dvd352x576 using normal cdr

[surfseeker]

does anyone know whether it is possible to write a dvd at 352x576 on 2 normal cdrs ? sorry wrong forum

[dcsos]

No it is not

The DVD spec does not include MPEG-2 other than at 720 x 480


from DVD DYMYSTIFIED:


There are many advantages to creating a DVD-Video volume using inexpensive recordable CD rather than expensive recordable DVD. The resulting "cDVD" (also called a "miniDVD") is perfect for testing and for short video programs. Unfortunately, you can put DVD-Video files on CD-R or CD-RW media, or even on pressed CD-ROM media, but as yet almost no settop player can play the disc. There are a number of reasons DVD-Video players can't play DVD-Video content from CD media:
1) checking for CD media is a fallback case after DVD focus fails, at which point the players are no longer looking for DVD-Video content
2) it's simpler and cheaper for players to spin CDs at 1x speed rather than the 9x speed required for DVD-Video content
3) many players can't read CD-R discs (see 2.4.3).

The only known players that can play a cDVD are the Afreey/Sampo LD2060 and ADV2360 models, and the Aiwa XD-DW5 and XD-DW1. Some of these players use 1x or 2x readers so they can't handle data rates over 4 Mbps. It's possible to replace the IDE drive mechanism in the player with a faster drive, which can then handle higher data rates. See robshot.com for details on cDVD-capable players. (Note: there have been many reports of players able to play DVD content from CD-R. Upon investigation it turns out that they play Video CDs but not cDVDs. The players mentioned above have been verified to play DVD-Video files (.VOB and.IFO) from CD media.)

Computers are more forgiving. DVD-Video files from any source with fast enough data rates, including CD-R or CD-RW, with or without UDF formatting, will play back on most DVD-ROM PCs as long as the drive can read the media (all but early model DVD-ROM drives can read CD-Rs).

[buzz86]

skip all his mumbo jumbo and got kvcd.net to find out how toget it onto 1 cd

[dcsos]

Why are you calling info from the DVD SPEC showing why a CD with DVD files on it cannot be called a real DVD "MUMBO-JUMBO"

Meanwhile, you're telling him to make a VIDEO CD

ok I stand corrected..
He must've just wanted to know how to put some Video files on a cd

Posting DVD352x576 then was meaningless(or not explained)

[energy80s]

There is absolutely no problem in putting a DVD compliant 352x576 file on a CDR. Don't know why you thought otherwise. The only problem is that most standalone players won't play it as it is too high a bitrate for them to read from a CDR disc. It will play fine though on a PC. And you will be able to transfer it to a proper DVDR disc in the future without having to re-encode it.

[kwag]

The DVD spec does not include MPEG-2 other than at 720 x 480

DVD specifications include:

352x240(288) MPEG-1 and MPEG-2
352x480(576) MPEG-2
704x480(576) MPEG-2
720x480(576) MPEG-2

-kwag

[dcsos]

Hi,
I stand corrected, and will go check out those templates....

So these'll never play on a settop then..the best excuse for my poor lack of knowledge here is I guess I was thinking SET-TOP legal DVD spec..
Sorry ALL

Would the resultant disc be called a DVD or VIDEO CD though?

[kwag]

The above resolutions will play on every DVD player that follows the DVD compliant specifications. To give you an idea, I have a Panasonic DMR-E20 standalone DVD-R/DVD-RAM recorder, and I have made DVDs at all the above resolutions, and they play on every DVD player I have tested.

-kwag

[adam]

DVD specifications include:

352x240(288) MPEG-1 and MPEG-2

-kwag

Just a minor correction, 352x240/288 are only supported in the DVD standard when using mpeg1, not mpeg2.

Granted I don't have access to the DVD standards, but this is what DVD Demystified as well as several other DVD articles list, and Sonic Scenarist, which most commercial DVDs are made with, will only accept these resolutions when the asset is encoded in mpeg2.

