Passthrough DVD recorder that supports SECAM

[JadHC]

Hello,

I have SECAM VCR and PAL Passthrough DVD ES-10 to stabilize the image.

However, recently, I came across older tapes (1996 and before) where passthrough removes chroma layer when converting from SECAM-to-PAL. (when i use passthrough and signal converts from SECAM to PAL, image is BW. when i do not use passthrough and connect VCR directly to PC and record as SECAM then the image is colorful but shaky).
This happens to 10% of my tapes from 1996 and before and remaining 90% of tapes after 1996 are fine.

Thus was wondering if there is passthrough DVD that supports SECAM too and at least slightly supports the image stabilization.
In online forums I found Panasonic DMR-EH65 that supports SECAM system (it costs 20-60 eur so its pretty affordable) and ChatGPT also suggested Panasonic DMR-EH75V, Panasonic DMR-EX99V. Does anyone have experience with these or can recommend different passthrough device, please? Thanks

[themaster1]

You're looking for a unicorn i believe. Best bet is a standalone tbc with secam support or maybe this https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/409177-VHS-Horizontal-Stabilisation-part-2-Electri...oo#post2705809
edit:
actually it's confirmed the 9700ms don't have a working secam tbc
source: https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-restore/11461-tbc-secam-vhs-2.html

[JadHC]

You're looking for a unicorn i believe. Best bet is a standalone tbc with secam support or maybe this https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/409177-VHS-Horizontal-Stabilisation-part-2-Electri...oo#post2705809
edit:
actually it's confirmed the 9700ms don't have a working secam tbc
source: https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-restore/11461-tbc-secam-vhs-2.html

Hello themaster1,

thank you very much this is most helpful.

I completely forgot about RF shielding foil. I wonder why i didnt purchase it back then. I'll try to get some in EU. Regarding the usage, do I wrap up whole S-Video cables and the connectors in foil and that should stabilize the video? I dont have to disassemble VCR itself and put foil inside, correct?
https://www.amazon.de/Faraday-Shielding-Blocker-Military-Conductive/dp/B0CT8TX8JP/ref=...1zcF9tdGY&th=1

Regarding the video itself, yes, i know that I probably won't get SECAM VCR that has perfect TBC (the unicorn). My hypothesis was this:

Scenario 1: newer tapes: SECAM VCR (not perfect TBC) -> PAL passthrough DVR (TBC) => final video has both color and has perfect TBC [due to passthrough device]
Scenario 2A: older tapes: SECAM VCR (not perfect TBC) -> PAL passthrough DVR (TBC) => final video is BW but has perfect TBC
Scenario 2B: older tapes: SECAM VCR (not perfect TBC) -> no passthrough DVR (TBC) => final video is in color but has shaky image
Scenario 2C (what i wanted to test): older tapes: SECAM VCR (not perfect TBC) -> SECAM passthrough DVR (potentially stabilizes image) => final video is color (as signal is SECAM, not converted to PAL) and it might partially stabilize the image mainly due to passthrough, not due to VCR itself [I'm not expecting miracles, but if passthrough costs ~50 EUR and it at least partially improves the stability, then it would be a good investment]. Do you think it would be worth testing or is this set for doom since the beginning?

[themaster1]

what specific DVR are you refering to ?

[JadHC]

what specific DVR are you refering to ?

For scenario 1, I use Panasonic ES-10, so I was thinking about getting Panasonic DVR that also supports SECAM. I found these that should support SECAM as well = Panasonic DMR-EH65, Panasonic DMR-EH75V, Panasonic DMR-EX99V, but im open to other brands as well. Just like ES-10, DVRs seem to be pretty cheap option to stabilize the image, but not sure if this will apply to SECAM DVRs as well, or just PAL DVRs only, hence, me thinking if I should test it or not...

[themaster1]

It will not apply for a secam source. What can work is a vcr that transcode secam to pal ( jvc hr 7700, 8600ms etc) (i did tests for that)drawback is colours may suffer depending on the tape
Best option is a real tbc with secam support

[DB83]

Interesting topic.

