Dell Says Crapware Is Worth $60

[MOVIEGEEK]

Those who have bought factory built computers have wondered for years why they put so much trial software on the PC,now Michael Dell has come clean and told a reporter that it won't be going away soon:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070111-8598.html

[dnix71]

I bought an eMachine in 2000. It was full of crapware [uh, i mean eWare] then. Remember Flooze? Not much changes. The only bundled software that I would not accept is Norton AV, because it is so difficult to remove and will ruin your machine if you don't pay up when the demo license expires.

[bottle-necked]

The only bundled software that I would not accept is Norton AV, because it is so difficult to remove and will ruin your machine if you don't pay up when the demo license expires.

I couldn't agree more.

[CrayonEater]

Problem with the crapware is a lot of it is spyware (MusicMatch, RealPlayer, eWare, etc.) and a lot of people don't KNOW to uninstall it.

Agree wholeheartedly on Norton AV though - I will not buy a machine with it, and I will recommend to clients to change OEMs if it's the only security solution offered.

[fritzi93]

The only bundled software that I would not accept is Norton AV, because it is so difficult to remove and will ruin your machine if you don't pay up when the demo license expires.

I couldn't agree more.

Quite right about it being difficult to remove, hazardous even. I recently did a full restore from discs on a buddy's PC, first piece of crapware I tackled was Norton. The uninstall fooked everything so bad I had to start over.

Then I got smart and used the NortonRemovalTool:

http://www.majorgeeks.com/Norton_Removal_Tool_SymNRT_d4749.html

[guns1inger]

The Norton Removal Tool is written and provided by Symantec. FWIW, I have used Norton's for years without any issues, and have worked for half of the top consulting firms on the planet. Many of them also use Nortons on thousands of PCs without issue.

[ssj2_goha]

The Norton Removal Tool is written and provided by Symantec. FWIW, I have used Norton's for years without any issues, and have worked for half of the top consulting firms on the planet. Many of them also use Nortons on thousands of PCs without issue.

Well thats because they actually pay to have it on the comps. those of us who don't want norton once the demo dies the computer goes with it.

[lordsmurf]

In the 1990s, I was a big fan of Norton. As the 2000s went along, not so much.

Let's face it: these days Norton is a virus.

Think about it; a virus destroys a computer. Not much different than Norton in many instances.

Sad.

[Jeremiah58]

This is good:
from the link above:
"For those of you sticking with the OEM route, there's always the PC-De-crapifyer."
http://www.yorkspace.com/pc-de-crapifier/

[Bjs]

Same boat as lordsmurf here as the situation and time moved forward after 2000 .

When in comparison to nortons irregularities , even with the latest update's having being applied , and it's inability to handle specific virus and trojan strains that embeded themselve's inside the restore point's ... it was the hell out of here .

Yes , sure , there may have been a few hickup's what with the 2000 change over , and people claiming "the sky is falling" and all the scare mongering pre 2000 , and the odd error during the norton redevelopment to keep up with modern technology , but even good old avg can beat the crap out of it ... and deal with those in the restore point's much more easily ... and it report's this fact in a clear to understand format that everybody can understand straight up ... no lamo "I found it , but cant do crap about it" like norton ... found what you little yellow clown ... be more specific next time round will you .

We then come down to the memory foot print's used by such tool's as I refer to them in this manner , in respect , they only do one thing supposedly well , and are not a jack of all trade's as they would claim .

Norton's is like throwing a pallet of brick's on top of the os ... only the faster pc's have a chance of performing well without too many issue's ... considering how xp perform's on different setups , and speed's .

Avg , not so big on this area , simple , effective approach to the problem ... I miss those day's when it could fit on 2 floppies ... that was really handy at the time .

Then a review of those "how to remove" information post's at symantec which when done correctly more than 2 time's , prove ineffective at resolving user issue's ... it's why I prefer hijackthis as a backup approach to sodding them right off ... and a backup image incase none work .

