Transferring VHS to DVD

[Scotty427]

Like many others, I want to transfer my old VHS tapes to DVD. I have spent some hours today reading about the issue on this forum, and it seems the best way to do it and with what machine "depends." It sounds like the Panasonic AG-1970, AG-1980, or even the AG-7650 have their proponents as does the JVC-9000 series. There were also some recommendations regarding the more recent, but short-lived(?), DVHS machines from Mitsubishi and JVC.

I have Panasonic PVS-4990 that recorded in VHS quite well, but it has a problem with a "jungle board" and no one seems to have the parts anymore. It has TBC and all of that good stuff. I paid over $1200 for it new, but right now it is a paper weight. So, now I am looking for an S-VHS machine that will do a similar job. Many of my tapes were recorded on that machine but not very many in S-VHS because the S-tapes cost so much more in those days and the regular VHS out that machine was so derned good. I used the high quality Maxell VHS tapes in those days.

Just about all of my 200+ tapes were recorded in VHS (not S-VHS) on Panasonic machines in the "LP" mode, which gave four hours of record time. Most of the tapes are movies. I plan to record them onto DVD using a Panasonic DMR-EH55 and view them on a Sony KDS-R60XBR1 HDTV. I am looking for an S-VHS model so I can output the best signal possible into the DVR even though they were not recorded in S-VHS. Is that the right approach? Also, I am thinking that I might need to go with a Panasonic brand because of recording almost exclusively in the LP speed and maybe other machines don't support that speed. Does the JVC 9000 series support LP speed and if so, correctly?

So, there are the specifics. Now to reopen the controversy. Which VCR should I try to acquire for my situation? Also, is there any hope of getting my PVS-4990 fixed? I am at a dead end.

Thanks,

Scotty427

[orsetto]

Your PVS-4990 was a gorgeous (and expensive) high-performance machine but unfortunately was based on a rather flimsy Panasonic consumer VCR chassis, which as you've discovered no one can repair anymore. Since you are used to the 4990, you will probably want to stick to another later Panasonic with similar playback qualities. I would suggest an AG-1980 over the older AG-1970: if you're going to buy another VCR, it may as well show some improvement over the old one. The AG1970 performs too similarly to the PVS4990, including the 4990's tendency to occasional "chroma flicker" as its primitive color noise processor tries to cope with occasional tape mistracking or dropouts. The later AG1980 has a much more sophisticated chroma processor that NEVER flickers: its color tracking is rock solid and provides the best compromise between color noise reduction and realistic detail that I've ever seen. AG1980s are more available and more reasonably priced than they've ever been: check eBay and Craigs List. Most of them are missing the remote, no problem because your PVS4990 remote will operate it just fine. Prices run from $150-300 for a good used one, or expect to pay $1300 for "new old stock" in sealed box.

An alternative to the AG1980 that many people overlook is the AG5710. This is the "pro edit suite" version of the AG1980: it has the same chassis, the same features as the AG1980. It shows up every now and then as smaller production houses go out of business and liquidate their assets. There are only three differences between the AG5710 and the AG1980: the 5710 cannot be operated by wireless remote, it accepts a different "pro" edit controller via RS232 interface, and it has no front panel line inputs. Otherwise it is the same as the AG1980, and occasionally sells for much less when buyers/sellers are unaware of what it is.

[deuce8pro]

Having used the AG1980. I do not like the picture it gives off and I dont like the adjustable sharp/soft picture. The only way to clean the picture with that machine is to completely soften the picture. The one redeeming thing about that unit is it plays back tapes very stable. But that isnt a good enough reason to use the unit.

No matter what VCR you buy. I strongly suggest it be one with a s-video input so you can use a s-video wire. It will seperate the colors and give you a better image. I recommend AR Pro II series, as I use them and they are great
and very inexpensive on ebay.

