Which VCR is the best for Restoration?

[StuR]

RE vhelp I see what you mean about the copying origonals as they do differ in quality as i found with the Shawshank VHS which I've abandoned (after doing the JVC tests). The LorRings copy is pretty good I'll get the date and details to post some time.
My comment and tests are really to cover both home and origonal VHS which surely isn't impossible to deal with using the same equiptment if it can be adapted to the different needs, ie softer/moreNR for home recordings. I'm sure most people want to buy as least equitment as possible, not just cos of cost but space too!
I would be very interesting to see you're LotRings caps, and I bet others will too.

RE Lordsmurf as with vhelp above I'm sort of looking at the two forms and its well explained in the AMIA info for anyone who's missed it -
https://forum.videohelp.com/topic246126.html

can't post new clips yet sorry will do asap

[StuR]

Sorted. These are the caps using the JVC S5955 which would probable match vhelp's svhs JVC. I wanted to retest in this good quality L.otRings tape.

- not impressed with quality still looks a bit muddy and not as detailed as HS860,
- chroma noise on the shirt,
- BEST on gives more grain in this cap so 'best off' and manually tracked,
- edit/auto don't look very different, I avoided sharp and soft



(the LotRings tape is not TMX, or digitally remastered it's a 2002 version not one of the first copies I imagine as there's no MV protection)

[StuR]

Next.. these caps are using the JVC HM-HDS1, this is a digipure SVHS/40g HD model 2001-3?. It is same period as S8850 but better quality. All caps using Sony GX300 and Svid cables
JVC HM-HDS1 info
http://www.jvc.com/product.jsp?modelId=MODL026710
http://www.homecinemachoice.com/reviews/hccreviews/VCRPVRCombis/JVC/JVCHDS1.php

- tbc off gives chroma noise which is worse than the s5955 but picture is very similar,
- BEST on improves slightly by lightening the picture,
- tbc on soften noticably but gives very good PQ.
- I think HS860 set with NR and soft still retains more detail than the JVC with tbc/nr and edit.

[StuR]

and finally, for now
.. this is going back to the Shawshank tape from earlier to test JVC tbc/nr and the Pana HS860 with nr soft setting


(I found this image easier to look at by increasing the brightness in PhotoShop by 20%)
- halo is still evident using JVC but blured more, particularly using tbc/nr
- HS860 has worst halo even with soft setting, but has greater detail

I've definatly come to the conclusion that this particular tape was over-enhanced when produced as this light fringing can only be fully removed by heavy softening using my Samsung VCR. This is likely as the tape was a cheap 'video club' edition 1997 of the film so to boost quality in copies they sharpened their master-copy. Its not evident in other tapes I've looked at using the HS860 yet, but I wanted the comparison. I keep a look out.

If I hadn't bought the HS860 I would have been more impressed with the JVC. I really wanted it to be better, but I still prefer the Panasonic which produces a good picture using the soft setting. The auto setting would require further NR but gives much more scope than the JVC which wipes out fine detail with the digipure filters (and soft image even in edit mode).
I was suprised to see how well the panasonic NR and tbc works with chroma noise and picture disturbances, and in addition the auto-tracking on the panasonic seems to perform slightly better than the BEST tracking on JVC, but I'm yet to be certain of this, as different tapes will have different problems.

But I'm sure the HDS1 will come in hand for some tapes though as it certainly has a clear improvement on the basic VCR's I have. Greater softening will be useful on older tapes.

The HD One thing I have noticed is the way the VHS>HD recordings deal with NR. The detail noise and shimmering grain evident in sony GX300 recordings are all but gone giving much more relaxing viewing. I can't really show these examples though as no DVDRW. The Ana>dig converter seems to be JVC or 'Pantera-2 Mediamatics' so pre-LSI tie in.
I'd like to think the JVC DVDRW will perform as well.
Stumbled across this link, seems like it is a very early LSI tie up (the first I think) and its Fujitsu? Hope they improved a bit on the encoder as its not perfect.
http://www.fujitsu.com/global/casestudies/WWW2_casestudy_JVC.html

[vhelp]

@ StuR

It might help to know the Tape Counter position(s) for all these scenes. At
least I could rewind my tape and go directly to the positins this way.

