Getting started - Need to sort out programs

Hi tmh,

First thing: welcome to the site, the forums and to the dark art of video...

The first thing you should know is that you need to be prepared to do a lot of reading, head scratching, crying, experimenting and - after all that - celebrating!!!

The search, glossary and guides here should become your first port of call. Ask questions when you're stuck.

What you want to do is very possible, but will require tenacity - it's not as simple as making VCDs but is well worth the effort when that first DVD plays...

OK, to start with here's a high-level summary of the steps you asked for:

1. Shooting - Use a good cam. Don't do your pan shots (left to right, right to left) too fast. Avoid quick zooms in and out. Avoid camera / hand wobble as much as possible (I'll explain shortly - see *1). Wherever possible, use a tripod. Overshoot - do an additional 10 seconds at the start and end of each shot (I'll explain why in *2).

*1 This is not only to make the picture look better to the viewer, but helps to keep the file size down when converting to the right format for DVDs.

In simple terms (for now), wobbles etc. are seen by the tool that converts your footage to DVD format files as a high amount of data and so produces a larger file because of it. I'll explain why this may be a pain - see *3.

2. Transfer - Commonly referred to as "capturing" but, in fact, for a DV cam you are transferring the data from the tape to the hard-drive (not capturing) and so have no quality loss. Much like transferring files from a floppy disk to your hard-drive.

I don't know Ulead VideoStudio (UVS from here on in), but I'm sure that it'll do the transferring for you. If you want to start with a simple capturing tool, WinDV is regularly (highly) recommended and is free. There are others: DVIO, AVI_IO, Scenalyzer Live (not free, but cheap). If you get the option, choose DV type 2 (see *4).

Capture each shot into a separate file and name logically - easier to organise if you've got a number of shots (e.g. holiday footage). This will take time up front, but is easier in the long run.

3. Editing - This is where you arrange your footage to look and sound as you want it to. You can use UVS to do this. I don't know how "novice friendly" it is, only you can judge.

Look in the "Tools" section (link in the left pane) and you'll see two categories - "Basic Video Editors" and "Advanced Video Editors". Have a look through there if need be.

For very basic trimming and joining, VirtualDub (free) is good and useful for other stuff too.

*2 When editing, having your shots or clips in their own file means it's easier when using something like UVS. You place each clip in the order you weant them to appear, and trim as you need. If you had one big file of all the shots, it'd mean putting this in multiple times and trimming LOADS off to get just the lcip you want.

4. Encoding - This is turning your footage into a file format that can be used on DVDs: MPEG2. At this point, reading up on the DVD specs would be useful (see "What Is... DVD", top left of the page).

It's worth mentioning at this point that a common novice mistake is to think about how much "time" can be put on to a DVD. You should think about disc space - obviously, a DVD (or any storage medium) can hold a finite amount of data. For single layer DVDs it's about 4.35Gb of usable space when authoring a DVD (as opposed to the full 4.7Gb for data DVDs). The extra 0.35Gb is for file and disc overheads.

So, when you're encoding you want the final file to fit on the disc right? Well, that means that the file size can't be too big. Luckily, there are (free) tools at hand to help figure this out. The final filesize is a function only of the bitrate (see "Glossary, top left, for info on "bitrate") and the running time of the footage. The tool is the VideoHelp Bitrate Calculator - have a play to get an idea of what it does. You'll probably need it when encoding.

Because space is the premium, I encode my audio to AC3 - much more compressed than WAV and so leaving more space on thje disc, meaning a higher bitrate and so better video quality. The loss in quality AC3 vs WAV, to me, isn't noticeable and it's a DVD standard audio format.

Tool: ffmpeggui

*3 This is why creating unneccesarily large files is a pain. The impact is that space is taken up on your wobbles, when it could've been used for more footage (the time aspect). Or, you'll have to use a reduced bitrate (the other influencing) - and a reduced bitrate may compromise quality.

*4 DV Type 2 becuase this appears to be more commonly / readily accepted by encoding tools. The different types have nothing to do with the video, just the way the audio is stored.