Also know that before you put a single tape to dvd, you must correct the black level. Some recorders can do that but the JVC recorder I use doesnt. So what I would suggest is for you to use your Panasonic as a pass through (instead of a recorder) to a JVC which you can find one inexpensive im sure on ebay.

As much as certain experts here would rather have a very grainy image then a cleaned up one. You have to clean up your tapes.

[2Bdecided]

200+ movies recorded in LP mode?

I bet you can buy many of them very cheaply on DVD now! Not to mention that once you start watching HD content, VHS LP is going to look even more painfully bad.

For the ones you still want to salvage, be aware that with old LP tapes, it's not a matter of getting the bast VCR you can afford - that VCR might not play them very well at all. It's more important to get a VCR that plays those tapes well.

Cheers,
David.

[davideck]

It all depends on source, setup, and expectations. Optimizing the signal path (setup) for any given tape (source) will provide the best picture quality (expectations).

Something to consider about video is that it is fundamentally an electrical signal. It has timing characteristics, frequency characteristcs, signal-to-noise characteristcs, etc, that will be affected by each component along the signal path. Think of a video source as if it were a very high quality audio source. Signal modification, if necessary, should be kept to a minimum, because distortion can be added at every stage. Noisy and/or marginal source tapes can benefit from various types of signal restoration, but this same processing can also hamper the preservation of better quality sources.

Consider these two signal paths;

1) JVC S-VHS VCR with TBC/DNR ON -> DataVideo TBC -> JVC DVD Recorder
2) Conventional S-VHS VCR -> Philips 3575 DVD Recorder

While signal path 1 provides more restoration capabilies, it includes 3 TBC stages, 2 mandatory noise reduction stages, and 2 frame synchronizer stages.

Signal path 2 includes 1 TBC and 1 frame synchronizer.

It should be noted that the timebase correction performance of both signal paths is similar, and frame synchronization need only be done once. Noise reduction is a personal preference balancing image improvement with additional artifacts.

Which signal path provides the better picture? That is a subjective judgement based on personal expectations which may vary from tape to tape. However, there should be no question that signal path 2 provides a more transparent path for preserving the various characteristics of the original signal.

Are you wanting to restore, or are you wanting to preserve?

[orsetto]

Sigh. No one can ever make a simple recommendation here without qualifying the living hell out of it.

So here we go with mine: when I recommended the AG1980 to this poster it was with due consideration of what he's already been using (the 4990). Of the available options, the Panasonic AG1980 is likely to be the unit best able to play his 200+ LP Panasonic-recorded tapes with the least amount of trouble. LP tapes are a bitch and a half to transfer, because most VHS decks mfr'd after the introduction of the SLP speed are actively hostile to LP playback, especially JVCs. The AG1980 will lock down the tracking and reduce color smear as much as possible *for LP tapes previously recorded on older Panasonic decks*. The AG1980 is not perfect: its "cleaning" circuits cannot be turned totally off, so it is not ideal for every tape. IN THIS CASE, I believe its particular combination of strengths and weaknesses would be the best compromise. Those looking for the "perfect" VHS deck to transfer VHS need to take all our recommendations here with a BOULDER of salt: this is an extremely subjective topic which is highly dependent on the individual's tape collection and the DVD recorder they are using. It is good to remember there are really only TWO types of high-end VHS cleaning methods: JVC-style, which is found on JVC units and the Mitsubishi DVHS, and Panasonic-style, which is on the AG1970, 1980, and 5710. ALL OF THEM mess with the picture in some way, they clean some noise and introduce other artifacts. If you have many hundreds of tapes, you will need one of each type: there are things an AG1980 can do that a JVC 9911 cannot, and vice versa. And in some rare cases, NONE of these expensive decks will play a tape as well as an inexpensive older VHS similar to the one used to make the original tapes. Some here on VH refuse to believe this, and prefer to tinker with an assortment of more picayune hardware to achieve the same result: that feeling is based on *their* eyeballs and *their* expertise with *their* hardware and tapes. It is wise to average out all our responses here, because we're all biased in some way. And many of us have changed our minds after trying different hardware. Nothing is set in stone.