Back in the day there was a 'trader' that sold french-sourced (I expect VHS since none EVER, at that time, were on official DVD). I only acquired one since one often found that european VHS had content not on the UK version. The said dvd was quite solid no obvious issues other than the colour was 'off'. Skin tones were quite yellowish than reddish/pink. And i suspect that the dvd-recorder that created these took a Secam source and internally converted it to PAL. (for the curious I can upload a screen grab to show what I mean)


Now I know that many will not accept this as a TBC but I have had good results from PAL VHS. I own a Canopus ADVC 300 which will accept a SECAM source but with the appropiate setting will output PAL. I can not test this from SECAM since I do not own either a SECAM VHS or VCR but Capopus was a respected company so I merely mention this as an option.

[JadHC]

It will not apply for a secam source. What can work is a vcr that transcode secam to pal ( jvc hr 7700, 8600ms etc) (i did tests for that)drawback is colours may suffer depending on the tape
Best option is a real tbc with secam support

makes sense. And do you happen to know if 9700ms is also able to transcode secam to PAL? Currently I transcode via PAL DVR and there is no impact on color while the TBC is flawless, it just doesn't work for those older tapes for some reason (1996 and before).

I also tried recording both color original SECAM and BW TBC PAL and then mux two videos together (adding chroma layer into PAL version), but for some reason, the frames do not perfectly match so eventually, i see that the chroma is delayed to the luma layer... at least tried that...

[JadHC]

Interesting topic.

Back in the day there was a 'trader' that sold french-sourced (I expect VHS since none EVER, at that time, were on official DVD). I only acquired one since one often found that european VHS had content not on the UK version. The said dvd was quite solid no obvious issues other than the colour was 'off'. Skin tones were quite yellowish than reddish/pink. And i suspect that the dvd-recorder that created these took a Secam source and internally converted it to PAL. (for the curious I can upload a screen grab to show what I mean)


Now I know that many will not accept this as a TBC but I have had good results from PAL VHS. I own a Canopus ADVC 300 which will accept a SECAM source but with the appropiate setting will output PAL. I can not test this from SECAM since I do not own either a SECAM VHS or VCR but Capopus was a respected company so I merely mention this as an option.

I actually own Canopus 300, but I bought new PC and it does not have firewire port and people here warned me against Canopus as it records videos as DV, not AVI and thus worsens the quality... I wonder if i am somehow able to connect Canopus to PC without firewire port though..

[DB83]

Strande idea.

Sure Canopus ADVC records as avi but it is DV avi and pure DV and just that and how does this worsen the quality ? - DV.avi transfers at appro 13 gb per hour much higher than basic avi. But if your PC does not have a firewire port or an add-in card then you are SOL

[JadHC]

Strande idea.

Sure Canopus ADVC records as avi but it is DV avi and pure DV and just that and how does this worsen the quality ? - DV.avi transfers at appro 13 gb per hour much higher than basic avi. But if your PC does not have a firewire port or an add-in card then you are SOL

yeah, I recently bought desktop PC and when assembling it, I asked distributor for firewire and they said they no longer provide it. I could order add-in cart and find someone to install it (not sure if I could manage myself without electrocuting myself). Are there any good add-in cards would you recommend? I presume there isn't USB converter for firewire (something like hauppauge for S-video to usb)?

[JadHC]

It will not apply for a secam source. What can work is a vcr that transcode secam to pal ( jvc hr 7700, 8600ms etc) (i did tests for that)drawback is colours may suffer depending on the tape
Best option is a real tbc with secam support

Back in the day there was a 'trader' that sold french-sourced (I expect VHS since none EVER, at that time, were on official DVD). I only acquired one since one often found that european VHS had content not on the UK version. The said dvd was quite solid no obvious issues other than the colour was 'off'. Skin tones were quite yellowish than reddish/pink. And i suspect that the dvd-recorder that created these took a Secam source and internally converted it to PAL. (for the curious I can upload a screen grab to show what I mean)

wait guys, I think I know what you mean by odd colors. When I first connected my VCR to PC, i did get odd colors and that was due to SECAM tapes but streaming as PAL signal. Here is the thread:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/408948-AmarecTV-not-receiving-correct-video-signal#post2686208
Are those yellow images wrong colors you were talking about? Because if yes, then I do confirm that when I try to stream my SECAM tapes before 1996 as PAL via GraphEdit, I still get wrong colors. For VHS after 1996 the colors are funky, but for VHS before 1996 I get no color, only these rainbows across entire image (attached)... So i think transcoding from SECAM to PAL without passthrough will still not work for those old tapes...

