8mm telecine. Back to basics for me.

[super8rescue]

For three years I have been using the dreaded Wolverine scanner to scan cine films.

Very many thousands of feet have been scanned.

For the last two years, I have been using a modded Wolverine scanner that takes one frame per second in jpg or tiff.

It is nice not to have the Wolverine compression and artifacts with a jpg scan, but I am only managing 720p

Added to that, scanning at one frame per second means 400ft of 8mm takes EIGHT HOURS which is highly irritating.

Just for fun, today I took out the projector, a peice of paper and my Samsung Galaxy camera and just 'filmed off of the wall'

I have to say, I hold my hand up to those who say I can achieve better results this way, and agree with you, because apart from a slight focus error, the results are better than a basic Wolverine scan by a mile

I wish now I had not given away the 'telecine' box I used to have, that sat in front of the projector, at which you would point a video camera.

I have some proper rear projection screen material at work, I will bring a peice home and try a rear projection capture next.

Easy to flip the picture back in edit.

I am determined to capture in real time...

I am aware of strobing problems that need to be overcome, but to my surprise, this morning experiment had none after a splice went thro the gate, that may have just been coincidence.

If you have any tips and tricks, I should be delighted to learn from you.

If you want to see my experiment/results, it is on my YT

https://youtu.be/pHu0w-y5Aco

[hello_hello]

Have you checked the frame rate to see if the camera did create 25fps video, or if the video frame rate was of a more variable nature?
I ask, because I'm fairly sure my Samsung smart phone adjusts the frame rate according to it's surroundings. I have a Plasma TV, and if I point the camera at the TV while it's refreshing at 60Hz, I can see the rolling shutter/strobing effect at first, but the camera quickly syncs itself to the TV and it goes away. When the TV's refreshing at 50Hz the same thing happens, and I think the frame rate changes to 25 or 50fps.

I don't have any video handy that was shot near my TV while it refreshed at 50Hz, so that's just what I recall happened years ago when I tested it. Maybe it has something to do with the strobing vanishing from your tests. How many times does the projector flash the projection light for each frame? Is three times a standard thing?

Does anyone know how cameras go about syncing themselves to a flashing light source, assuming I'm remembering correctly and that's what they do? They'd have to do the same when used under florescent lights., wouldn't they? Florescent lights flash in time with the power cycle, don't they? I can't remember.

[super8rescue]

I ask, because I'm fairly sure my Samsung smart phone adjusts the frame rate according to it's surroundings.

I have a Plasma TV,

The camera is not a Samsung smart phone, it is a Samsung camera, so who knows....

I also have a plasma tv, fabulous things, I should point the Samsung at the tv and see what I get.

Thanks for taking the time to type...


[Attachment 58312 - Click to enlarge]

[DB83]

When you say 'telecine box' do you mean the film was projected in to it and a video camera caught a right-angled image via a mirror ?


Many moons ago I 'dabbled' in transferring 8mm film and I acquired a 'Kaiser' from a company in London - Lee's Cameras. Forget the cost but it was not cheap.


I still own it (in original box with accessories) but am unlikely to ever use it again. Feeling kinda generous right now so if you want it it's your for the P+P. PM if you are tempted.

[super8rescue]

When you say 'telecine box' do you mean the film was projected in to it and a video camera caught a right-angled image via a mirror ?

Yes, that's the thing.

Many moons ago I 'dabbled' in transferring 8mm film and I acquired a 'Kaiser' from a company in London - Lee's Cameras. Forget the cost but it was not cheap.


I still own it (in original box with accessories) but am unlikely to ever use it again. Feeling kinda generous right now so if you want it it's your for the P+P. PM if you are tempted.
Oh yes indeed. thank you.

Thank You, very generous. I will attempt to send you a pm. I really do regret giving my telecine box to the charity shop.

I thought I knew better having a Wolverine scanner.

I don't profit from my scanning work for Royal Navy lads, I do it because I am ex RN too, I don't profit from my YT channel, non monetized, so, thank you.

That said, I just googled Kaiser and all I saw was a device for still images from 35mm film.
Perhaps I have the wrong device.


[Attachment 58313 - Click to enlarge]

Cheers.

[DB83]

This one.


https://www.widescreen-centre.co.uk/kaiser-copy-box-for-video-transfer.html


Check out that friggin' price !!!!!!!