I have not heard any complaints about the Panasonic DMR-EH55 having black level problems, so I don't think the poster needs to worry about that. The whole point of the EH55 is its hard drive, using it to "correct" an older non-HDD JVC would be like using a Ferrari to pull a trailer carrying a Volkswagen Beetle? Why should this poster not use his brand new EH55 to record from his LP tapes? JVC made some fine DVD recorders in 2005 but they are outmoded now, and they are *especially* unsuited to transferring LP VHS: they will encode too soft. I have used JVC DVD recorders extensively, and still keep one for occasional special purposes, but I would not under any circumstances recommend someone seek one out second hand unless they ALREADY had experience with one or needed a replacement. They are not for neophytes. The DMR-EH55 is not the greatest DVD recorder out there, but it is a decent unit in good company. I would not use it to make direct 1:1 four-hour DVDs from LP VHS tapes: instead I'd transfer the tapes to the EH55's hard drive in SP (two-hour) speed and burn two separate DVDs from each LP tape. Blank DVDs are cheap enough, so don't take chances making 4-hour-speed DVDs.

2Bdecided gave the best advice yet: no matter what you do, those LP recordings are going to look horrible on your 60-inch Sony display. If you can just buy up those catalog titles on studio DVD at $8.95 a pop, you might be a lot happier in the long run. You may be one of the lucky ones whose mind-eye coordination can resolve watchable enjoyment of poor recordings on a modern flat-panel display, but for most of us its unpleasant.

[Scotty427]

Thanks for everyone's expertise. I am happy that I found this forum.

Orsetto is right on about the PVS-4990 chassis. I was forever having problems with the inject/eject mechanism. It has a lot of monkey motion going on and took forever to be ready to play/record when a tape was inserted. I probably had it repaired four times under warrantee. There were no problems with the mechanisms after that.

Notwithstanding the pluses for the JVC machines, I am leaning towards the Panasonic AG-1980 primarily because of compatibility with the LP mode that I used for recording on Panasonic VCRs over the years (also a 1981 RCA, my first VCR). I am just interested in getting as good a copy as I can without making a career out of it.

Orsetto, your suggestion re: transferring tapes to the hard drive first in SP mode and then onto two DVD's is a good one. However, let me ask this. From what I have read, the SP and LP mode on the Panasonic DVRs is almost the same quality (like about 450 lines?) and it is one of the reasons that I bought the E55, knowing that my tapes were recorded in the LP mode also, and mostly on Panasonic VCRs. What is anyone's take on that?

Regarding the AG-1980, what year was it first produced? Can they be repaired if necessary, i.e., are parts available.....in contrast to my PVS-4990, which needs a "jungle board' whatever that is?

Scotty

[lordsmurf]

If "preserving" preserves the noise too, then I think that's a poor excuse for a conversion. At very least, remove the damned chroma noise. There's nothing subjective about red/blue misty crap in your image. It's bad, period. Other noise (grain) and sharpness are the only things that are subjective. It's not all subjective, and by no means should chroma noise be preserved for any reason whatsoever.

As far as the original question goes, get a Panasonic AG-1970 or 1980. That's my suggestion for this exact scenario.

[deuce8pro]

Even though I have a lot of respect for Lordsmurf, Orsetto, and daviddeck I cannot disagree with them more about recommending the Panasonic AG1980. Ive given my reasons already. I wish I paid a little more attention to the original posters exact scenario. I have to agree with 2Bdecided, you should search out for those movies on DVD already before you consider converting them to DVD. But if you do have stuff you recorded on VHS that hasnt been officially released. Consider a JVC SVHS deck with TBC/DNR, Pro grade S-Video wires, a Panasonic ES10, a Digital8 or minidv camera with analog to digital pass through, and a JVC DRM100 DVD recorder for encoding.

