PAL vs NTSC Question

[cottage]

I don't really have a problem - just a question for my own education......

Through various sources, I have previously obtained PAL DVDs. Since I live in North America, none of them would play on my NTSC DVD player. (I have converted them to NTSC with varying degrees of success.)

On a recent trip to Australia, I had the opportunity to purchase a trip video. I asked the videographer if she could produce it in NTSC format (rather than PAL) and she said she couldn't but had never had anyone in North American that had a problem playing her videos. I reluctantly purchased the video with the intention of converting it when I returned home.

Well, SURPRISE, SURPRISE! The PAL video played correctly on my NTSC DVD player.

I'm wondering if anyone might have any idea why this video would have played but others will not.

The properties of the video are:
MPEG 2
24 bits
720x576
16:9 aspect ratio
Data rate VBR (8K max)
I believe that the video was produced on a Mac (i.e Mac logo on the lower right of the intro) but I don't know which program was used.

[noemi7]

Most official releases have set specific region code, and if your DVD player doesn't support multi region, it won't play a disc issued in Europe (region 2). Home made discs are by default region free but of course it's possible to limit them as well.

If a disc is not copy protected, you may try to copy it to HD, and remove region code in PgcEdit.

[Noahtuck]

Well the first thing that comes to mind is because it was a self produced video & from the sound of it, it was a burned dvd.

So your player or tv will accept/play PAL format but your player is region locked.

Retail pressed dvd's are region coded, self produced & burned dvdr's are not.

Being produced on a MAC has absolutely NOTHING to do with it!!

If a disc is not copy protected, you may try to copy it to HD, and remove region code in PgcEdit.

Regardless if a disc is copy protected or not, by ripping it with one of the couple of tools that remove the copy protection, or by ripping period there is NO need to use PgcEdit to change region coding

Never ever in my years of ripping and backing up have i ever had to use any extra step to remove region coding besides just ripping and burning back.

Using PgcEdit is just adding an extra step NOT needed to remove region coding.

Better yet, just find a hack or code to change the region on your standalone player, if there is none, buy a better player that allows removing or changing the region code.
And better does not always mean expensive.

[jagabo]

You have two issues:

1) Region codes. The DVD world is broken into several regions. DVD players are not supposed to play DVDs from other regions. For example, a North American DVD player is not supposed to play DVDs from Europe. Commercial DVDs are usually region coded. Home made DVDR usually isn't. Some players can be region unlocked so they will play DVDs from any region.

2) PAL vs NTSC. Many North American players will not play PAL discs correctly. North American TV usually can't display PAL signals either. So you need a DVD player that can play PAL discs and convert to NTSC while playing.

[Noahtuck]

You have two issues:

1) Region codes. The DVD world is broken into several regions. DVD players are not supposed to play DVDs from other regions. For example, a North American DVD player is not supposed to play DVDs from Europe. Commercial DVDs are usually region coded. Home made DVDR usually isn't. Some players can be region unlocked so they will play DVDs from any region.

2) PAL vs NTSC. Many North American players will not play PAL discs correctly. North American TV usually can't display PAL signals either. So you need a DVD player that can play PAL discs and convert to NTSC while playing.

Actually he does not have the second issue because he stated he can play the burned PAL dvd he brought home from australia.

[KBeee]

Sounds to me like this DVD, being a trip souvenir, would naturally be manufactured region free. It'd be pointless trying to sell DVD's to tourists that are locked to be unplayable back home.
Also I guess your DVD player can read PAL disks, and probably outputs an NTSC signal that your TV can handle (or it outputs PAL and you have a really good TV that can handle the PAL signal). The reason your other PAL DVD's didn't play seems to be purely because they are region 2 locked, but your DVD player hasn't been made region free.

[cottage]

Thank-you everyone for all of your answers.

A couple of additional points.....