-vhelp 4356

[StuR]

Sure I'll have a look and post asap (not today) for Shawshank and the 4x LOTRings, don't bother till then.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
- LOTR (Home Line Entertainment)2002
title- 0:08:15 CU- 0:08:36 landscape- 0:27:29 CU.Gandalf- 0:27:34
- Shawshank (Cinema Club)1997
CU- 0:09:32

[Undead Sega]

hi, its me! the author of this thread! hooray!

im came by here because i havent been here alwhile cause i was abit busy with stuff and doing some HD upsclaing to experiments one day, which will involve using a pure VCR which will give every fullmost detail off a VHS tape.

thus also if anyone is interested:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=130142687528&ssPageName=STRK...MEWA:IT&ih=003

its from Germany and i assume everything is in good order, except the seller mentions that the Video Head is defective.

i dont know if anyone can fix that, but im sure it can be done.

for anyone is wanting one, this is a good one, cause i was hoping whoever wins this here, can help me do somehting with it, which is, if possible, we could change the TBC inside it to become a Fullframe TBC. if that is possible and could happen, it would make a great VCR for those who want to restore VHS without any either vertical or horizontal flickering.

Who thinks making a HS860 Fullframe TBC would be heavenly may i ask?

the advantage is, that its broken in a way (that could be fixed i think) and htat its dirt cheap, it wouldnt matter much if things went wrong, cause at least we will find out at the end.

[StuR]

hi, its me! the author of this thread! hooray!

Wow I thought this was a blog!
Achtung, I know that bit. It may not be cheap or easy to repair so beware, I did see a head replacement for sale when googling and for the part only was more than I payed for the VCR £80 plus?? alot anyway.

https://forum.videohelp.com/topic334295.html
This post is interesting as if you look the person has a HS1000 and a HS930 (almost same as HS960). He claims the HS930 is better than the HS1000 on old tapes. The HS1000 almost certainly has a full frame TBC like the FS200(1980). There's not many of the late Panasonics about and I'm thinking its likely that it is a full frame TBC as it's looking to be much better than the one in the JVC digipure VCR/HDD I have.
The one on ebay UK HS960 that I saw unsold may still be available if your interested I'll give the sellers name.
For PC caps Auto mode,TBC,NR would be great,
for older tapes and DVDRW caps Soft mode.

[Quasipal]

The owner of the HS930 here .

I was doing some more VHS to DVD dubbing last night. I use a direct link between my S-VHS / VHS VCR's and my Panasonic DVD recorder.

I hope to give some evaluations in the future about what I find, however last night I was doing a transcription of a 1989 commercial tape which was in good condition, but starting to show the first signs of degradation (dropouts and Hi-Fi soundtrack distortion).

I tried 3 VCR decks. My newly aquired JVC SR388 studio deck , my Panasonic NV-HS930 and an older Panasonic (1989) NVJ35 which is in 'unused' condition. It is a mono deck with noise reduction (different to the buffer memory type).

My findings are as follows.

The JVC SR388 offered stable playback with good colour. Activating the TBC gave a tightening of vertical lines, however at the expence of a little more introduced picture 'noise'. Using the 'edit', 'enhance' and 'off' picture modes gave subtle variations in edge sharpness. Edge tizz was lowest at the 'off' setting. One common item amongst JVC Hi-Fi decks I have tried is roll-off to the lower bass register - indeed, comparing directly using headphones to the Panasonic models I have shows that the JVC's do not give the same 'breadth' of sound - however this could be tweaked using a sound card, but it is good to think that I am loosing as little of the original tapes output as possible.

Trying my Panasonic 930 with the TBC and 3D-NR gives a solid, shake-free picture, however due to the processing, some fine edge details can be lost when checked closely. Remember, on old tapes, fine detail is almost 'merging' with the tape's grain and by removing that grain, fine details (like out of focus hedges and the texture of tar macadam on panning shots) can causes detail to drop in and out. For average tapes, I find that using just the TBC with the picture set to 'auto' gives a happy medium. TBC does introduce a tiny bit of noise on worn tapes, however it defeats the Macrovision on rental tapes. Colour is natural, but not as stong on the reds as the JVC's. the 3DNR works wonders on chroma noise as I have said - deep blues lock-up solidly and if used on it's own without the TBC the results can be even more spectacular. It rids tapes of a multitude of sins and I have got near-DVD purity from some tapes.