Not to forget those other product's such as panda , esecurity (I think it's called that) , nod , online idiot scanner's , and more ... and then taking so called online base reference's found online comparing antivirus products against each other ... ever notice the complete lack of any review including an avg match up ... almost all those reported here in this forum have the same influence ... a lack or even dont bother to include avg ... calling the kettle black and being completely bias'd ... it's got to make you think who's in who's back pocket when reviewing such material as to it having any authenticity .

In the past two year's , I have had to service pc's with updated norton's , followed the advice , only to fail to prove effective result's to remedy the given situation .

Most business's I deal with and know run avg ... not that norton clown , due to poor performance over the past , with multiple issue's too numerous to list here ... it would take me day's too do so .

Avg has had the odd idiot update which has caused minor headache's ... but I suspect it has only affected the freeware edition in regard's to "I can find your serial" ... uninstall , restart pc , reinstall the free edition , restart ... it is rather lame .

We come to a point .

Why dose avg provide a free version , and most other's dont ... and pricing arrangement's .

Well , again , in reference between nortons and avg , it would be ambiguous of me too say why ... I can only give my point of view on the situation as being avg intention's as being more open , and honest about their product's ... where as norton just dosen't care , and want's problem's to be swept out of sight and direct user's to "how to remove x" guide's that in alot of case's just dont deliver the good's , even when done multiple time's , and as explained ... that's why you find so many forum's filled to the point of explosion at time's with people having common issue's with product's ... a common situation many have found when trying too get support from officially support site's ... the falling on deaf ear's approach by a few , not by all I would add .

The situation on the pure laziness of some , which only accept online payment's ... which I am sure most user's are aware by now as being either a convenience or not ... depend's on several factor's ... mostly credit card's , paypal or via direct debit from bank account's ... other option's may be also available , but I am talking about the most widely accepted form's only .

Due to the amount of scam's being reported around , and received by user's , it is alway's advisable to reference such matter's to your preferred banking institute before doing anything one might regret ... and the consequence's that may follow .

As with pricing ... over time , some product's have broken up into multiple form's , such as free edition , home user , server edition , and many more , giving rise to some confusion by end user's ... a situation that grow's every day with many product's ... and the way some service's are organized online , dosent help ... redirect's are a plague these day's and why some user's give up saying "where's the download button" ... I wouldn't point anyone to anything there not entitled too .

Also noting the number of "copy cat" site's that constantly infect the web to fool the unwary and inexperienced user's isn't helping the situation either .

Refering back to "pallet of brick's" , that some product's become once installed on a system ... avg has proven itself to be one of the best and most reliable , even on old pc's , and os's ... noting the last time I bought norton's cited the fact it only supported win2000 and xp on the box ... I left it on the shelf ... there was no version at that time in store related to older os's .

We then reach one major factor ... avg provide's 2 year's of update's to purchaser's , when comparing current price's between , again , norton's vs avg ... I dont know of any other's that match avg as yet ... most seem to fall inline with norton's .

Remembering that alot of antivirus product's now , again , nolonger support below window's 2000 and xp ... linux has some good choice's including avg ... although the gui is in my opinion ... ghastly ... ok , it dosent look as good as the windows version , and lack's some feature's .

Avg , for what it dose , and cost , whether it be free edition or purchased licensed exceed's in performance in either format ... no other antivirus product even come's close .

This view is from actual test's over the past 12 year's under many situation's , not just one or two ...

-----------------------

Jeremiah58

PC-De-crapifyer = junk ... if you know which was installed first , it's mostly work in reverse order to remove them ... of course one would require some point of reference in order to know what the order is , as add / remove program's only give's date , and file creation time's dont refer to when they were installed when viewing in window's explorer .

-----------------------

guns1inger

"I have used Norton's for years without any issues, and have worked for half of the top consulting firms on the planet. Many of them also use Nortons on thousands of PCs without issue."

Ok , you might be happy with mr clown face (referring to idiot tray icon) , but other's would be in disagreement with your view .

No issue's ... I strongly doubt that to be the case ... I have never seen this ... ever ... possible world record holder people ... phone the guinness book of world records ... now.