[kwag]

Hi adam,

352x240(288) is defined in the DVD standard for both MPEG-1 and MPEG-2. It's the only resolution allowed for MPEG-1, but MPEG-2 is also supported at that resolution. That's one of the things that shocked me when I bought the DMR-E20 and I recorded in 6 hour mode! It uses 352x240 MPEG-2, and plays everywhere!
Here's a link to the specs: http://www.mpeg.org/MPEG/DVD/Book_B/Video.html

-kwag

[adam]

Yeah I've seen that page but its listing of supported resolutions is extremely vague. All it says is that the standard itself supports 352x240/288 generally, then says that mpeg1 is only supported in that res. It doesn't say that you can use mpeg2 at that res. Like I said, dvd demystified specifically states that mpeg2 cannot use 352x240/288 in the DVD standard, and my guess is that that author has access to the specs.

Taken from DVD Demystified:

Allowable picture resolutions are:
MPEG-2, 525/60 (NTSC): 720x480, 704x480, 352x480
MPEG-2, 625/50 (PAL): 720x576, 704x576, 352x576
MPEG-1, 525/60 (NTSC): 352x240
MPEG-1, 625/50 (PAL): 352x288

Also Scenarist rejects any such stream as non-compliant. If almost all commercial DVDs are made with Scenarist than I cannot see how this could possible be a supported stream combination.

I am really quite certain that an mpeg2 stream at this res is non-compliant. I really think that it may be your hardware that is off spec, and its really not that suprising actually. Almost all dvd hardware deviates from the standard in at least one regard. I agree, most players will still play mpeg2 at that res. I think its just another one of those limitations that only exists on paper, but nevertheless, it does exist.

[kwag]

I think the author of DVD Demystified was drinking when he wrote that page
Here are more official specs. http://www.disctronics.co.uk/downloads/tech_docs/dvd-video.pdf see page 12.
And here's a link with the DVD forum technical notes: http://www.linuxtv.org/dvd/html/nemec_dvd.html
I believe there are many DVD authoring programs in the market that are flawed and don't follow the specifications down to the letter. Scenarist, even though it's a high end program, apparently is one of them. Or maybe the encoded mpeg-2 file has a small non-compliant parameter somewhere!
I've taken some of the captures I've done with the DMR-E20, and extracted parts in my PC DVD-R/DVD-RAM, and they import just fine into DVDit. So at least I know DVDit works fine with 352x240 DVD MPEG-2 files.

-kwag

[adam]

Ok, since neither of us has the actual specs, we are just flying blind so, while there is no reason to split hairs, I disagree.

If there is one thing I have learned about the DVD standard, its that not everyone follows the rules. Most hardware manufacturs, who have the actual specs as a guideline, fail to comply in many ways.

That distronics document was created by a DVD/CD replicator plant who are just one of many. Personally, I don't really view this as much of an authority. I just found another replicator plant which listed that 720x480 mpeg1 was supported in the DVD standard. I don't think you can trust a company who very possibly has never even read teh DVD specifications. If you look through specifications posted by say Philips versus someone like Pioneer, you see clear differences. You cannot trust one company's interpretation of the specs over all others, and these are well known companys. I've never heard of distronics. For all we know, the actual DVD specs may even be vague in this regard, but I for one am not willing to pay $5000 to find out.

Also, in that document they list that 352x480 is supported in mpeg1 under the DVD specs also, and we both know that is simply not true. I think that information in that document is very questionable.

Now the notes from the DVD Forum are good, but as far as I can see they list the same specs as the other link in your previous post. Again, it is very vague. It says definitively that 352x240/288 is supported in regards to mpeg1, it then says that 352x240/288 is supported in the DVD standard. This res could be unsupported in mpeg2, and the previous statements would still be true. The document simply makes no affirmative statement one way or the other.

I have no idea how strong an authority DVD Demystifed is. I always thought it was regarded well, but I'm not saying the author isn't wrong, or that he wasn't drinking when he wrote that.

As far as Scenarist, I really think its more than just a high-end authoring program. It is, in fact, the program that virtually all commercial DVDs are authored with. It IS the industry standard software. Now granted, I'm not sure if there has ever been a commercial DVD encoded in 352x240 mpeg2, but still, I trust Scenarist's compliancy checks more than any other authoring program. I absolutely guarantee you that I could get DVDit! to accept streams that we both would agree were clearly non-standard. I personally loathe that program.

I'm positive my test streams were otherwise compliant too. Also, by just switching my settings to mpeg1 Scenarist accepted it fine.