There are a number of tools for encoding. See "Video Encoders" in the "Tools" section for a comprehensive list. However, to make it less daunting for you, here's the ones regularly referenced here (in no particular order):

TMPGEnc Plus (I use this one)
Canopus Procoder
Mainconcept MPEG Encoder
Cinemacraft Encoder

This will give you your DVD compliant MPEG2 files ready for the next stage.

5. Authoring - At this stage, you can add menus, have multiple tracks and create chapter points in your footage. An example to illustrate:

Say you've got thre holiday videos that you've edited lasting 40 mins each. You can fit these all on to one DVD (of course, you've encoded at the correct bitrate to achieve this).

You could have one holiday per track (so 3 tracks), and chapter points in each holiday video: at the airport, our apartment, the beach, trip to the vineyard etc. You would then have a menu to select one of the 3 tracks. Then a sub-menu for each track to go to chapter points if you wanted, or to play the whole thing.

Once you've decided on your menus etc., the final stage of authoring is to create the VOB, IFO and BUP files in the VIDEO_TS directory - this is usually just a click of a button.

You'll invariably get an AUDIO_TS directory that's empty - this is normal. It's there for audio DVDs, but some stand-alone DVD players look for BOTH directories to identify the disc as a video DVD.

Again, there are a number of tools, here's some common ones (in no particular order):

TMPGEnc DVD Author - Good starter, but still produces good looking results. (I use this one).
DVDLab - More for the advanced user.
DVDAuthorGUI - Free.
GUI for dvdauthor - Free.

I belive the last 2 may use the same back end, but just have different user interfaces / front ends.

Phew. Nearly there...

6. Burning - All it needs now is to get the VISEO_TS and AUDIO_TS folders on to a DVD disc. SOme of the authoring apps have built in burners (TDA does) that do a perfectly good job.

Or you could use a dedicated burning app like Nero, or whatever your favourite burning tool is. Whatever you use, make sure it knows you're creating a video DVD (not data).

7. Enjoy - Once you've got all of this under your belt, you'll fly through it as you only need to learn it once. You'll get all your settings saved and templates stored.

And, only then, can you sit back with a beer in your hand grinning with satisfaction as you (and others) marvel at your creations... As you think to yourself: "Yep, it was all worth it..."

Tips:

A) Now, I'd suggest getting to grips with each step in turn - DON'T try to run before you can walk. It'll only take longer and you'll only get p155ed off coz things aren't going right.

You need a solid foundation from the previous step before you can use the outputs in the next step. Patience will save you time and angst.

B) Buy a re-writeable DVD. Chances are you won't get it right first time and, if you do I want all the credit... Just kidding . If you do, chances are it won't look how you want - so using a re-writeable for test burns = no coasters.

C) Other useful tools:
i) GSpot
ii) AVICodec (found GSpot more reliable on MPEGs)
iii) PowerDVD / WinDVD or similar (Windows Media Player will probably do the job) for previewing authored VOBs before burning.

D) ONLY when you're ready for it, you'll need the detail on the steps and the settings etc. used in various apps (particularly the encoder I use, TMPGEnc), see this old thread of mine:

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=725433#725433

I'm not claiming it's the best, or the most efficient but it gives me really good results and seems the logical way of doing things.

There, that's all my knowledge, pain and lessons learnt dumped onto "paper" for you...

I hope it's of benefit, and that you have many waking hours of frustration and puzzling - coz I did!!! Seriously, stick with it and you'll enjoy it in the end.

Have fun, and good luck. Feel free to ask loads of questions...

Originally Posted by tmh

Oh, lastly, if available, I'd rather buy an all-in-one program if in the $100 range than have to fiddle around with 3 or 4 things that don't work well together.

I had such high hopes for you until I saw that... The way you asked such detailed questions, seemed keen to do it thoroughly... Then that, right at the end...

Yes, there are tools that will do an all-in-one. Look in the "Tools" section, "All-In-One DVD Converters" category. Common opinion is that, while they're easier, coz you have less control at each step the final quality isn't as good as it could be if you use separate tools dedicated to each task.

The tools I've listed work well together, they just need some commitment to get them "under your belt", but it's worth it in the end IMO.

I've not used any of 'em. You don't have to guess where my preferences lie...