In relation to "worked for half of the top consulting firms" , well that's neither here nor there ... any evidence of such statement isnt available or provided ... and it wouldn't be "half" , as that in itself is impossibility .

When considering the reason behind , why norton's is on many pc's you have "worked" on , this may only be a "given" when considering major pc manufacturer's such as dell , gateway , optima and other's , pre-include the product ... I know personally that here in au , pre 2001 , that government school pc's did not include norton's ... this was something the school's receiving unit's had to manage and discuss .

Of course it also come's down to choice ... and I doubt very much that business's are being full informed of available choice's that may fill their particular requirement's ... I know this is so , as one example , when it come's down to harvey norman for one , and all conversation's I have had the unfortunate pleasure to be involved in ... it come's down to a factor of the sale's people not knowing "all" , and their infernal reference to what is only on the store's shelf at that time ... with a hint of "I use it , without any problem's" ... as you have done .

One must have choice ... not a gun pointed at one's head .

But a nice touch with the use of the word "many" ... which implicates , not all do ... make's you think why ... how these other's are doing , and / or if they have changed product's over time , and why ... dosent it.

I was going to mention "planet" with a particular remark ... even though it was funny ... I'd though I'd be polite and refrain from such a remark ... other's might not have though it to be so .

I personally work for "it" on my own time ... being "it" just walked through my door ... whether "it" was invited or not ... "it" has developed an attitude that need's a good thrashing .. and "it" want's free coffee made by me right now .

Yes ... another screwed up nortons infected system ... it's out of here .

[lacywest]

I just re-install WinXP ... the laptops I bought from Dell and HP ... included the CDs.

[mecg]

My son and I used to play with computers a lot when he was in his teens (10 or so years ago). I even had a small business for a while selling new ones. We came up with the name “Norton Virus” even back then because of all the issues it caused. As to the crapware being installed – I fully understand the manufacturers incentive and have no problem with it. I do, however, have a problem with them not supplying an easy way to remove EVERYTHING that is not essential to the operation of the computer. In particular, when they started with supplying everything on a restore disk so that we no longer have individual disks of the software. Case in point: Microsoft Works wants the original disk just to BEGIN the uninstall. Yes, we here at VidoeHelp can jump through all the hoops – but what about the poor grandparents that bought it so they could use email and get pictures of their grandchildren? ( I’m familiar with this scenario – my father and in-laws would be lost without help from me or one of my other computer weenie relatives). Now that I’ve done my dissertation, I have to ask myself, would I pay $60 for a piece of software that would REMOVE everything. Of course, it would have to have an “undo” and frequent web updates to keep up. Taking into consideration the amount of HOURS of my life I have spent getting rid of all the crap – I’d have to say a resounding “yes” – I would gladly pay $100 for such a piece of software (especially since I have 4 computers). My two cents.

[msspurlock]

Let's face it: these days Norton is a virus.

AMEN and well said!

[ssj2_goha]

Let's face it: these days Norton is a virus.

AMEN and well said!

I guess norton like the theory "become what you hunt" It is a virus in every way. That is why the company made a remove tool for it it is a virus.

[Jeremiah58]

This topic sure has become a flame against Norton.
I do not share that opinion about Norton AV.
I had been using Norton AV from 1999 until the end of 2005 and I considered paying Norton annual subscription the best investment in my PCs - I simply did not have any trouble with detection or removal of viruses (too many of them those days).
I have installed NOD32 in 2006 and all I have noticed was that it was "lighter" on computer resources, faster reboot, less memory, smaller updates...But I haven't noticed any change on security level.
Calling Norton AV a virus (I'm speaking of Norton Antivirus only) is exaggeration and I think that such a statement does not belong to serious people in serious forum like this one. It is heavy on system resources, sure. It could slow some machines, OK, but a virus...
A statement like: "...Norton AV, because it is so difficult to remove and will ruin your machine if you don't pay up when the demo license expires." is false.
Ruin your machine? How? I haven't seen nor heard of it.
I have uninstalled different versions of Norton AV from quite a few machines, without any issue. There is a procedure to be followed, like with some other software and there is a removal tool if something went wrong.
I'm not an user of any Norton product these days, but when I was - Norton was a life saver for my PC.