[lordsmurf]

My concern with the JVC is the LP mode. If a "Panasonic tracking" has been used the entire time, stick with it.

Indeed, buy the DVDs if these are officially available. Used ones are cheap, both on Amazon and eBay. Or even local stores or Walmart.

[davideck]

It's not all subjective, and by no means should chroma noise be preserved for any reason whatsoever.

If it were possible to remove only noise without affecting the rest of the signal, then of course I would agree. But it is not. Noise Reduction trades off one set of artifacts for another. Picking the "less objectionable" set by turning NR on or off is a subjective choice.

[orsetto]

deuce8pro has been disappointed with the AG1980 vs JVC-type vcrs. I understand exactly where he is coming from and I agree the AG1980 can make some things look a little "weird". But so can a JVC.

There are certain "over-ride" scenarios that will lend themselves to using equipment we may not necessarily prefer under all circumstances. 200+ LP speed tapes, all recorded by Panasonics, is one of these scenarios. When deciding between an AG-1980 or a JVC for such tapes, additional concerns enter the equation that would not be important otherwise. The key issue here is that JVC was absolutely *furious* when Panasonic defied them and agreed to mfr 4-hr/LP capable VHS decks for RCA (never mind that this single-handedly won the war over Beta within a matter of months- had Sony done this when RCA went to them first, VHS would never have gotten off the ground.) Because of this entrenched opposition, JVC came out with SLP/6hr and intentionally made their units play LP tapes for sh*t (in fact many earlier JVCs don't play LP at all- only SP and SLP). Here and there you'll find a JVC that does a passable job, but they really do not track LP tapes well: they often add a pronounced jitter that cannot be removed, and artificial 'dropouts'.

Because of this, and despite its potential for "weird" playback, the Panasonic AG1980 would be a far better choice than any JVC for a large collection of Panny-recorded LP tapes. The AG1980 has an unbelievably solid tracking system and its TBC/DNR will clear jitter, chroma and luma noise completely from LP tapes (a JVC would add noise). deuce8pro is likely worried you will get faint diagonal 'interference' lines in some portions of the picture and that the overall look of the image will be slightly artificial or plastic-looking due to some detail being removed along with noise. I would argue that while this is certainly possible and unwelcome, the reduction in color noise and stabilized tracking/jitter totally overwhelm these possible artifacts * in your specific case*. Even at its best, the LP speed was a rushed, slapdash compromise to satisfy a marketing need and tapes recorded at that speed are so lame to begin with that the minor artifacts introduced by an AG1980 will have minimal impact compared to the improvements.

The AG1980 was a very popular unit, produced throughout the 1990s, it uses a transport design that was put in many other models worldwide for many years. It is still repairable, much more so than a consumer Panasonic. BTW, do not try to save money by opting for an AG1970 over the pricier AG1980. They look identical but are very different internally. While the AG1970 is actually a much sturdier deck mechanically (they are nearly indestructible), its noise reduction is essentially ineffective for chroma issues, in fact the AG1970 has about the worst chroma performance I've ever seen. The AG1980 has circuits an order of magnitude better than the AG190, although they err in the opposite direction by being a little "too much" and they cannot be turned completely off. Still, for certain really difficult tapes the AG1980 will give an "acceptable" result that is not really possible with a JVC system. Again, let me clarify that is not a knock against JVC, because the reverse is also true: a JVC can "fix" playback on many tapes that don't work so well in a Panasonic. We each need to assess our particular tape issues and use both systems as necessary, assuming we can manage to afford or borrow both.

