its blanked out in the capture pin for me.

Also I quickly tried to reproduce the steps at http://www.etfinder.net/capturepics/ for the Blackmagic card, unfortunately I could not reproduce his results. He seems to be set on using HuffYUV (which I am not) and I would get incorrect levels showing up regardless of uncompressed, DV compressed, etc. Also, using the same steps with the 2.1 drivers the levels were correct, just changing the drivers to the latest 3.9.4 gave incorrect levels. I'll try to do more tests later to verify just in case.

[Croco]

Since I just took a peek at it before I have to go, it does seem that the Avermedia card is indeed running slightly too fast. I did an hour long test with both drop/insert frames unchecked, and the average framerate was 29.97843 (!)

I put that into vdub, and then tried another capture with drop/insert back on. It took 5 minutes before it dropped a frame that time. Clearly its a speed issue.

I'll try some older drivers later.

[Croco]

Now that I got back to check it, the Intensity Pro captured 3+ hours of video using the laptop as a video source without desync problems. 29.97002 average fps, no dropped or inserted frames! Interesting! I'm trying the same with the AverTV HD as well just to see what happens there.

Another check earlier confirmed the AverTV HD is running a bit too fast. 3+ hours of capture there and the average FPS was 29.98018. The video/audio is out of sync on playback, however if I tell virtualdub to "Set video framerate to match audio duration" under framerate the audio/video is in perfect sync, although the framerate is incorrect now.

More testing... I'll try the laptop + blackmagic card in the original computer as well to verify its a source issue with desync on the intensity pro. Still does not solve the level + noise issue though.

[jagabo]

The slightly over the top levels on the Intensity Pro sample you posted doesn't seem like that big an issue to me. You can always pull it down a little in software afterwards. Are you getting peaks crushed at Y=255 with real world video? The levels in the cartoon cap looked fine.

The noise is still a problem though. Maybe the card just isn't well designed and you're getting noise from the digital section bleeding into the analog section. The noise in the cartoon cap didn't look so bad. Certainly far less than VHS noise.

This guy was having similar problems and tried most of the fixes:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/310423-Could-I-have-gotten-a-bad-blackmagic-intensi...ard-%28pics%29

You might try contacting him to see if he ever found a solution.

[Croco]

The slightly over the top levels on the Intensity Pro sample you posted doesn't seem like that big an issue to me. You can always pull it down a little in software afterwards. Are you getting peaks crushed at Y=255 with real world video? The levels in the cartoon cap looked fine.

The noise is still a problem though. Maybe the card just isn't well designed and you're getting noise from the digital section bleeding into the analog section. The noise in the cartoon cap didn't look so bad. Certainly far less than VHS noise.

This guy was having similar problems and tried most of the fixes:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/310423-Could-I-have-gotten-a-bad-blackmagic-intensi...ard-%28pics%29

You might try contacting him to see if he ever found a solution.

Unfortunately yes, after reviewing some VHS I tried to do with the blackmagic card I was getting blotted out whites (crushed at the top of the waveform monitor) so the levels are unfortunately an issue. I played around with the card some more and they must have done something bad to the latest drivers as when I used Component video with color bars, black was off IRE 0 and white was under IRE 100 (!!!). I'm still going to try reasonably older ones (3.4, 3.51) to see if I get any difference.

As far as the AverTV HD card, better luck using it in my other computer. I'm not sure what is causing the timing issue but despite different drivers on my capture computer the framerate was always way off. I'm trying a capture now on a 2nd computer and the results are significantly better. 1 hour capture and 5 frames inserted, 29.96870 fps... and most importantly 0 dropped. I'll try another one later for much longer with sound to make sure that there is no sound desync with inserted frames. I'm willing to live with this if it will operate reliably as such.

I'll keep working on this to see what more I can dig up.

[Croco]

Hmm sadly no better with the Intensity Pro 3.4 and 3.5.2 drivers.

3.4 has clipped superwhite/superblack as well as being a bit off, the diagonal noise bars are noticeably worse than 3.9.4.
3.5.2 has superwhite/superblack, and while being better than 3.9.4 its still off. Again, the noise bars are much worse than 3.9.4

The reason I'm being a stickler about the noise bars is that they will likely throw any compressor for a loop and likely hurt compression quality.

I'm going to say this card is a bust for now. Maybe the shuttle is built differently... this card is going back though

[Brad]

Have you ruled out your storage system causing the AVerTV drops? It shouldn't be dropping or inserting anything on stable sources.

Though as I mentioned in another thread, I don't recommend it for VHS capture anyway due to the sharpening and massive instability with VCR source.

[NJRoadfan]

I'm going to say this card is a bust for now. Maybe the shuttle is built differently... this card is going back though

Going by what I've read here about the Shuttle, you'd be lucky if it even captures video.

What kind of motherboard/cpu is in the two machines you tried the AVer card in? I never had any bizarre frame rate timing issues. The card may be sensitive to PCIe bus timing or something.

[Croco]

Thank you for your replies

Have you ruled out your storage system causing the AVerTV drops? It shouldn't be dropping or inserting anything on stable sources.