[lordsmurf]

This topic sure has become a flame against Norton.

Get your terminology correct.
1. FLAMING = "Norton sucks ****."
2. NEGATIVE REVIEWS = "Norton tends to corrupt systems much in the same way a virus does."

Not the same.

[Jeremiah58]

This topic sure has become a flame against Norton.

That was an observation, not the point of my post.
This was the point: "I do not share that opinion about Norton AV."

Get your terminology correct.
1. FLAMING = "Norton sucks ****."
Not the same.

I thought that (being from a non-English country) the terminology was correct:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame_war
Don't know who sucks a ****, though.

2. NEGATIVE REVIEWS = "Norton tends to corrupt systems much in the same way a virus does."

If anyone wishes to think so - that's fine with me. I disagree, though.
BTW, any proof that "NAV tends to corrupt systems much in the same way a virus does."?

[lordsmurf]

Yes, many users (individuals and companies both!) have experienced Norton problems that are about on par with a virus, in that their attempted removal will destroy the OS.

I wish this were not the case, but it is.

I was basically forced to dump Norton AV, Firewall and Ghost because of how badly it would octopus itself into Windows, and totally bog down the systems. The only Norton item I have left is Norton Utilities on my desktop.

[RyanDL]

This is getting out of hand. The whole topic of Dell and $60 crapware removal originated when *I* stated the $60 figure at a CES rountable meeting with Michael Dell. Here's the real deal if you want to know why people are quoting fallicius information all over the web.

http://whatsupdell.blogspot.com/2007/01/ces-roundtable-with-michael-dell.html

There's even a link there to the video in which this conversation occured. And before you start thinking I'm defending Dell, I'm not. I'm the guy that started the "I Believe Dell Lied" website and blog. I just don't appreciate idiots misreporting facts they don't check for themselves.

And yes, I agree, we shouldn't have to pay more to keep crapware from being loaded on our systems.

And I welcome your comments.


-Ryan

[Scorpion King]

It all boils down to advertisments. They get paid for putting the crapware on their systems then you pay them for having it on there. They make money both ways. And if anyone believes their story about making their pcs cheaper then I have a bridge for sale if you're interested.

At least there is PC Decrapifier. Love that name

[igalan]

Today I had to set up three new computers for a customer in his network (Windows 2003 Server). All three DELL and I had to decrapify them, not fun : McAfee (I'm still not sure if this is worse than Norton), Corel crap trials, some URL assistant (WTF?) and now Google Desktop! Ok this one might be useful for some people, but it takes over 50 MB of RAM just to be sitting there and I'm sure the users don't need all the functions it provides.

Hopefully everything can be uninstalled, and then get AVG installed (volume license, of course ). They were using (suffering should I say) Panda before they came to where I work for IT services.

A couple of years ago we purchased a Toshiba Laptop. It came with Norton AV for three months, so the custormer just went ahead and installed it before doing anything else. After rebooting the computer was slow as hell. And that was on a modern brand new computer using bundled software! No one at Toshiba spent 5 minutes testing if the software they were bundling was compatible or what?! Hopefully I could uninstall it (which not always is possible) and install AVG Free.

[ozymango]

And yes, I agree, we shouldn't have to pay more to keep crapware from being loaded on our systems.

And I welcome your comments.

Okay, being it's Friday, I'm bored, and this is a fun topic ... ...

Without jumping on the anti-Norton-antivirus bandwagon, I can certainly agree that uninstalling it can be a royal pain -- we (I work for a state college) use various Symantec antivirus programs on our machines and I can tell you that on an admin level, there are days when the AV stuff is more of a headache than the viruses it's protecting us from. No, it doesn't happen all the time but it's serious enough (the admin stuff required) that our IT department is changing to a different AV provider. And when you consider the time and effort involved in switching over an entire school to a competing piece of software, you know that they don't do this kind of stuff lightly. :

Anyway, that's that. But my main "comment" is actually about the idea that we don't wanna pay more for not having "crapware" on computers. I agree with that idea in theory. But it's all in the phrasing.