There still may be hope Daamon

If you hold an "intercession" or "interdiction" or whatever it's called ...have all his friends and family gather around, be supportive, and attempt to talk him out of buying a "Fisher-Price Pre-Schooler All-In-One Video Whiz-Bang"

LOL. Thanks Cap - You've gone some ways to dragging me from my despair.

I was well chuffed with that "brain dump" only to see "that" at the end when I was making sure I covered all the questions... What is it with people? "I wanna pay cheapo bucks, have my arse wiped and get a hollywood movie at the end"...

Still, I've done my bit... No offence tmh, I'm just ranting...

Originally Posted by tmh

Thanks for the great info. I can't start until next week because my brother stole my camcorder, but I'll dig in then. Again, thanks for the time spent in answering.

Now, as for the condescending "post replys", I really don't get that. I made it perfectly clear I didn't want to re-make "Gone With The Wind" or the like. I also had no idea whether an "all-in-one" was any compromise at all. If it is, please let me know. If it's just not "techy enough" for you, then that's not an issue I have because I just want to make some DVDs.

Thanks again!

No "all-in-one" tool will give you the kind of quality that you want or will expect.

Capture of DV or Digital8 is very easy. Not much to that step.

It's all the other steps that become mind numbing.

You will want a good DV editing software package unless you don't plan on doing any excessive editing but most camcorder footage usually calls for a level of editing that I would call excessive. Most of the good choices here are very expensive but I have limited knowledge of these programs so hopefully someone else can help. If it were me I would probably use VEGAS 5 but that program is $560 USD but then again it probably does everything you would need otherthan perhaps your DVD Authoring stage.

VEGAS 5 includes a video MPEG encoder but if you go with an editor that doesn't include a video MPEG encoder then you should consider either TMPGEnc Plus ($37.00) or Cinema Craft Encoder BASIC ($58.00) or maybe even Procoder Express ($59.95). All of these are excellent choices for converting your DV footage to MPEG-2 DVD spec though I lean towards CCE BASIC myself. Beware though that CCE BASIC requires knowledge of AviSynth which for a newbie can be tricky so you might be better off with TMPGEnc Plus or Procoder Express in that regard.

For DVD Authoring again there are many choices but a fairly easy-to-use program with great features is TMPGEnc DVD Author which can be had for $68.00 without AC-3 encoder or $89.00 with AC-3 encoder. You would want the AC-3 encoder unless you get something like VEGAS 5 which I think includes one.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

Originally Posted by tmh

Now, as for the condescending "post replys", I really don't get that. I made it perfectly clear I didn't want to re-make "Gone With The Wind" or the like. I also had no idea whether an "all-in-one" was any compromise at all. If it is, please let me know. If it's just not "techy enough" for you, then that's not an issue I have because I just want to make some DVDs.

Sorry tmh - It wasn't aimed at you. If you hang around long enough you'll see that there are those who want the world, want someone else to get it for them, want it cheap, don't listen to people who've been around the block a few times then say that their finished product is crap and expect someone to fix the unfixable for them...

This site and the forums encourage people to take an interest and learn, and you strike me as one of those. Not knowing isn't frowned upon or criticised here - as long as people try to help themselves too, and people like yourself are encouraged to develop their skills.

You'll also get used to some of the many characters here who've got a "challenging" sense of humour - my "rant" was aimed at the lazy arses (you not included) who don't want to learn, but just want it done for them... On reflection, perhaps it was misplaced. Capmaster, being a fixture of the site, is just tuned in to what I was getting at.

Welcome to the fold and I hope you hang around, not only to get your first DVD but to be an active member of the forum. I apologise for you feeling that the "post replies" were condescending, they weren't meant to be.

WOW, daamon just about wiped your arse for you and and held the tissue while telling you to sneeze

That really should appear SOMEWHERE as a generic "motis operandi" for the entire process from go to woe for the DV --> DVD process.

After the marathon, I have 1 correction to make:

Originally Posted by daamon

For single layer DVDs it's about 4.35Gb of usable space when authoring a DVD (as opposed to the full 4.7Gb for data DVDs). The extra 0.35Gb is for file and disc overheads.