Though as I mentioned in another thread, I don't recommend it for VHS capture anyway due to the sharpening and massive instability with VCR source.

It would be out of sync whether using test capture (not using the disk at all) or normally, also whether compression was used or not. If it is not recommended for capturing VHS I am still without an idea on what to look for as an alternative. What about the ATI TV Wonder 600 that was mentioned? It seems to be pretty good, but is it even sold anymore? I would not be overly worried about lacking a 3D comb filter for composite video at the moment. I see an ATI TV Wonder 600 HD on Amazon and such, but is this the same as the card mentioned here?

Going by what I've read here about the Shuttle, you'd be lucky if it even captures video.

What kind of motherboard/cpu is in the two machines you tried the AVer card in? I never had any bizarre frame rate timing issues. The card may be sensitive to PCIe bus timing or something.

I'll keep that in mind about the Shuttle ^^ I was not planning on buying it for now... maybe once they get the USB 3.0 issues all sorted out.

As far as the framerate issues here are the two systems I used.

Primary capture system (also doubles as my DVR), this is the machine giving me timing issues
- Intel E8400 3.0ghz, 4GB DDR2
- Windows 7 Professional 64-bit (clean install as of a few days ago)
- Gigabyte GA-EG45M-DS2H, Intel G45 Chipset Micro ATX Mainboard, Integrated video
- Various WD disk drives

2nd tested system
- AMD Phenom II X6 1090T 3.2ghz, 8GB DDR3
- Windows 7 Professional 64-bit
- Gigabyte GA-870A-UD3, AMD 870 Chipset Mainboard, nVidia GT 240 video
- Various WD disk drives

Clearly in the 2nd system I was getting far better video timing. The AverTV card was not perfect but far better. The Intensity was 100% spot on (29.97002 avg fps) as well in this machine. Why? I'm not sure yet. I'll try a few things this evening to see if I can figure out what is causing the issue. I did try an nVidia card instead of the integrated video in the capture machine... but it had no effect. Avg fps for an overnight capture 12 hours was 29.97817 and hundreds of dropped frames.

I'll try a better power supply I have, along perhaps a temporary install of XP to see as well. Also check BIOS settings, etc. This issue really puzzles me. If I'm having timing issues with several cards, whatever else I may get will probably have issues as well.

[Brad]

The "600 HD" is the PCIe version but the chip should be the same.

I'm not sure how accurate the Average rate reported in the capture module is. The header for the file captured in the shot below was still written as 30000/1001. Sorry about the letterboxing; the remote for this DVD player appears to have stopped functioning so I can't access the Setup.



Are you only using these for SD capture then? I'd be interested in a comparison of some HD patterns while you still have both cards. One thing I noticed about the AVerTV is that it adds light dither noise when presented with an RGB source over HDMI, as part of the forced downconversion to YUY2.

[Croco]

I made some captures on the AverTV card using my 360 over the weekend, and still saved. I can try posting a few stills if that might help. Not sure what to look for. I put the RMA return for the Intensity earlier today and no longer have it. I don't have to return the AverTV yet until this weekend.

Well the average rate to me seems to be a good indication on whether the resulting video is out of sync. Even if I disable frame drop/insert frames and all resync options when capturing SD on the AverTV, the audio will be noticeably out of sync 2 hours later. Again, if playing back the file and then telling virtualdub to "adjust video fps to match audio length" then the a/v sync is correct but the framerate is yet again off.

As far as only for SD, well having HD capture is a nifty bonus but not something I terribly care about right now. I'll look into the ATI HD 600 to see if I can find one, not terribly available due to its age. It does not have the 3D comb filter but I do not see myself needing composite captures at the moment. The 650 cards seem to have superior composite capture but really bad AGC from the other posts. ATI does not list any detail specs over the newer 750 cards either. If the 750 had better AGC I would not mind one of those either. I just want good S-Video analog captures.

My now ancient BT878 cards wont work in Windows 7, so no go there digging one of those up. No integrated audio capture on those anyways.

Right now its either that or a Canopus DV box.

EDIT: Will I even have to *care* about AGC issues on the ATI cards if I have a TBC anyways? I have one arriving tomorrow.

[Brad]

The HD testing I was talking about would need to be done with a test pattern disc. Oh well.

TBC doesn't really have anything to do with AGC.

EDIT: I've gotten plenty of frame inserts using Test video capture (F7) and default Disk I/O. So I'm not sure if this test mode really removes I/O from the equation even though it doesn't truly write to disk. I can't find any documentation of what it actually does.

[jagabo]

Will I even have to *care* about AGC issues on the ATI cards if I have a TBC anyways? I have one arriving tomorrow.

A TBC won't help with the AGC problems.

[Cauptain]

Get AVERTV HD. HDMI 1080i perfect record with VDUB.

E6600 + Win7 + 8GB = 0 dropped frame.

[NJRoadfan]

Will I even have to *care* about AGC issues on the ATI cards if I have a TBC anyways? I have one arriving tomorrow.

A TBC won't help with the AGC problems.

I will help with comb filtering composite only sources though... assuming the TBC has a 3D comb filter built in and one uses the S-Video out.