Phrase it another way, and it becomes: "I'm willing to accept some software on my computer if it means I can save $60." It's like when people say, "I shouldn't have to pay more for something if I buy it with my credit card, versus cash." Trouble is, it costs a merchant 2-3% on the selling price of something if he or she goes through Visa than a cash sale. Is it okay to discount that selling price, if I pay cash? Notice how most merchants don't do that, they just incorporate that 3% into the price. Who should have to pay more? Or pay less?

That's just as accurate a comparison, probably even more so. I'm no Dell lover (though I work with billions of Dell computers, and they're certainly decent enough computers), and yeah the first thing we do with any Dell computer we build is format the drive and install our own custom build, so whatever software they ship with gets hosed right out of the gate.

BUT we get cheaper machines from Dell if we agree to whatever crap they ship with their machines, which we can then dispose of as we wish (and right into the trash goes pretty much every disc that comes with a Dell machine we build). So we eat it.

Bottom line: It's about the bottom line.

[guns1inger]

FWIW, latest Australian Personal Computer has just reviewed internet security suites. AVG is slower, finds a lot less virii and uses a lot more memory than NIS2007. Kaspersky craps on all of them, and MacAfee is by far the biggest general memory and performance hog, closely followed TrendMicro. NIS2007 uses less memory in standard background mode than all of them (11.5 MB), closely followed by Kaspersky (14 MB). The next closest is double those numbers. AVG is huge by comparison.

For a free product, AVG is great. But I won't stake my system on it for protection.

For the record, I use NIS2005. I would not upgrade to 2006 because it does have serious issues, however 2007 goes a long way to address them. I would use Kaspersky if it offered some form of parental controls in the way that NIS does.

[pepegot1]

I just set up two new Dell computers for neighbors and I was able to remove Norton the usual way (Add/Remove Programs.) I had the Uninstaller, but did not need it. It looks like they got that message regarding Norton removal problems.

[pchan]

@pepegot1,
You need the NAV Removal Tool to get rid of it. Best to get rid of it. Otherwise, it will interfere with new anti virus installation. Once it goes wrong, it's painful to removal it.. that's the angst of NAV.

[Jeremiah58]

NIS2007 uses less memory in standard background mode than all of them (11.5 MB), closely followed by Kaspersky (14 MB).

Sounds too good to be true.

[lordsmurf]

Australian Personal Computer
.

And you trust a magazine review?

[ViRaL1]

I've used Norton for several years and I won't say that I've never had a problem. I did have an issue with NIS 2006 where it would continously pop up on the corner, and a reinstall seemed to fix it. Other than that I've been pretty happy with it. My experience might be atypical. Even if you don't like it, the worst you could call it is malware / spyware but not close to being a virus since it doesn't spread.

[Headbanger's Ball]

Recently I worked on a few computers at a little school. Someone in a night class got 3 computers infected with a virus. I installed AVG and removed the viruses. Everything was fine.
The school decided to go ahead and remove AVG and install NAV (because they had a license for NAV and the AVG terms kinda forbade what I did )
Then, when students needed to use those computers, they said something was wrong. Not really wrong but they noticed the computer was acting different. It was taking much longer to boot up than before. I checked it out and it was significently longer.

I had a computer before with NAV. When I reformatted and reinstalled the os, I left NAV off and noticed a huge difference in performance. (Yes, I know a new install runs faster than an old one, but even after the system got some age and all the programs reinstalled...it was still faster without NAV.)

Bottom line: NAV does what it is supposed to do. So do the other A-V makers but they do it without taxing the system resourses.

As for the other bloatware OEM programs...there should be some FREE option to not have that crap put on there..even if it's an opt-out, you-have-to-specify-cause-we-wont-ask option when ordering the computer from Dell.

[guns1inger]

And you trust a magazine review?

APC's reviews I do. APC have been around pretty much as long as the PC itself, and have a very strong reputation.