[super8rescue]

This one

Check out that friggin' price !!!!!!!

That looks like the business.
I would be very happy to have that arrive at my doorstep.
I have sent you a pm.
I am happy to cover your costs plus a drink or two.

It would be put to good use.
I scan cine film for Royal Navy Veterans, I only charge them £1 per minute of film, so it really is a hobby, not for profit.

Many Thanks for your kind offer.

I have sent contact details in a pm.

[ozymango]

If you have any tips and tricks, I should be delighted to learn from you.

Cheers to DB83 for the generous gift of the transfer box!

I've been dinking around with 8mm/S8mm film transfer to digital for a while now, a "while" being "several years now," and I've now figured out about a hundred ways that don't work ... ...

Anyway, the "just filming off the wall" method is definitely workable for watchable "real-time" transfers, but one real improvement I stumbled across that may or may not be something you might try for yourself, depending on your budget and mechanical skills/interest: An "Aerial Image" projector setup. I really should work up some pix and a guide to my own experiments, but short version --

First, I have a little Canon Vixia camcorder that is my telecine camera -- it's got a long range optical zoom lens that was critical to making this work, because it's all about the optics between the projector and the camera -- to have no screens between the film and the camera, it's all done with lenses. Makes for really nice detail.

I have an old GAF dual 8 projector, model similar to this, this is a very popular and fairly inexpensive projector for telecine projects: https://www.amazon.com/GAF-1564-Dual-Super-Projector/dp/B07L3RTJHQ

I did a refurb on mine, put in new belts (easily available on ebay), swapped out the lamp with a variable-brightness low wattage incandescent bulb (I tried an LED but I like the "warm" light of incandescent), and swapped out the AC motor with a DC motor and PWM speed controller. This was so I can match the speed of the projector with the shutter speed of the camcorder so the image doesn't "roll." Well, it doesn't roll as much, anyway.

Then the secret trick: If you take the lens cover plastic piece off the projector, and take out the lens, it just so happens that a 1" diameter 16mm projector lens (which is called a 2" lens, if you're looking on ebay, used to be able to pick these up pretty cheap) fits pretty much perfectly where the original 8mm projection lens went, and (long story) the diameter of the 16mm lens, combined with the focal length, allows you to aim the camcorder *into* the projector lens, and by tweaking the zoom and focus, you can pretty much fill the entire camcorder frame, with the frame of the projector. If that made sense. Then you record the film in "real-time" and flip it front-to-back and left-to-right afterwards, using your favorite software.

Now I've been experimenting with all sorts of telecine methods/projects for years, and I've never quite got things working perfectly on any of them -- but this method is really solid for getting about 90% of what I've hoped to accomplish, certainly in terms of quality for real-time recording.

[poisondeathray]

There are some issues with disjoined, or split frames. Some portion of top or bottom of frame will be partially from previous or next frame. I suspect it's from the scan rate on that camera's cmos rolling shutter sensor vs. the projection rate.

The problem would be reduced or eliminated if you ran some integer multiple framerate of the projection rate. e.g. if you could set a variable speed projection at say, 20 fps, then record at 60. (3x clean duplicates) or something like that. But that would only work in NTSC land or 60Hz mains frequency. In the UK, the lighting would cause flicker. You'd have to work out some 25Hz multiple and recording rate. Maybe 50p and 16.667fps

[super8rescue]

If you have any tips and tricks, I should be delighted to learn from you.

Cheers to DB83 for the generous gift of the transfer box!

I've been dinking around with 8mm/S8mm film transfer to digital for a while now, a "while" being "several years now," and I've now figured out about a hundred ways that don't work

Thank You for your typing. interesting words. I couldn't agree more, 100's of ways that don't work....

If cine film can be seen again, then it works, it is just a question of making it look nice to see again....

I don't have a budget, I have what I have....

[super8rescue]

The problem would be reduced or eliminated if you ran some integer multiple framerate of the projection rate. e.g. if you could set a variable speed projection at say, 20 fps, then record at 60. (3x clean duplicates) or something like that.

But that would only work in NTSC land or 60Hz mains frequency. In the UK, the lighting would cause flicker. You'd have to work out some 25Hz multiple and recording rate. Maybe 50p and 16.667fps

I will just duck, as that went clear over my head.