[Alwyn]

people here warned me against Canopus as it records videos as DV, not AVI and thus worsens the quality...

Don't worry, that idea was blown apart recently when a respected English commerical/professional video transferror was outed as using a DV workflow when transferring peoples tapes; it was PAL. There were no complaints from anyone here.

As for DV, I have not tried this but have a go outputting from your ADVC 300 to the Fireport port on your ES-10 (if it has one; my ES-15 does) then capture the output.

If you're looking for a Firewire card, follow this topic:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/414349-Best-1394B-PCIE-Card-That-Still-Works-with-DV-Camcorders

They are pretty straightfroward to fit. Pull out the power plug and you won't zap yourself!

DV.avi transfers at appro 13 gb per hour much higher than basic avi.

Lossless AVI is at least twice that bitrate.

[JadHC]

people here warned me against Canopus as it records videos as DV, not AVI and thus worsens the quality...

Don't worry, that idea was blown apart recently when a respected English commerical/professional video transferror was outed as using a DV workflow when transferring peoples tapes; it was PAL. There were no complaints from anyone here.

As for DV, I have not tried this but have a go outputting from your ADVC 300 to the Fireport port on your ES-10 (if it has one; my ES-15 does) then capture the output.

If you're looking for a Firewire card, follow this topic:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/414349-Best-1394B-PCIE-Card-That-Still-Works-with-DV-Camcorders

They are pretty straightfroward to fit. Pull out the power plug and you won't zap yourself!

DV.avi transfers at appro 13 gb per hour much higher than basic avi.

Lossless AVI is at least twice that bitrate.

Oh, Spicy. I asked ChatGPT if my ES-10 has FireWire port and ChatGPT did not disappoint
I then took photos of the DMR (it looks similar to ES-15 photos on Ebay). Is one of these ports Firewire? I do not see DV-input anywhere...

Otherwise, ill get the add-on card. thanks for providing me the link to the discussion <3

[themaster1]

wait guys, I think I know what you mean by odd colors. When I first connected my VCR to PC, i did get odd colors and that was due to SECAM tapes but streaming as PAL signal. Here is the thread:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/408948-AmarecTV-not-receiving-correct-video-signal#post2686208
Are those yellow images wrong colors you were talking about? Because if yes, then I do confirm that when I try to stream my SECAM tapes before 1996 as PAL via GraphEdit, I still get wrong colors. For VHS after 1996 the colors are funky, but for VHS before 1996 I get no color, only these rainbows across entire image (attached)... So i think transcoding from SECAM to PAL without passthrough will still not work for those old tapes...

Looks very wrong to me

[The_Doman]

I actually own Canopus 300, but I bought new PC and it does not have firewire port and people here warned me against Canopus as it records videos as DV, not AVI and thus worsens the quality... I wonder if i am somehow able to connect Canopus to PC without firewire port though..

The old "war of opinion" - Capture 8mm tapes in DV or lossless?

DV provides decent results, but it has two downsides: compression noise and limited colorspace (especially NTSC). For most people who aren't perfectionists, given that they are starting with VHS/SVHS/8mm/Hi8mm which are all pretty lousy to begin with, the damage done by DV's limitations are often the least of the problems in the capture.

Is it not possible to use the Canopus 300 just as a analog pass-through function without using the DV functionality?
Or just try it?
Google: Canopus 300 passthrough

[lordsmurf]

There is no DV box passthrough. It is DV output, period.

[DB83]

There is no DV box passthrough. It is DV output, period.

Sorry my friend. I have proved on here that the ADVC does indeed offer passthrough - composite in and composite out (and I guess it would be the same for s-video)


As far as this topic is concerned, I can not confirm that a SECAM input would passthough to a PAL output. But it would still offer SECAM analog to PAL DV which is part of the quoted spec.

[BW37]

Per their (PAL) service manuals, it seems the ES-10 does not have DV input but the ES-15 does. The ES-15 (and later models?) has a 4 pin DV connector on the front under the flip down cover that hides all of the front IO connectors.

[Alwyn]

@JADHc, sorry, I led you on a wild goose chase, the ES10 doesn't have a Firewire input. On the ES-15, the FW input is on the front (AV3), under the door.

In any case, I tried it and you can't passthrough the DV signal, so my idea won't work. You can only record from DV direct to a DVD in the machine.