My NVJ35 is high quality mono deck. Now I know that mono is out of favour, however I find that alot of home made tapes and pre-cert ex rental jobbies are only mono anyway. Degraded Hi-Fi tapes are better in mono too (avoids breaks in audio ant the trtrtrtrtr on passages with a high treble content). Here, my NVJ35 rewards me with the best reproducion of the mono soundtrack of any machine I have. I get the feeling that the mono heads on Hi-Fi decks are more of an afterthought. It tracks well too - old tapes recover quicly after momentary head-clog AND the deck maintains a synched output complete with audio.

I could ramble on for ages - there is so much to say about VCR's, however I put a few points below that reflect my findings over the past few years.

1. When playing back an old tape, an older deck will often play it better as the tape used to be thicker and older decks were optimised for this.
2. Noise reduction can hide fine detail on degraded tapes - try a recording without any filtering and see how you like it.
3. TBC is an excellent tool, however do not use it when not needed as it is another filtering stage added.
4. Try mono - Hi-Fi crackle is very noticable when using headphones. Mono keeps going when stereo fails. Try an older deck to see if you get better treble response from this mono soundtrack.
5. Use the highest record quality you can - 10mb p/s will stay fairly true to the original. Remember, grain and fine detail are often interlinked almost like Siamese twins - the eyes are the first to suffer from detail blurring. As they are the part of the face we are drawn to first, any degradation to detail in this area reduces viewing pleasure for the persons watching.

There is alot of variance in playback decks - you need more than one to give you the best dubs, that is for sure.

Regards, Quasipal

[djnice]

I'm planning to replace my JVC HR-S7600 deck.
Which Panasonic model is better (picture quality, TBC, etc)?
The NV-HS1000 or the NV-HS860?

[demonwarrior]

Good day Lordsmurf i need your help,which vcr or vhs/dvd recorder do u recommend?i've been looking at the panasonic dmr es10,es35vs,es55,which is a good machine that got full tbc built in together with dnr?or even jvc

[lordsmurf]

There really is no DVD recorder with a true TBC built in. They do have some synchronization being done, but not a true TBC. Panasonic is basically the worst machine you can buy, when it comes to video quality.

The best DVD recorders are from JVC and Toshiba.

There is a JVC S-VHS/DVD combo in the pro series, but it runs about $1300 USD. That has pretty much everything you'd want, all rolled into a single unit.

[demonwarrior]

i had a look at the JVC SR-DVM700US,but what is the JVC model that u mentioned?u see basically i want to restore VHS tapes and put them to DVD,can i use the JVC in conjunction with the Datavideo TBC-1000?

[StuR]

Quasipal.
I would have posted sooner but you brought up so many points I didn't know were to start!
It takes some time but I do get back eventually.
As to that poor tape you mention testing with did you try the Pan HS1000, you don't say so, does that mean you just goto the pan HS930 now?

The JVC SR388 I was going to post to find any owners as I couldn't see much info on a search, but there you go, your a collector! It was a JVC digipure or the sr388 I was looking to try I got a digipure though. I'll bet it's one of those boxed new ones I noticed on ebay recently. I was atracted to the fact it's got the tbc but not digipure technology. There are loads of digipure JVC's but I think there all pretty much the same as far as the tbc/nr filter. The SR388 seems to be a different animal without going into the big pro units. What put me off was the lack of any NR and soft picture control options, you have the 'Off/Dub/Enhance' options so thats normal/edit/sharpen but no soft setting which could serve as a NR.
Have you found that the SR388, like digipure models, tend toward a softer picture anyway and hence the pic. controls only do sharpen? The SR388 is likely to be used with other studio equipt anyway were as digipure are aimed at home use so have the all in functions.
So would you say that the tbc is better than the JVC digipure? if you've got one to compare that is.

"however it defeats the Macrovision on rental tapes"

RE the HS930 - Are you sure I've not seen that, I've only got one or two but I'm sure I've tested that. I don't find the tbc effects the PQ at all as far as digital effects ect., other than movement corrections. I've not noticed noise from it anyway.
You say not to use NR but without it I find the dvd will convert that fine noise and grain into larger shimmery pixels that are quite visable and to my eye annoying and distracting. This is using a DVDRW as opposed to PC which can perform NR via software.