My TV is a pretty good set - Pioneer PRO-151FD (60" plasma).
My DVD Player is also pretty good - Pioneer DVR-520H

None of the other PAL DVDs that I have received have been region locked. They were all home made recordings from British TV. This may be a "no-no" to say in this forum but many of the other DVDs have been torrent downloads of PAL DVDs that have had copy protection and region codes removed. None of them have every played on this system unless converted to NTSC.

That's why I'm curious as to the reason this one played!

[jman98]

None of the other PAL DVDs that I have received have been region locked. They were all home made recordings from British TV. This may be a "no-no" to say in this forum but many of the other DVDs have been torrent downloads of PAL DVDs that have had copy protection and region codes removed. None of them have every played on this system unless converted to NTSC.

That's why I'm curious as to the reason this one played!

Something is wrong in your understanding of what is going on. There's nothing magical about this PAL DVD you got from Australia that plays. Possible reasons would include the Australian DVD actually being NTSC, the torrent downloads NOT having region coding removed (I have seen this done before, although I admit it is rare) and it could simply be a media issue. Further along the media lines, it could even be a DVD-5 vs. DVD-9 thing or simply that the Australian DVD you got is on good media and what you download is burned to crap media, or that what you downloaded is corrupted, and so on. Unfortunately you're probably never going to have an answer to this riddle. If I or others here were able to physically look at your discs and your setup I'm sure we could give you a rational explanation for why A works but B doesn't, but all we can do from a distance is make wild guesses.

Do note that it is incredibly easy to corrupt torrents. All it takes is one guy in the chain of downloaders to have something go wrong on his PC and get the torrent corrupted and then everybody who downloads from him gets a corrupted copy which they pass on to others. Before long you've got a situation where almost everyone with the torrent has a corrupted copy and the original downloaders, who may no longer be making it available, are the only ones with clean copies.

[Noahtuck]

If I or others here were able to physically look at your discs and your setup I'm sure we could give you a rational explanation for why A works but B doesn't, but all we can do from a distance is make wild guesses.

Yeah not a lot to add to what jman98 said.

If you have an older or crappy player that is dvdr intolerant, only likes certain types of media, - or +, crappy media, the way they were authored, ripped, ect.

[cottage]

I don't necessarily want to turn this question/thread into a "shaggy dog story" but I have previously had many PAL DVDs from various sources. I'm familiar with region locking and none of them have been region locked. It seems to me unlikely that all of them would have been corrupted torrents (maybe some but not all). Even so, those PAL torrents that wouldn't play were converted to NTSC and they did play. Admittedly, some of them were a little jerky probably because the process that I used inserted the extra frames in an inelegant manner.

Regarding the possibility of having a "crappy" DVD player that is intolerant of DVD-Rs....
I never say never. However, I believe that my DVD player is pretty good quality. It is a DVD recorder and I have burned well over 200 DVDs either on the DVD-R or on the computer and never had a problem other than the PAL issue.

Oh well, I may never know.

[jagabo]

Why don't you just look at the VOB files with something like GSpot and see if they are PAL or NTSC?

[Noahtuck]

Well, there are only a couple of reasons it would play one PAL dvd and not another

I've never had this problem as all the dvd players i have purchased specifically for playing PAL & NTSC dvd's here in NTSC land have played each format i have thrown in them.

[noemi7]

Very strange. I may guess only one potential reason: if your other DVDs are sourced from DVB-S or T captures they may have incorrect video bitrate header (around 15 000 kbps) and MP2 audio stream only. Usually the header is no an issue for new players as the BBC stream in fact has real bitrate between 2500 - 5500 kbps, and equipment recognises it correctly.

I red that some players produced for the US market may have problem with MP2 if there is no secondary AC3 or PCM stream, at least as a menu background - in other words AC3 or PCM has to be "somewhere"

I made thousand PAL DVB-S DVDs (life music), and I have never had complaints that they don't play on equipment that supports PAL. However, I always include AC3 audio, just in case.

