Pioneer DVR-440 or Toshiba XS35 (85DT?)

[StuR]

Hi this is really an update on my previous post looking for a new recorder for mainly VHS to DVD conversion. These are what I'm looking for can anyone add anything to help me pick one.

1/ I'm going for a HD and digital tuner (important for UK to get all free stations) This to help with new recordings so I can set the timer and relax.
2/ The usual VCR.. better quality than my Sony GX300, which isn't good enough at 2hr, I can live with 2hrs per disk.

These 2 are from recomendations mainly this site.
Pioneer DVR-440HS .... http://www.pioneer.co.uk/uk/products/42/125/501/DVR-440HX-S/index.html
review (160G model) ... http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-bin/displayreview.php?reviewid=6922

Toshiba RD-85DT ... http://www.home-entertainment.toshiba.co.uk/consumer/products.nsf/pages/dvd-dvdrecorde...s?opendocument
review ... http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-bin/displayreview.php?reviewid=6788

which to me looks like the same as the US Toshiba XS35 model with a UK tuner
http://www.toshiba.ca/web/product.grp?lg=en&section=2&group=361&product=6356&category=


The Pioneer is £200 and the Toshiba is £240 on the highstreet. Pioneer reduced could be last one. Toshiba will get cheaper in future.

Lastly I've included the reviews as I wondered what others thought of the reviewer opinons and the test results. How relavant are the results at 4mhz/2mhz SP/LP to me doing VHS-DVD. I'm puzzled as Sony and Panasonic get such good results but there often berated on this site for low quality??


there's other DVDR/HD reviews which might help others here -
http://www.homecinemachoice.com/reviews/index.php?category=DVDRPVRCombis

[StuR]

I'll answer my own post then

JVC DR-MX10Shttp://www.jvc.co.uk/product.php?id=DR-MX10SEK&catid=100086
Also worth a mention is a JVC DR-MX10S
this is like the DR-MX5 mentioned on Lordsmurf's post about RW/HDs.
It doesn't have a digital tuner which is my biggest issue. It's a £180 refurb. in a local shop that gives a 12m warranty, but reliablity is another concern.

Lower res at LP
With referance to the other LS post the subject of keeping full frame dvd res over 2hr came up.
This is really puzzling me as I'd always considered it a positive move. Panasonic wax lyrical about their 4hr/500lines?? But Lordsmurf prefers 250lines? The above review says that the Toshiba 85DT (XS35) holds to full res. at LP, not sure if that's 3/4hr. Pioneer I think goes on for ages.
JVC going from current/'06 models catalogue don't goto 250 after 2hrs they actually stagger down:-
500lines to 2.5hr, 400l to 3.2hr, 350l to 4hr, 250l over 4hr.
Is this the most important factor in why LS prefers JVC DVDR?

Also LG who currently use LSI have full res. in LP. Could this be why LS found the current LG model so poor?

[gshelley61]

Keeping the frame resolution at full D1 past about 2.5 hours on a single layer DVD results in very noticeable motion encoding artifacts (macroblocks, primarily). There simply is not enough bitrate to handle it, at least for a single pass VBR hardware encoder (which is what DVD recorders are).

By going to half D1 for longer recording times, the bitrate is sufficient to deal with motion scenes. The trade off is lower resolution, of course. However, half D1 is perfectly acceptable in many cases (like for VHS).

Full D1 in the LP recording mode is probably OK for sedate low-action dramas and such, but looks terrible for action films and fast-moving sporting events.

[StuR]

Thanks for the input, I do understand what you mean.
I'm still puzzled as LordSmurf recommends the JVC DR-M100 which as I mentioned above drops to 250lines only at 4hr, like all current JVC's. That going against the theory so I can only presume LS doesn't realise this.

Can't for the life of me decide between the Pioneer and Toshiba.
Somethings I've noticed about the Toshiba is that it is very long winded on the controls. The Pioneer looks more user friendly. The 85DT (XS35) has fantastic dvd menu setup. You can get more creative than any other DVD recorder. That's something useful but the picture quality is all important.
see manual 2 p112-113 (from above link)
p130 also details the input adjustable features which I think are less than the Pioneer. Am I reading this correctly?