Not exactly true. The 4.7GB is a marketing gimmick and is based on the fact that the general public understand the base 10 numbering system, and most wouldn't have a clue about the base 2 numbering system, which is of course computer-speak (1 KB = 1024 Bytes, etc etc).


A DVDs hold 4,700,000,000 bytes

4,700,000,000 / 1024 = 4589843.75 KB (KiloBytes)

4589843.75 / 1024= 4482.269 MB (MegaBytes)

4482.269 / 1024 = 4.377 GB (GigaBytes)

So a "4.7 GB"is actually a "4.377 GB" disc in true computer-speak.


But ....

aside from that, let me just say again ...

WOW.

@ jimmalenko - My humble thanks for the praise. I just hope I haven't scared tmh off. Either with dread of DVD creation or with my (overly, granted) bold sense of humour and banter...

Oh, and thanks for the correction on the disc size - I never knew that, but I'm not surprised at it being a marketing stunt either...

Originally Posted by thecoalman

Daamon,

Suggest you cut and paste that on a word document.

What's the max filesize for a Word doc...? See your PM on the subject...

Hi tmh,

I like your style - putting "me time" before work and getting paid to do "me stuf" at work...

Your approach is the best way to go about it - set yourself a simple project and just work through it...

Answers to questions:

1. "Capturing" (actually transferring") should be lossless as it's a straight transfer of data. That said, some people do suffer from dropped frames.

Go to the "Capturing" forum and there's a very comprehensive "sticky" on why frames can be dropped.

Usually though, most people have no problems - just hook your DV cam up via firewire to yuor PC and capture using reputable software. Avoid USB2.0 - although it's fast, it's been known to be the cause of problems. And USB1 is too slow for DV video.

You may need to install a DV codec - There are a couple of good free ones in the "Tools" section, "Codecs" category:

Panasonic DV Codec
Canopus DV Codec

VirtualDub users (for some reason) prefer the Panasonic one. Both equally good from what I hear...

2. You can lose quality during editing - if you're doing fades and effects the app needs to render the video (more reading for you). Some say that this can cause quality loss but, if it deos, I'd guess it's neglibile / unnoticeable...

If you export you project to a file, the app may use a different codec to that which was used to create the source files (I'm thinking DV AVIs here). Each time a different codec is used, there is always some degree of quality loss, but one DV codec to another DV codec will be negligible / unnoticeable.

Frameserving will eliminate this (I believe).

As for features, it's whatever suits you - personal choice and budget.

3. A lot of quality loss problems usually revolve around the encoder - this is the first time (usually) there's any real format change. Poor settings, cheap / crappy tool etc.

This is why I stay away from all-in-one apps - you've not as much control over the settings and so can't fully optimise the tool to do the best job and so get compromised results. Of course, it's not always bad, I just like to be in control of what I'm doing. Besides, it's more interesting...

4. thecoalman's covered re-encoding during authoring. Burning shouldn't affect quality. But crappy media can. Common problems of crappy media are:

Freezing (particularly towards the end of the footage as it's at the edge of the disc, assuming the full disc is being used up).

Pixelation / macroblocking (more reading for you).

Pops and clicks in the audio.

No problem. Seeing as I've started you down this road, feel free to post questions in a thread and PM so I can see if I can help. That said, there's loads of others here who are more qualified than I...

Off to bed now, its just gone midnight.

Originally Posted by tmh

Thanks for the help, all. I've read quite a bit in these forums, but I see now that I just need to start trying some projects and follow the steps as listed then see what I like and don't like. daamon, don't worry that I'm too lazy to learn this and work through it, I'll just do it during work time so it doesn't cut into "me time".

Not to worry everyone. He's "one of us"

Originally Posted by Daamon

LOL. Thanks Cap - You've gone some ways to dragging me from my despair

That was some tome you posted there Daamon I'm impressed.

Now, I hope he takes advantage of all the hard-acquired video knowledge that took years to refine.

Oh yeah ........and what you wrote too

J/K. Great job there Daamon. 8)

Originally Posted by Capmaster

Not to worry everyone. He's "one of us"

Yes, it seems we have saved tmh from himself and have enlightened him in the ways of "the dark side". We nearly lost one there...