Sound! don't start, not another thing! I've been focusing on picture but if I was using PC for capture I'd probably look at the sound editing programs as I've noticed how they claim to reduce this high freq. hiss. Old video's are often flat sounding and dull but I'm not planning on altering that other than maybe increasing the rec. volume (if using my ext. tbc/mixer), this could just increase the hiss though.
Good idea to use good headphones though as they surpass the quality of most tv speakers.

For me having a mono deck isn't much of an option due to space, and I'd loose the picture quality, maybe? Anyone with this option can certainly find these old units up and down for dirt cheap, carboots again are ripe pickings.

[StuR]

djnice, don't know about HS1000 (don't have one) but seems the HS860 could be better? (previous posts) But go for the HS930, HS960, HS860 in that order, depending on price.
HS860 ........................TBC, 3dNR, soft/auto/sharp
HS960 as above adds... jog dial
HS930 as above adds... L/R audio level option

The jogdial is handy to use and the audio level may be useful, but the picture is the same for these 3. I don't think there are any more models though, if the 2 other features are of no importance and its just picture then get the cheapest deal.

BTW your the one with the JVC HM300. I asked about the recorder features, I've got one now and it's looking good so far. No you can't update menu backgrounds, but the dual-pass does have a possitive effect- still testing.
How long have you had your's did you know the burner's often pack in. Try and get it to fail before the warranty ends, new burners (or just fireware update on late models) sort problem.

I'll post caps using JVC MH300 as apposed to Sony some time as it has a good perminant NR, and I'm finding the half frame rec and interesting extra level of NR at FR155.

[StuR]

demonwarrior

i had a look at the JVC SR-DVM700US,but what is the JVC model that u mentioned?u see basically i want to restore VHS tapes and put them to DVD,can i use the JVC in conjunction with the Datavideo TBC-1000?

Never used a pana DVDRW but I was was tempted due to the huge market share in the UK. I'd listen to the above advice and go for Toshiba or JVC, though I believe Pioneer are worth a look. I think some of the pana SVHS VCR's are worth considering though for playback.
I don't know what region SAfrica is are you PAL/NTSC? That'll depend on the options for recorders.
I've just got the JVC MH300 which is looking promising, it's PAL though.
the SR-DVM700US is the real Pro model Lordsmurf probably means the HDD/DV/DVD model DR-DX5S. There pretty much the same but the DR model has a flip down front cover to hide the buttons, ect.
Any DVDRW should work with the TBC-1000 it's just the extra leads.
JVCvPana and DVM700 https://forum.videohelp.com/topic329510.html
DVDRW/HDD models https://forum.videohelp.com/topic325536.html

[StuR]

whoops posted 1st post twice? deleted.

[demonwarrior]

ok i want the use the following chain: JVC SR-DVM700US-Datavideo TBC-1000-PC,whats ur opinion?

[StuR]

Regards the Panasonic HS860 - actually got a reply this time from pan about the tbc. They say its a full frame and no info on the memory size. I took pics of tbc and 3dnr circuit board and think I saw about 6 to 8 hynix chips on it, I know they do memory but it could be other stuff.
This means the HS930 and 960 are full frame too. The more I use it the less that suprizes me. I'm really glad I got it, please don't break! recommended.

JVC SR-DVM700US-Datavideo TBC-1000-PC

I'm confused dw do you realise that the sr-dvm700 is a 'dv-tape/HDdrive/dvdrec combi' it isn't a svhs/vhs player?
I prosume you mean VCR? > TBC1000 > PC.
Swap the PC for a dvm700 to miss out the PC but the DVM700 is very pricey I think an alternative consumer model would be just as good for you. Having a HDD is handy to edit and a title menu to captures. Toshiba have the best editing and menu creation functions if thats important.

[StuR]

Regards the Panasonic HS860 - actually got a reply this time from pan about the tbc. They say its a full frame and no info on the memory size. I took pics of tbc and 3dnr circuit board and think I saw about 6 to 8 hynix chips on it, I know they do memory but it could be other stuff.
This means the HS930 and 960 are full frame too. The more I use it the less that suprizes me. I'm really glad I got it, please don't break! recommended.