The Pioneer has various filtering options for incoming sources
http://www.service.pioneer-eur.com/peeservice/RegistrInstrMan.nsf/(CountDownloadinInstructionManuals3)?openagent&ID= 6720C899B6CE6345C125718B0027250D&Attachment=VRB143 9_DVR-540HX-S.pdf p117-118
as well as - white level, black level, chroma level, hue level, most interesting is the adjustable NR which is seperated into Colour and Brightness.

Looks like I'm only going to now for sure by buying one of them and hoping I can get away with a refund if I'm not happy.

[Justin42]

The Toshiba units have fantastic picture quality all around, and definitely have more functionality (editing/DVD creation wise) than the Pioneer. Unfortunately, they are more difficult to use.

The Toshiba does have noise filtering options and it does work pretty well. I don't know how the Pioneer's works, although I don't think it's any better than the Toshiba despite all the options..

[RabidDog]

I have been looking at the exact same two machines,, the pioneer is disappearing from the shelves completely, it would have been my immediate choice , except I read somewhere that it doesnt allow you to store your avis on the hard disk, eg xfr from dvd to hard disk, at the time that was a deal breaker. The toshiba I liked the look of but of course that has no divx support at all. I am now still looking and thinking of just getting a freeview dvd recorder, with some other device (media bucket) holding all my avis. Comet clearance auctions on the web have some stuff at very good prices, but I cant buy from them at the moment. (panasonic emre20d @ 49.99)

[StuR]

I don't know how the Pioneer's works, although I don't think it's any better than the Toshiba despite all the options..

In HQ/SP I'll bet their the same but its all the other bits that you have to look hard into. The 85DT doesn't seam to have the XS35's Proc Amp functions. Only the play function has the colour/NR adjust options, the record seems to have no NR control - don't like that at all. Pioneer has all that. Please be my guest to check the manual links, I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

Comet clearance auctions

Mmm never heard of them will google. Scare picture!
It's actually a comet last display model I'm looking at 440HX £206 (would haggel for more reduction some times works) It doesn't seem long since they where £350.
The toshibas don't seem to have RGB in at all, only the older XS34, so you need a Digital tuner, and your nackered for Sky/Sat?cable. I've got used to the quality of RGB signals I think the American user are missing out with their S-video links.
Comet have a 28day return policy 'if you don't open the box'. If the box is open ie display, not a problem so I may have to test drive it, and be done!

[lordsmurf]

Thanks for the input, I do understand what you mean.
I'm still puzzled as LordSmurf recommends the JVC DR-M100 which as I mentioned above drops to 250lines only at 4hr, like all current JVC's. That going against the theory so I can only presume LS doesn't realise this.

That's not correct. The JVC DR_M100S drops to 352x480 around FR160, which is 2 hours and 40 minutes. The machine is beautiful in FR180 mode (3 hours).

Remember to use VIDEO MODE and not VR mode.

[StuR]

That's not correct. The JVC DR_M100S drops to 352x480 around FR160, which is 2 hours and 40 minutes.

Honestly thats not what the 2006 JVC catalogue says. Of course I'm talking UK spec. I've realised US/UK spec can vary quite a bit.
It seems after further trawling that the UK Toshibas XS24, XS34, XS64, XS25, 85DT all miss out on the ability to control black, NR on/off, comb filter on/off. UK only has brightness adjust all other controls are playback only. Annoying and a big put off, and only the XS34 has RGB scart IN.
If JVC had a HD with RGB scart (they all do) AND a Digital tuner I my consider one. But as for the half frame DVD recording - sure it makes sense that a smaller frame will have less noise, but I'd rather stick full frame at ->2hr as this essentually upscales VHS. I wouldn't be happy throwing out tapes now thinking I've compromised things and copied them at a lower quality just to fit more to a disc.
I'd rather stick two 1.5hr copies together to make a full 3hr copy in the future. It doesn't seem long since CDRW was the norm to me, I can see HDDVD/BD coming before you know it and then bit rates below 10 will seem silly. I'd rather wait in some regards but the attic's full and them tapes are going yucky.