We don't have such problems in Europe, as the equipment plays anything :P

[jagabo]

some players produced for the US market may have problem with MP2 if there is no secondary AC3 or PCM stream

Yes, I've seen a few players like this. They did play the DVDs but with jerky video and audio.

[Noahtuck]

some players produced for the US market may have problem with MP2 if there is no secondary AC3 or PCM stream

Yes, I've seen a few players like this.

I personally have never had this problem even though i know it is not in the spec's and that some people/players have had a problem.

I was thinking that also, but the only time i had an audio problem because of MP2 audio, was when someone authored a dvd and half of the 10 titles had MP2 audio & half had AC3 audio, the player reported it all as being AC3 but when i demuxed the entire thing and started really digging into it, i finally figured out the problem.

Someone had used that authoring program by powerdvd, or something like that, and it did not actually convert the audio, just made it so they were reported as all the same format, so only half the episodes had audio

Whats really F#*D UP is when someone takes an NTSC source, captures it and authors it as NTSC but uses MP2 audio
That always made me wonder where their heads were.... well, for about a half a second anyways!!

[lordsmurf]

I'm too lazy to convert the MP2 audio to AC3, and it might lose quality, and it plays on most players anyway. That's for personal use, of course. Anything for work is by the books 100%.

[jagabo]

Whats really F#*D UP is when someone takes an NTSC source, captures it and authors it as NTSC but uses MP2 audio

Actually, the players I was referring to were playing NTSC discs with MP2 audio. I think a lot of people ended up doing this because TMPGEnc used to output MP2 audio if you didn't buy the AC3 plugin. I was one of them!

[Noahtuck]

Whats really F#*D UP is when someone takes an NTSC source, captures it and authors it as NTSC but uses MP2 audio

Actually, the players I was referring to were playing NTSC discs with MP2 audio. I think a lot of people ended up doing this because TMPGEnc used to output MP2 audio if you didn't buy the AC3 plugin. I was one of them!

Yeah i know, i was just saying the only time i had a problem with MP2 audio on an NTSC player was when someone mixed it with AC3 or why people would make an NTSC dvd with only MP2 audio.

[cottage]

Why don't you just look at the VOB files with something like GSpot and see if they are PAL or NTSC?

I did. That's how I found out that it was:
MPEG 2
24 bits
720x576
16:9 aspect ratio
Data rate VBR (8K max)

Therefore PAL.

[jman98]

I did. That's how I found out that it was:
MPEG 2
24 bits
720x576
16:9 aspect ratio
Data rate VBR (8K max)

Therefore PAL.

Well, listing the frames per second would also have been nice. I assume 25 fps, but I'd like to know what it is. And just what the hell does "24 bits" mean? Seriously. Anybody know? I have no idea at all what this means in terms of video.

Anyway, others have suggested reasons why you've had PAL issues, but unless you're willing to make copies of your DVDs and mail them to somebody for examination, it's still just speculation on our part. Pioneer DVD players are very good, but they are also fussy about specs. I could see your problem DVDs having MP2 audio and Pioneer barfing on it, as some suggested. And I was NOT talking about your DVD player being crappy. I was suggesting that your media might be crappy.

[cottage]

I did. That's how I found out that it was:
MPEG 2
24 bits
720x576
16:9 aspect ratio
Data rate VBR (8K max)

Therefore PAL.

Well, listing the frames per second would also have been nice. I assume 25 fps, but I'd like to know what it is. And just what the hell does "24 bits" mean? Seriously. Anybody know? I have no idea at all what this means in terms of video.

Anyway, others have suggested reasons why you've had PAL issues, but unless you're willing to make copies of your DVDs and mail them to somebody for examination, it's still just speculation on our part. Pioneer DVD players are very good, but they are also fussy about specs. I could see your problem DVDs having MP2 audio and Pioneer barfing on it, as some suggested. And I was NOT talking about your DVD player being crappy. I was suggesting that your media might be crappy.

It sounds like I've offended you. Sorry. I didn't mean to do that.