JVC SR-DVM700US-Datavideo TBC-1000-PC

I'm confused dw do you realise that the sr-dvm700 is a 'dv-tape/HDdrive/dvdrec combi' it isn't a svhs/vhs player?
I prosume you mean VCR? > TBC1000 > PC.
Swap the PC for a dvm700 to miss out the PC but the DVM700 is very pricey I think an alternative consumer model would be just as good for you. Having a HDD is handy to edit and a title menu to captures. Toshiba have the best editing and menu creation functions if thats important.

[Undead Sega]

Regards the Panasonic HS860 - actually got a reply this time from pan about the tbc.

Hooray! finally the kind of news we have all been waiting for! great to hear that it is a Ful-Frame TBC, but what makes u think it was half-frame for alot of the others?

[StuR]

U saga not sure what you mean? I just prosumed like the JVC digipure VCR's that it was not full frame. Some pana are half frame (1970) and being a consumer model prosumed it may not be full. It doesn't have the frame sync. which would stop MV though so ext. tbc's still are needed some times. I've noticed on a home rec. tape it rolls abit when played on JVC with tbc/nr, it doesn't with the pana tbc. This is likely to be due to the full frame? but it's just one instance.

This a pic of the tbc/nr card on the HS860. The X marks the spot on the main board for the tbc card, it says tbc/secam so looks like its an optional extra card slot. The chips aren't marked hynix?? I did google and got nothing. The thick white line seperates the two functions on the card, the front of the 3dnr part is obscured but hasn't much there, most of the chips are on the tbc, I imagine both functions share the memory buffer.

Sound
RE this I plugged in some headphones to test sound on the two tapes tested earlier - home rec., and Shawshank. This time rec. on a JVC MH300 DVDR. The PanHS860 playback has easily noticable fuller sound more depth in base and high freq. The JVC digipure is flatter (like an old music tape) not so much on the home rec. but quite clear from an origonal tape. Never thought to use headphones before, an obvious advantage.

had another search none of the chips on the tbc seem to be memory?? so that's the limit of my knowledge

[Quasipal]

Sorry - been away for a while.

OK, to address a few points, I find that I am no longer using the Panasonic 1000 as much as I used to. It is WELL built, but does neither play back shoddy old tapes as well as my mono decks or newer tapes as well as my 930. It's head clogs easily (narrow gap?) and this causes drop-outs in sound and picture. A second 1000 I have behaves this way too.

I use a home DVD recorder, not a PC for capture, so the macrovision bit is probably not as important as it was a few years ago for those using a PC. If I turn the TBC corrector off I am told 'recording not possible' by my DVD recorder. Turning it on allows me to transfer to DVD.

Been spending time with the SR388 (should get out more) and tried out all the settings. Recorded the same section of tape with this and my other machines and found that what I am really gaining with the 388 is better transport and action on pressing a command button. Directly compared to the Panasonic 930 I would say the 930 is a touch better - less noise than the 388 with no filters applied. There is no loss of detail either on the 930 compared to the 388. It was an e-Bay unit (sharp eyes you have there :P ). Panasonic has better sound as previously discussed (why is this not mentioned more?)

Concerning DigiPure, I have no other JVC to compare it to, so I cannot say how they differ. I spoke to JVC and they say the machine was from 1996-2003 and was priced £1000. It was aimed at home cine buffs and was probably more suited to fresh, clean, S-VHS tapes than what we are dealing with on these forums.

I will sum up by saying that an no time, with any setting, did the 388 play back, or sound better than the 930. If you see a 930 I strongly reccomend you pick one up. They play back really sweetly. I leave mine unplugged and treat with extra care in the hope it will last longer!

Oh - TBC's. Panasonic and JVC were head to head. Both corrected a wavy picture with aplomb.

Any more questions I will hapily answer when I get back from a short holday.

Ian

[demonwarrior]

any ideas on the JVC-SR-DVM600US as the 700US is discontinued oh an i got a diagram from jvc that shows that i can use the chain i mentioned

[StuR]

http://www.amazon.com/JVC-SR-DVM700US-Professional-Recorder-MiniDV/dp/B000HI3HGE
still available from US.
600 is only 40G HDD (as opp 700's 250G HDD)
otherwise looks the same.

[demonwarrior]

but is the TBC and DNR spec as for other specs also the same on the two models?