[Seeker47]

The Pioneer 640s are now pretty much gone. The Toshibas seem to be getting much harder to find -- at least at any brick & mortar outlets. I'm wondering if someone can provide a quick comparison of how the XS35 stacks up in features and performance vs. the XS34 and the other previous Toshiba models that were much discussed here ? I'm curious, because this might be a "last call" on picking up an XS35.

[StuR]

I'm wondering if someone can provide a quick comparison of how the XS35 stacks up in features and performance vs. the XS34 and the other previous Toshiba models that were much discussed here

Hi for starters I'm in the UK so we're talking on different terms but there's a few links above which help. Davideck's got a XS52 -I think- which he speaks highly of- best internal TBC and good colour reproduction. From what I've seen the XS35 looks really good, read the manual -link above.
If the XS35 was available in the UK (not the altered version - 85DT) I'd be very interested.

[davideck]

I'm wondering if someone can provide a quick comparison of how the XS35 stacks up in features and performance vs. the XS34 and the other previous Toshiba models that were much discussed here ?

I have the KX50, which is an XS52 with an 80 GB hard drive. It is the ideal Toshiba for me. Excellent PQ. No TVGOS. Low standby power consumption. A quiet fan that is off in standby. Great TBC performance (they may all have this). And a great looking HDMI output.

Its only flaw is the lack of an input black level adjustment.

[lordsmurf]

That's not correct. The JVC DR_M100S drops to 352x480 around FR160, which is 2 hours and 40 minutes.

Honestly thats not what the 2006 JVC catalogue says. Of course I'm talking UK spec. I've realised US/UK spec can vary quite a bit.

It makes no difference in the case of JVC. The machines are identical except for the tuner. EVERYTHING else about the machine is the same. Even the power supplies are for either power system.

The manual/catalog probably just sucks. I've seen NTSC manuals originally written in Japanese, then crappily converted to English. The European PAL ones are probably written in Japanese then German THEN English. I'm surprised it doesn't have more errors. Look, I'll bet you'll find many.

[StuR]

here's the 2 pages from the catalogue that explain DVDR's p22-23.
JVC UK cat. 2006 range.

DR-DX5S
DR-MX10S
DR-MH300S
DR-MH200S
DR-MV5S
DR-M150S
DR-M100S
Notice '400lines' is mentioned twice in the text (no grammatical errors!) and in the graph.
I rest my case your honour.
It does actually go as far to claim superiority of DVDRW's that go to 250 at 2hr. I take it that this due to people wanting high res. for a digital quality source. But this is contrary to the logic of low res. for a poor (VHS) source.

If any of the top makers allowed Resolution and Bitrate control, everyone on this forum would want one. So simple, now I think I get it.
This is something you come across if you've ever use a PC to capture, I haven't and for all the many who want to VHS>DVD not using PC it might be helpful to explain this in a sticky.

Bitrate Optimiser ????
R.E. the JVC scan this feature only on the Harddrive copiers is really interesting. But isn't that what all recorders do as thats what MPEG2 does? Or is it as good as it says. Watching copies from my Sony GX300 on player with a basic bitrate display you can see it go up for action and down for stills. But clearly ProDVD's have much better quality due to better bitrate control.


Doing some more dredging I found this on the LiteOn I considered buying.
- LiteOn 5006 (PAL) LSI processor
720x576 - 9.5Mbps - HQ 60
720x576 - 5.1Mbps - SP 120
352x576 - 3.3Mbps - LP 180

That means as LP is half frame the effective bitrate doubles. That would give you a bitrate 6.6Mps.
So for Toshiba 85DT (manual p.142) that bitrate 6.6 equals 86mins.
Toshiba have the clearest info on bitrate/duration I've found. The highest Toshiba bitrate is 9.2 which starts lower than I've seen else where, even with the sound quality setting on lowest.
I've no idea what Pioneer's rates are there not specified but for the 440HX frame size drops at 3hrs in VR mode - 3/4 size (544x576) at 180m.
In Video mode half frame starts at 270m.