As a further aside, just to illustrate how random this whole transfer business can be, the "inferior" AG1970 actually aces the "superior" AG1980 for some tapes, and I never know until trial-and-error reveals it. Although the AG1970 is much noisier in the chroma, it has a far greater range of detail boost and cut. There have been quite a few of my tapes that benefitted from this detail adjustment, which was more important to me than the chroma issue in those cases. Also, the "inferior" TBC in the AG1970 is the ONLY solution I have found that would fix a dozen or so nearly-unwatchable tapes I have. It operates in a different way than the TBC in the AG1980, so it can work miracles on some recordings that the AG1980 "overcompensates". Strange, but true.

The whole damn process is enough to make you pull every last hair out of your head (after it empties your wallet). For every "general rule" we agree on, there are a dozen exceptions. Maddening. In a way, Scotty427 is fortunate in that he has a fairly consistent run of tapes to transfer, it could simplify things for him.

[lordsmurf]

That's my point -- it's impossible to "preserve" the signal.

You have two choices:
1. SIGNAL + NOISE
2. SIGNAL - NOISE

There is not an option "3. SIGNAL". That one does not exist from VHS.

Your only choice is the degree to which noise is removed, but even that has its limits. Some functions are fundamentally tied to others.

"Lost detail" (if it happens) can be compensated for with additional filters. But red/blue muck on screen is only removed by several methods that will affect (but not destroy) the signal -- often near-invisibly. The only time I can see a need to "preserve" a signal is for legal matters, to show before/after of restored video in a courtroom, to prove the improvements are solely for quality, and were not altered in one way or another factually.

I just really learned to hate chroma errors as year went by, especially because they would compound on subsequent copies from the master. Even commercial releases had a lot of chroma noise.

[lordsmurf]

"that the minor artifacts introduced by an AG1980 will have minimal impact compared to the improvements. "

This is the kind of statement made by folks who truly understand restoration. 8)

It's a system of trade-offs until you arrive at the lesser of evils. No hardware or software will do everything, nor can every errors be removed completely and seamlessly. It just isn't so.

"Scotty427 is fortunate in that he has a fairly consistent run of tapes to transfer"

Indeed!

[orsetto]

From what I have read, the SP and LP mode on the Panasonic DVRs is almost the same quality (like about 450 lines?) and it is one of the reasons that I bought the E55, knowing that my tapes were recorded in the LP mode also, and mostly on Panasonic VCRs. What is anyone's take on that?

There is fierce debate on the Panasonic DVD LP/4hr qualities. Some think it is astoundingly good, even better than SP, while others think those Panny fans are lunatic cultists who must have cataracts. On the whole, in general, it is a bad idea to ever archive anything VHS much above 2hrs/SP per DVD on ANY recorder. DVD media is not perfect, the more hours you shoehorn onto a disc the greater risk you run of defects rendering the disc unplayable on some machines, or it being affected by aging. Unless you're recording "Gone With The Wind" or the SuperBowl directly off-air, stick to SP whenever possible or practical. Burning video DVDs has become a dead practice, and media mfrs are cutting corners all over the place, so the less stress you put on each disc the better.

[davideck]

You have two choices:
1. SIGNAL + NOISE
2. SIGNAL - NOISE

There is not an option "3. SIGNAL". That one does not exist from VHS.

The choices are;

1. original signal + noise (preservation emphasis)
2. altered signal - noise (restoration emphasis)

Option 3. original signal - noise (ideal) is not obtainable.

Take your pick.

[CogoSWSDS]

Davideck's 3 options sound like what we say in the computer industry:
There are three attributes to computer software development:
1. Good
2. Fast
3. Cheap.
Choose any two. If it's good and fast, it's not gonna be cheap. If it's good and cheap, it's not gonna be fast, and finally, if it's fast and cheap, it's not gonna be good.

CogoSWSDS

[lordsmurf]

You have two choices:
1. SIGNAL + NOISE
2. SIGNAL - NOISE

There is not an option "3. SIGNAL". That one does not exist from VHS.

The choices are;

1. original signal + noise (preservation emphasis)
2. altered signal - noise (restoration emphasis)

Option 3. original signal - noise (ideal) is not obtainable.