[JadHC]

wait guys, I think I know what you mean by odd colors. When I first connected my VCR to PC, i did get odd colors and that was due to SECAM tapes but streaming as PAL signal. Here is the thread:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/408948-AmarecTV-not-receiving-correct-video-signal#post2686208
Are those yellow images wrong colors you were talking about? Because if yes, then I do confirm that when I try to stream my SECAM tapes before 1996 as PAL via GraphEdit, I still get wrong colors. For VHS after 1996 the colors are funky, but for VHS before 1996 I get no color, only these rainbows across entire image (attached)... So i think transcoding from SECAM to PAL without passthrough will still not work for those old tapes...

Looks very wrong to me

Hey there, apologies for later reply. I was away from home for couple days. Just got back and tested the tape again just to make sure. Here is the result:
- VCR without passthrough DVR = SECAM signal - in color but no TBC
- VCR without passthrough DVR = PAL signal (any regions) - no color (just heavy cross color rainbow) however, TBC is working. Surprisingly, I get same results if I do VCR without passthrough DVR as PAL and if I do VCR with passthrough as PAL. in both cases, TBC works but there is no color, just very heavy cross-color

[JadHC]

There is no DV box passthrough. It is DV output, period.

Sorry my friend. I have proved on here that the ADVC does indeed offer passthrough - composite in and composite out (and I guess it would be the same for s-video)


As far as this topic is concerned, I can not confirm that a SECAM input would passthough to a PAL output. But it would still offer SECAM analog to PAL DV which is part of the quoted spec.

oh wow, really? I think in the beginning I was testing S-video in, S-Video out and hauppauge and i could not get any signal. Canopus has red light blinking.
Would you be willing to explain how you got it to work (or redirect me to your post if you posted manual elsewhere, please). Did you use hauppauge to connect Canopus to PC? And what software did you use (Amarec or Canopus software), please? Truly appreciate your help on this. I can test Canopus over this weekend if it supports S-Video and SECAM signal....

[JadHC]

Per their (PAL) service manuals, it seems the ES-10 does not have DV input but the ES-15 does. The ES-15 (and later models?) has a 4 pin DV connector on the front under the flip down cover that hides all of the front IO connectors.

@JADHc, sorry, I led you on a wild goose chase, the ES10 doesn't have a Firewire input. On the ES-15, the FW input is on the front (AV3), under the door.

In any case, I tried it and you can't passthrough the DV signal, so my idea won't work. You can only record from DV direct to a DVD in the machine.

thank you both for answers. No worries that it doesnt work. You at least saved me money by not purchasing another DVR and doing trial and error experiment on it. So thanks both this is helpful.

[DB83]

There is no DV box passthrough. It is DV output, period.

Sorry my friend. I have proved on here that the ADVC does indeed offer passthrough - composite in and composite out (and I guess it would be the same for s-video)


As far as this topic is concerned, I can not confirm that a SECAM input would passthough to a PAL output. But it would still offer SECAM analog to PAL DV which is part of the quoted spec.

oh wow, really? I think in the beginning I was testing S-video in, S-Video out and hauppauge and i could not get any signal. Canopus has red light blinking.
Would you be willing to explain how you got it to work (or redirect me to your post if you posted manual elsewhere, please). Did you use hauppauge to connect Canopus to PC? And what software did you use (Amarec or Canopus software), please? Truly appreciate your help on this. I can test Canopus over this weekend if it supports S-Video and SECAM signal....

I have been away for some days but will get 'back up to speed'


For now, I can certainly state that the ADVC300 manual does show what hardware changes you must make to achieve this. Allow me a few hours since I have been travelling for much of this day. Some years ago I did post the ADVC300 manual to a topic. But I will find my own copy and show the settings required. Patience will always reward.

[DB83]

I wanted to re-upload the manual but for some reason an AI error is generated.

However, from page 18 the DIP switched SW1 are thus described :-


No.5 NTSC Setup Level setting
Allows you to set the black (setup) level. This switch is effective
only in the NTSC format.
OFF: 0 IRE ON: 7.5 IRE (North America, South Korea)
No.6 Video Format setting
Allows you to select video signal format.
OFF: NTSC ON: PAL
When both of No.5 NTSC Setup Level and No.6 Video Format are set
to ON, the SECAM format is used.
* At this time, the SECAM format is used for input and PAL format for
output.



Make sure your power is off before altering the switches. Hope this helps.