@ Capmaster - Check your PM...

I see comments that "no all in one will do it". Yet I have used Adobe Premiere quite a few times to do a project from start to finish (capture to burn), and the results are every bit as good as doing portions with individual programs. It might not be as fast, but to the naked eye it is as good.

I also use a All In One program - Pinnacle Studio 9 - costs about $100 but is often on sale. This program has gotten lots of bad press, but I guess I am one of the fortunate ones. I have been using Studio products since the first days of Studio DV, with very few overall problems. With Studio 9 I can capture, edit, add transitions, fades, menus, burn - everything I need to make high quality DVDs or other output forms.
My installation of Studio 9 is on a separate HD with its own copy of Win XP Home- basically the only programs installed. This has provided a very stable platform, but I never had many problems when Studio was bunched with other programs on one HD. Did use EndItAll sometimes.
The only feature Studio 9 doesn't have that I wanted was the ability to play a whole movie or individual chapters only. I have sucessfully used IFOedit to do that.
Someday I may also try Sony Movie Studio + DVD which is based on Vegas, but so far Studio 9 has worked.

BTW, the quality of the video in the preview window is not what you will get on the final output. The preview window is good to get a basic feel of the video, including transitions, fades, added audio, etc. - the final DVD burn will be as good as the captured video.

Just my two cents worth. YMMV

Originally Posted by thecoalman

Originally Posted by harley2ride

I see comments that "no all in one will do it". Yet I have used Adobe Premiere quite a few times to do a project from start to finish (capture to burn),

That's not a what anyone is referring too when they say all-in-one. It's not really a all-in-one either. And considering he wants to stay under $100 bucks it's not really an option is it?

To add to that, the reason it's not a reall all-in-one is coz version 6.5 (I believe) onwards has the main concept encoder bundled with it which is a good (and separate) encoder. And, like thecoalman says - a far reach from US$100...

...when I look at the captured video file on my PC it looks a bit washed out as compared to the original. It looked like this when it was capturing also. I this "normal" or is there a problem?

If thecoalman's suggestion of previewing a small clip on the TV still leaves you feeling the picture is washed out, post a screen shot.

@ thecoalman - Could it possibly be anything to do with the difference between the luminescence range displayed by TVs and monitors? I know that a difference exists (TVs are 16 - 239 I think, monitors 0 -255), but don't know enough to comment...

I don't want to experiment with the other steps with "bad" dv files so please help me out on this!

Very wise... You are learning fast, young jedi... If you're not familiar with it, look up "GIGO"...

Yeah, that thought struck me too - "Check the brightness / contrast settings"...

Still, trying a clip on the TV is the best test.

Cheers anyway...

Originally Posted by Garibaldi

First off, video-editing gets alot easier the more you do it, so don't panic.

Good point, totally agree. It's like riding a bike...

As for the alternative process - That, of course, is another way of doing it... There's more than one way to skin a cat. Here's my opinion on it. It's not a criticism - if it works for you then great, just my observations...

Pro's"

1. It's as cheap as you're gonna get - i.e. free.
2. It's a bit quicker.
3. Errr....

Con's:

1. Capturing to MPEG "on the fly" (as this would be) is generally accepted to produce lower quality MPEGs than encoding with a (good) dedicated encoder. Potentioal / probable quality loss.

2. MPEG is designed to be an "end product" format and so isn't best suited to any real editing - more than the trimming mentioned.

I don't believe that transitions, even simple ones, are possible. And I dont think that additional audio track(s) can be added.

3. Exporting to Xvid (or Divx) AVI for slideshows - you might get away with. But for footage from a DV cam - why degrade it so much when the end result is DVDs? The quality will suffer.

4. I've never used any of the free MPEG encoders listed, but I'd have to ask the question "Why are the four mentioned originally generally the favourites?". A combination of better speed and / or quality over any others would be the answer...


Authoring and burning - good info...

No problem - I'm glad it came across as it was meant - constructive. I hate those who say "This is the best way coz this is the way I do it".

For VHS to DVD, I can see why this might be a better option.

Good idea about using it as a "try out" approach...