Take your pick.

Agree.

[deuce8pro]

I recorded many a tape on a Panasonic vhs vcr mostly in SP mode.
I rarely used LP mode.

As much as its important to track and stabilize these tapes that were recorded in LP mode, they also must be cleaned up. When it comes
to cleaning up these tapes, I think the JVC does a better job then the AG1980. In order to clean up tapes with that deck, you have to set the sharp/soft control all the way to soft. Completely softening the image.

I think as far as the losing detail subject. I disagree. You must use NR in producing these dvds.
But you also must use the best s-video cables you can find to give off as much detail as possible and then use an encoder like the DRm100 or whichever to clean up as much of the noise as possible. Of course, correcting the black level first.

[deuce8pro]

deuce8pro has been disappointed with the AG1980 vs JVC-type vcrs. I understand exactly where he is coming from and I agree the AG1980 can make some things look a little "weird". But so can a JVC.

This is where I strongly disagree. I dont think the JVC makes a tape look weird.
It cant play every tape you put into it. But I still dont think the AG1980 should be an option.

deuce8pro is likely worried you will get faint diagonal 'interference' lines in some portions of the picture and that the overall look of the image will be slightly artificial or plastic-looking due to some detail being removed along with noise.

Quite the opposite. I think noise should be removed from the signal. Any lines through the playback picture is gonna look bad. I think theres gonna be a quite a few lines in LP recorded tapes.

[orsetto]

Apparently this is one of those instances where deuce8pro and I will have to agree to disagree. We have vastly different experiences with the same hardware, which is not all that surprising given different tapes, displays, even AC power quality. I have used two AG1980s and two AG5710s, with the results I posted. My impression of the AG1980/5710 is the polar opposite of deuce8pro: in my opinion their "sharpness/detail" slider has next to no range: it goes from mush to normal to slightly sharpened with no gradations in between. So I leave it in the middle at all times, and at all times the units clear chroma and luma noise as well as my JVC9911 and Mitsubishi DVHS. In my use I see absolutely NO difference in "cleaning" ability between the Panasonic and JVC systems, the difference is more subtle and mostly in terms of mechanical tape interactions like jitter and tracking plus a slight but noticeable difference in tradeoffs between noise reduction and pictorial realism. Of the hundreds of varied tapes I've transferred so far, 40% play better on a Panasonic, 40% play better on a JVC/MGA, and 20% play better on a standard, low-end VCR with no cleaning circuits at all. Every VCR that employs good noise reduction forces a tradeoff of artifacts: the Panasonic system can randomly add artificial texture to some scenes, and the JVC system can add distracting motion artifacts. Depending on the tape, I choose the rock or the hard place. Neither is ideal.

[2Bdecided]

I'd like to agree with lordsmurf - colour noise should be nuked somewhere - either in hardware or software. It eats bitrate, and whereas denoising luma is a careful trade off where going too far is easily visible, VHS chroma is already dramatically lower resolution, and they eye is quite insensitive to this.

Whereas I think you need to keep some luma noise to avoid plasticy looking pictures, but you need to be careful as this will also eat bits on a DVD.

I tweak all this in software, but probably wouldn't be so picky with an LP source.

Cheers,
David.

[lordsmurf]

Very good catch! I often forget the chroma values are half or less than the luma values. Removing chroma noise does not have to affect the "primary resolution" (luma) of the source.

[davideck]

whereas denoising luma is a careful trade off where going too far is easily visible, VHS chroma is already dramatically lower resolution, and they eye is quite insensitive to this.

This is a strong argument for noise reducing in software, where you can tweak the luma and chroma processing separately. Preserve the luminance and restore the chrominance.

[vhelp]

Evening everyone.

Yes, but lets not forget another side to this, the destination codec or format.. ie, MPEG-2/DVD or XviD or the new H264.