...and yes, it 25 fps. I should have but forgot to include that. (Maybe I unconsciously assumed that the 576 in "720x576" confirmed that it was PAL.) Anyway - my bad.

Regarding the media. I understand the possibility of bad media. However, I've burned many, many DVDs with a wide variety of media. Only on one occasion did I get a stack of lousy DVD media and threw it out. Otherwise, I've not had a problem where the common element has been the media.

Regarding the 24 bits. I also don't know what this means. (In other instances, it refers to colour depth.) It was one of the items listed when I looked at the properties of the VOB file. I included it just in case it was pertinent.

[themaster1]

DVD (mpeg2) color space = YCrCb = 1 "channel" for the luma, 2 channels for the colors, red & blue respectively.
1 channel = 8 bits
3 x 8 = 24 bits

simple no?

[cottage]

For what it's worth, here's the result of a little more playing & investigating.

Last night, I had a potential "light bulb" moment. Last year, I upgraded my TV from a 57" Sony rear projection to the Pioneer PRO-151FD. I don't really remember but it's probable that I haven't attempted to play a PAL DVD using the new TV. I likely assumed that since it didn't work on the old TV, it wouldn't work on the new TV. It has been my understanding that PAL & NTSC will work on European DVD players & TVs but only NTSC will work in North America.

As a test, I downloaded (torrent) a PAL DVD, burned it to a DVD disc and tried it.

Well, Glory Be, it works!!!!!!

I looked over the specs for both my DVD Recorder and the TV. The TV manual only mentions NTSC (and only under the OTA tuner section). The DVD recorder makes no mention of either NTSC or PAL. I then did some Googling on my TV & DVD Recorder and PAL. The only relevant hits that I got seemed to indicate that my DVD Recorder doesn't do PAL and can't be hacked to do so. I see no mention of my TV & PAL. (The European Pioneer models have a different model number.)

So......
PAL seems to work but I don't know why. I'll continue to see if future PAL DVDs also work.

The only assumption that I can make is that the DVD Recorder outputs what ever is on the DVD (PAL or NTSC). My old TV couldn't handle PAL but the Component input on my new TV will handle PAL)

In the meantime, if anyone else out there has a Pioneer PRO-151FD, I'd appreciate hearing about any experience that you've had with PAL DVDs.

[jagabo]

Can your HDTV show you the input signal type? The remote for my Samsung has an Info button which will show the frame size and frame rate.

[cottage]

Can your HDTV show you the input signal type? The remote for my Samsung has an Info button which will show the frame size and frame rate.

If it does, I haven't figured out how to do it yet. (I just had a look through the manual and don't see that option.)

[themaster1]

DVD (mpeg2) color space = YCrCb = 1 "channel" for the luma, 2 channels for the colors, red & blue respectively.
1 channel = 8 bits
3 x 8 = 24 bits

simple no?

Lol i wasn't "in my shoes" when i wrote this, i just realised my mistake

8bits per component that's for RGB not YCrCb
YCrCb in mpeg (standard dvd) that's 4.2.0

I'm not sure why you get "24bits" but someone will enlighten us i'm sure

[cottage]

Can your HDTV show you the input signal type? The remote for my Samsung has an Info button which will show the frame size and frame rate.

This thread is getting a little long in the tooth. However, just in case anyone happens to find it in an attempt to solve a problem of their own, here is the final resolution.....

I was fiddling around with my a/v equipment for another reason and tripped over the resolution to my question. When I upgraded my A/V system, I also upgraded my tuner/amp. I now have a Denon 3808. I looked that the video format information from the Denon "Information" menu and find that the input to the Denon is 576i and the output is 1080p. The Denon receiver is great. I knew that it upscaled NTSC video but I wasn't aware that it would also upscale and convert PAL to NTSC. (I'm aware that 1080p isn't really NTSC. It's an HD standard)

Therefore, my Pioneer DVD player is able to read and output PAL 576i and the Denon receiver converts it to 1080p which the TV accepts.

Thank-you to everyone who offered help.