[StuR]

Hasn't anyone got anything to add? After me going to the trouble of scanning in that catalogue

[RabidDog]

Intelligent bit rate optimising .. sounds good .. I have never even looked at any JVC recorders as AFAIK they dont make any dvb-t recorders.. and switchover happening in two years in the US??. I would have thought there should be loads of these recorders being built and sold.

[lordsmurf]

Notice '400lines' is mentioned twice in the text (no grammatical errors!) and in the graph.
I rest my case your honour.

The catalog is wrong. I own the machine. I know UK owners of the machine.

You have no case, and the catalog is wrong. 8)

[Seeker47]

I'm wondering if someone can provide a quick comparison of how the XS35 stacks up in features and performance vs. the XS34 and the other previous Toshiba models that were much discussed here ?

I have the KX50, which is an XS52 with an 80 GB hard drive. It is the ideal Toshiba for me. Excellent PQ. No TVGOS. Low standby power consumption. A quiet fan that is off in standby. Great TBC performance (they may all have this). And a great looking HDMI output.

Its only flaw is the lack of an input black level adjustment.

Thanks for that info. What is the significance of the last two points ? (How important.) This is an older model, and so would be harder to find. What are the prospects for being able to replace / upgrade the HDD or the burner ? (We already have quite a few reports that both procedures are possible on the Pioneers, though more for users with some DIY skills and inclination.)

[davideck]

What is the significance of the last two points ? (How important.) This is an older model, and so would be harder to find. What are the prospects for being able to replace / upgrade the HDD or the burner ?

The HDMI Output is a bonus for HDTV viewers, but the analog outputs are also clean.

No input black level adjustment => IRE Error. As with many DVD Recorders, burned DVDs may look brighter when played on other machines. Later model Toshibas added this adjustment to compensate for 7.5 IRE Sources.

AFAIK, HDD replacement is not easily done.

BTW, I am also impressed with the KX50 performance as a DVD Player. It will play scratched DVDs that my other players won't.

[StuR]

Seeker47

Intelligent bit rate optimising .. sounds good .. I have never even looked at any JVC recorders as AFAIK they dont make any dvb-t recorders..

Yer bitrate optomiser 'sounds' good but is it as unique as it would like to sound? The UK has the DR-M150s which is the M100 with a digital tuner. The US may have a version but no DVB in the HD models like MH300s which is a real wasted opportunity.

Lordsmurf

The catalog is wrong. I own the machine. I know UK owners of the machine.

You have no case, and the catalog is wrong.

adjurned Just read DR-MH300 review, were both right in video mode res. must drop early as only VR mode has the intermedinate res. levels. The catalogue is prosuming you use VR mode like many other makers. Even my Sony for instance claims thumbnail menus/timeslip/adv.editing ... but only on VR mode by the way.

Davideck

I have the KX50, which is an XS52 with an 80 GB hard drive. It is the ideal Toshiba for me. Excellent PQ.

I don't now what the UK ver. of the KX50 or XS52 but the XS32 (80G HD) looks similar. I've seen one for sale (marked, clearly a repair return) and have looked at reviews to find what looks to be some worrying disk reading problems. There also older models so I think only rec. on -R 4x which are scarce. It also seems from the manual that it doesn't produce the great menu's current XS do i.e. menu background pic. selection. Have you had any of these problems? Is this your main recorder?

Toshiba RD-XS32 http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-bin/displayreview.php?reviewid=4786

[davideck]

The XS32 is a different vintage from the KX50 / XS52. Besides the packaging and I/O differences (buttons on top instead of in front, etc.), it probably has a different burner since it supports DVD-RW. The KX50 burns 16X Media just fine. I have not had any problems reading or writing DVDs.

[samijubal]

The KX50 has the exact menu selection that the D-R4 has, which I'm guessing is the same as the XS series. You can select from 8 different menu backgrounds.

[lordsmurf]

Here's another option...