I've seen many of times where people (and they still do this to this day) try and cram a 2 hour movie onto a 4.3g (signle layer) dvd disc. Then, when they see weird stuff going on, they can't figure out why or they blaim their encoding. Commercial dvd's are double layer or aprox 8gigs, and the bitrate will distribute acording to the commercial houses encoders craftmenship. But with VHS you have a different ball game. You have noise that is recorded onto the tape (from the process that transfers the *clean* video onto the tape) so it may be nice and prestine going in, but very noisy when you get it home and finally play it on your tv set. Actually, its not so noisy on the set, but when you get it to your capture card and then to your HDD, you begin to realize the noise level. But this varies on many planes:

A -- vcr
B -- capture card
C -- computer system.. mother board and chip sets, etc.
D -- wiring.. from output to input
E -- household AC electicity.. it is noisy (from internal and external sources) and/or ground loop induced noise
F -- tape condition; age; speed; (SP/LP/EP) length; (60 vs. 120 vs 280 or 8hrs) brand/grade; vcr tracking; more..

When transfering one content source type to another, it is proper to do so in lossless steps. That means using the maximum bitrate available to the encoder and allowed by the destination format. For example, if the destination format is MPEG-2 (dvd) then we know that 9.8mb is the max and the proper aim is that (for this noisy *vhs* format) within very little comprimises, and (this is not bias of me) in CBR mode, too. VBR is good for clean or prestine sources and if properly utilize (with clean sources) can produce excellent results. But for VHS sources you want to use CBR (and high bitrate) in order to get the maximum amount of picture detail transferable to the *new* destination format.. in this case, MPEG-2. You want a copy-version and not a compression-version. Audio is the next thing to consider, but this discussion is mainly about picture quality. And audio is more forgiving than picture detail in terms of perceived quality.

It is criticale a move to attempt a first trail run on a video by video bases -- not shuve one tape in and assume that ALL your tapes should be mastered the same way. The wrong. Every tape should be first considered for their immediate issues if any. If any issues are found, then determine what they are, and work out a plan of functions to insert between the vcr and the monitor (or capture card) equipment.

And finally, after all that, your next bout is with your captured video. You review the video for any discernable problems and then determine what each of them are. Then, you review each of those problems and determine what functions to apply to those problem areas. This part is usually done in the video editing stages where you apply varios software filter applications to your video, such as noise reduction; color adjustments; sizing and cropping; and all sorts of other functions. All this and more is considered, restoration.

There's a lot more to this (above) but I just menionted briefly some of the basic concepts that go into all this video archiving / transfer / restoration processing.

But, getting back to my point on the destination to another format..

When attempting to arhive or transfer a video, and at some point it is determined that some work (or restoration) needs to be applied, it is best to capture the video in a lossless mannor. Not mpeg, and not DV.
Both suffer from DCT errors, compression artifacts, and sampling (interlace vs. progressive decoding) errors. I know many of you have performed this function to these two common formats, but this is the wrong move for this type of project with VHS. And if you are ultimately going to view this on an HD screen, you are in for a surprise, given the above discusison

If you are just trying to archive/transfer video over to DVD for a quick-y hardcopy, then the dvd recorder route is your answer. This would imply that quality is not your primary concirn, dispite what you may say here or there. Most dvd recorders offer the encoding option of VBR and CBR. My iLO 04 recorder offers CBR and 9.8mb setting. That is what I have used in some of my initial trial runs with that dvd recorder back in the day when I first begain toying with this new generation equipment, 2004/2005-ish. But it is clear (at least to me) that no one (except me) ever uses the CBR option of their recorders, even though this is your higest detail and quality route to select Again, most people are trying to squeeze 2hrs onto a 4.3g disc., under the perception that its the same as a commercial dvd (because the format -DVD- implies that) and this is wrong.