So Kwag, don't take this the wrong way I'm not challenging you to prove me wrong or anything. I just think there is going to be a certain level of uncertainty in any document or authority we cite, because most people simply don't have access to the official specs and this is really not of much concern to commercial organizations because commercial DVDs simply aren't encoded this way. So from what authorities I have read, and what tests I have run, I'm fairly certain regarding this issue, but I fully realize that we will probably never know for sure. However, I think you would agree with me that whenever there is any level of uncertainty, its always best to err on the safe side. We know for a fact that 352x240/288 is supported in mpeg1, so unless you have a specific reason to use mpeg2, I think safe is better than sorry.

In any case, thanks for the links.

[vcd4ever]

adam,

Your post about scenarist not accepting mpeg2 352x240/288 was very interesting, because i have the oppinion that mpeg2 352x240/288 is dvd compliant. I agree with you that most commercial dvd's are made with scenarist, so scenarist should follow the dvd-spec. I have now tried scenarist myself, but i'm now more confused than before because scenarist accepted 352x288 in both mpeg1 and mpeg2. I have also authored 2 dvd's with scenarist, one using 352x288 mpeg1 and the other 352x288 mpeg2, both played perfectly on my dvd player.

vcd4ever.

[adam]

What version of Scenarist are you using? I am using 2.6.0.0218 and it definitely will not accept 352x240 or 352x288 with mpeg2.

I don't doubt that these types of disks will play ok on most dvd players. Even the strictest dvd players are still pretty leniant when it comes to resolution.

From everything I have read, DVD Demystified is supposed to be the formal authority on DVD, short of the iso specs themselves of course which are not available to people outside the industry. Mpeg.org has his faq as their primary link on DVD. The author is a member of the DVD Forum and is president of the DVD Association. The guy is GM of Sonic Solutions, who makes Scenarist. Look at the guy's resume http://www.dvddemystified.com/jim/jhtaylor.htm

His book specifically says that 352x240/288 is only supported when using mpeg1 and is not supported with mpeg2. I'm going to have to defer to his authority on this one.

[tuquet]

Hi,

I have been searching for similar solution ever since I got the hardwares (all 3 days). My problem is when I burned DVD contents (using Ulead 6 comes with the SIIG Firewire card) on a CD-R using either the CD-RW or DVD+RW I only got good video on my standalone player ($80 progressive scan Zenith @CC), audio broke up with static as if my speaker wires were about to separate. The same contents burned on a DVD+RW disc worked fine. Why do I want it on CD-R? It is much cheaper, and besides, the 15-20 minutes clips are perfect for sharing, not boring my friends/relatives to death. Am I trying the impossible or simply missing something? In addition, I suspect that Ulead 6 would compromise quality during rendering. I would not mind spending some reasonable amount to preserve the digital8 quality, any suggestion? Sorry to steer a bit off topic and thanks for all inputs.

tuquet

[vcd4ever]

adam,

My scenarist version is also 2.6.0.0218

vcd4ever.

[SatStorm]

I have to agree that mpeg 2 @ 352 X 288/240 is supported by DVD specs. If you follow the GOP rule (15PAL, 18 NTSC), you have no problem at all.
I have made lots of tests, even on those old Sony monsters (the ones that nothing works) and 352 X 288 was playable with no problem.
There is no really difference between a m1v and m2v if both are progressive (which are by nature...), use 8bit and follow the same GOP structure.
Don't forget that any mpeg 1 is a null mpeg 2. Mpeg 2 is based on MPEG 1, it just adds extra features.

Also, don't forget this 720 X 288/240 resolution. I made once a DVD-R using this one for test porpuses and it is playable everywhere I tested, like a normal 720 X 576. Useless for picture quality but for sure playable... Now what's that ?

[kwag]

@adam and all,

From the latest FAQ at http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html

Allowable picture resolutions are:
MPEG-2, 525/60 (NTSC): 720x480, 704x480, 352x480, 352x240

-kwag

[adam]

Well I wonder what he was smoking when he wrote that.

Seriously, that's good enough for me. I believe DVD Demystified is the best source for information regarding the DVD standard, short of the unattainable IEC specs themselves. So now that he has updated his FAQ and corrected that mistake, we know where we stand.

[kwag]

Yes, I think both DVD Demystified and Video Demystified are the best combination

-kwag