First some limitations:
- only good on composite/s-video input
- do not use the tuner
- does not clean the video, but preserves existing quality
- really only good for recording off satellite or digital cable box

The RCA with 80GB HDD, sold at some Walmarts for about $225.

I use one of these, it works great for my needs (recording digital cable shows). I don't use it for anything else.

And then for cleaning/filtering VHS, I have the JVC units without HDD, and you can find them under $100 right now online from ecost.

So you can get two units for less than the ones you're looking at, and get the best of both worlds still. Potentially, at least.

[StuR]

Davideck

The XS32 is a different vintage from the KX50 / XS52

your right buttons are different, can't figure out the UK equivalant, bit frightened about problems with some XS32, so still considering the 85DT instead, wish the 85DT had the RGB enabled scarts like the XS32, why have Toshiba stopped including them?

LordSmurf sounds like good advice, unfortunatly not in US so that's for US readers only.
I need RGB Scart IN for Digital or DVB tuner, and something for the VHS's.

Has anyone got any links to JVC, Toshiba clips (.vob .mpg - VHS capture pref.). Thanks to Fulcilives I've got a Pioneer example. There must be a JVC clip somewhere, it'd be great to see ->SP and 1/2frame 3hr demonstrated.

[lordsmurf]

See if the RCA made it over the pond. It probably is.

[Seeker47]

The RCA with 80GB HDD, sold at some Walmarts for about $225.

I know you didn't like them, but in regard to the Polaroid 2001G that had (only ?) been available from Walmart: Wasn't this the only model anyone has seen that had:
1. Component INs
2. Some unique passthrough even when turned OFF capabilities
3. A widely reported disregard for Copy Prohibitions, CGMS-A, and the like (?)
4. Replace the HDD or burner as you wish, with no elaborate mandatory procedures.

Or can you find this in other units ? (I'm aware that the Polaroids had qc and other issues.

It seems a bit odd that many Walmarts have continued to have a demo model + a reserved space on the shelves with an I.D. sticker, despite these having been out of stock for months. I have walked into their stores in far flung locations and observed this. They will look it up on their computer and tell you that 4 or more units are due to arrive there in a matter of days, but -- near as I can determine -- they never do. I have to THANK THEM FOR THIS , because this has SPARED ME from making an impulse buy ! (I have to admit , I was intrigued by this thread: https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=319743 )

Anyway, on one of my last visits to a Walmart, I saw a "Coming Soon" notice for some new Polaroid model that has a 160G HDD. I'll be curious to see what sort of reports it draws, compared to the 2001G.

[lordsmurf]

My local Walmart has about 3-4 Polaroids on the shelf. I bet one of them is the unit I returned because it was a piece of crap. Walmart sucks about putting defects back on the shelf. Hell, I would not be surprised if all 3-4 were returns.

I drove 45 minutes away to get my RCA and I've not regretted it.

[LCSHG]

A Quote on the Polaroid 2001G

"3. A widely reported disregard for Copy Prohibitions, CGMS-A, and the like (?) "
------------------------------------------------------------


I could not get any response to questions concerning this. It was also said to be thus, right out of the Box
So I got one and tried it out
I did not find that it disregarded any CP, Analog or Digital --- [If Truly Present, and this is becoming more and more of a problem]
If CP was present the unit would not record

I did think the unit was OK.
I have a friend that has the RCA and ii seems fine
Both are analog and digital compliant


Some units might react differently to different levels Of analog MV --- [VHS tape]

[deuce8pro]

And then for cleaning/filtering VHS, I have the JVC units without HDD, and you can find them under $100 right now online from ecost.

WOW!!!!
I just saw the price they have for it on ecost and thats AMAZING!!
Im gonna have to pick another one up!

[StuR]

LordSmurf

See if the RCA made it over the pond. It probably is.

no never, ever seen them.

No pointers for JVC, Toshiba VHS>DVD example clips to compare? Need to see for myself or its gonna end up being a Pioneer, don't say I didn't warn ya

By the way LordSmurf are the two links on your posts to sites you have anything to do with, theres a copy service, does that mean you are professional or is that purely a sideline?