Old video content as recorded back in the days, say 1980's, will produce the most headackes. This is mostly on account of the the tracking mechanism of those days, and the number of heads used, and so on. And if you used LP (or worse, EP) you're in for a fight. SP, even on those machines of that ERA will prove your level of craftmenship of your skill for sure.

And, there's a big difference between a commercial pressed tape vs. a home recorded tape. And then you have to consider the origin of the source video being recorded to the tape.. ie, analog cable vs. antenna vs. whatever else is out there, years ago and right up to today. Noise then was different than to the noise of today.

There is lots more that go into this endeavor, but I feel like stopping at this point for the time being and let you all digest everything that was said and possibly reply with a pro or con response

-vhelp 4801

[victoriabears]

LP tapes recorded on a panny would look best on a panny, or a sharp with super picture and 19 micon heads or a toshiba.

JVC really does not like LP, try the simple first, choose the films you cannot get on dvd first, look at:-

www.imdb.com

then transfer the rest, you will save a lot of grief using a dvd recorder, I have grown to dislike the panny for all the reasons Lordsmurf has said, go for a Toshiba or:-

http://www.ecost.com/Detail.aspx?edp=38246882

I got one of these into Canada and am amazed at the transfer quality and the divx playback, it also plays pal dvd's on a NTSC TV, only ntsc vhs though.

[deuce8pro]

LP tapes recorded on a panny would look best on a panny, or a sharp with super picture and 19 micon heads or a toshiba.

JVC really does not like LP, try the simple first, choose the films you cannot get on dvd first, look at:-

www.imdb.com

then transfer the rest, you will save a lot of grief using a dvd recorder, I have grown to dislike the panny for all the reasons Lordsmurf has said, go for a Toshiba or:-

http://www.ecost.com/Detail.aspx?edp=38246882

I got one of these into Canada and am amazed at the transfer quality and the divx playback, it also plays pal dvd's on a NTSC TV, only ntsc vhs though.

Does that JVC record a proper black level? If not, then it wouldnt be ideal to use one of those as a VHS to DVD all in one machine. Good price on it though. I wonder how it compares to the DRM100.

[lordsmurf]

whereas denoising luma is a careful trade off where going too far is easily visible, VHS chroma is already dramatically lower resolution, and they eye is quite insensitive to this.

This is a strong argument for noise reducing in software, where you can tweak the luma and chroma processing separately. Preserve the luminance and restore the chrominance.

I don't know what to think of your statement.
All the chroma-repairing software I've ever seen sucked. Is there something that is good available?
Or is it possible, and just not done to date?

[2Bdecided]

This is what I tried...

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=136373

...but it's painfully slow. The chroma comes out very clean (saves bits!) from mc_spuds, and the chroma edges are effectively re-drawn by the warpsharp.

I haven't tried this with VHS yet - this was S-VHS-C.

Cheers,
David.

[orsetto]

Does that JVC record a proper black level? If not, then it wouldnt be ideal to use one of those as a VHS to DVD all in one machine. Good price on it though. I wonder how it compares to the DRM100.

That JVC at eCost is one of the newer "not really a JVC" oem models. It records proper black levels but otherwise has nothing else special going for it- its no better or worse than any other bargain-priced combo recorder. (Although since victoriabears says it works well, it might be worth investigating further, especially at the price.) It does not have the LSI encoder or FR recording speeds that make a vintage JVC desirable. The only JVCs worth going out of your way to buy are the DRM100 (dvd only) or the DR-MV5 combo (which is a DRM100 joined with a decent JVC vhs deck). All the later JVC consumer models are OEM knockoffs, the same as any other Circuit City special. There are a few current "pro series" JVC combo units which are still based on the DRM100 design, but they are outrageously overpriced and are known to have a very high defective rate out of the box. If you want the particular recording qualities of a JVC, pick up a good used DRM100 or DR-MV5, either goes for under $100. The only drawback is the black level issue, which may or may not be a big deal for you and can be managed with accessories if necessary.