Thank You for taking the time to write me comments, I really do appreciate it.

[DB83]

I will (probably) bore the pants (English underwear) off you with the following but the red grape is talking so to quote whoever said it "I don't give a damn"


Roll back to 2008 and I was pulling through a dehabitiling, but not life-threating, illness. But one that still, at times, will kick in. I could not hold down a 9-5 so I looked for a means to, hopefully, build up a little business. I already had the kit to do vhs transfer but I thought it potential to add Super8 transfer to the mix.


I forget the name of the company or the products (which could well have been individually modded projectors) that offered scanning but a cost of £800-£1500 was well beyond my means. So I plumped for the 'Kaiser'. As it turned out I had but one customer and for a reason I forget now I still had to borrow his projector since the one I had obtained was not compatable. (From a earlier experience* with s8 I could test out the 'Kaiser')


I have no knowledge of the Wolverine but there is an active thread on here about the Reflecta which is much more affordable than those I looked at way back when. I have contributed to topics on similar units and my gut feeling is that the user was pushing the product in using too large a reel >> 50ft and 200ft ok but even if a 400ft reel fitted I guess it was too heavy.


*Yet this 'failed' business is not my first venture into Super8. Back in the 80's I had all the Super8 equipment. Including a quite clever attachment to a Eumig projector that displayed the film on a quite small screen. Yet, and this is the real purpose of this rant, if anyone has such as system today (I sold all of mine years before my business 'hunch') one could easily point a camera at this attachment. Perfect picture AND sound. Something that no scanner can do.


Of course, no mirror-box can be as efficient as a good scanner. One only has to compare today's dvd/blu ray transfers that are scanned rather than telecined


Rant over. (And so 'hic' is the wine )

[super8rescue]

I will (probably) bore the pants (English underwear) off you with the following but the red grape is talking so to quote whoever said it "I don't give a damn"

You'll not bore me...

Of course, no mirror-box can be as efficient as a good scanner.

I am going to put a £3000 camera in front of my mirror box this weekend, and see how that looks.
I shall need some red grape after that...

[ozymango]

You're not boring me in the least, I've been an 8mm movie maker/fan since I was a kid (back in the 60s), and worked for a video transfer shop in the 1980s and 90's. We used 3-tube video cameras to transfer 8mm/S8mm/16mm films to VHS and Beta tape. State of the art! Well it was back then, anyway.

EDIT: While those 3-tube video cameras are now quite obsolete (and yikes were they expensive back then), the Elmo projectors we used cost more today, then they did back then!

[super8rescue]

I borrowed a £3000 camera for a few days.

I can finally admit it is possible to get a better 'off the wall' cine film scan than it is from a Wolverine.

This is my Sankyo 501 aimed at a bit of matt white card and the Sony camera pointed and zoomed in to the card

Manual settings for iris, focus, shutter speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PN1QEQ1die0

[DB83]

I have just watched your latest yt vid - the one with landings (gee I wish they would do what they promised and actually notify subs of a new vid)


Anyway, it is quite impressive but I guess that the 3K camera is the ultimate factor in this. Of course when that goes back you will have to 'manage' with what you have.


With one exception, I did not record to the camera when I transferred with the Kaiser. I used it as the 'eye' and did the actual recording as, effectively, an analog (since it was a Hi8 camera) to digital capture via a Canopus ADVC 300.


The one exception was a year or two after the business when a family friend, who had been generous enough to finance a slide scanner (shame that there is no 8mm adapter for these since that could be another potential option), asked me to transfer a cine of a Sunday School nativity (I am sure I spotted my younger sister as an angel in that)


A month or so ago I contemplated selling the Hi8 camera and in this topic post I illustrated it working with a tape I had found with the camera that turned out to be that recording.


https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/400965-Transfer-Tape-cassette/page3#post2613004


If you watch it you will notice quite severe flicker but I am sure that can be treated post-capture (I am sure I did so back in 2008)


The other thing I must mention is your 'experiment' in reversing the input and outputs of the Kaiser. There must be a perfectly good reason why it is set up as it is.

[super8rescue]

I have just watched your latest yt vid - the one with landings

I used to fry chips for those lads.

[DB83]

^^ But did you fry chips for Status Quo when they filmed that video on The Ark

[super8rescue]

^^ But did you fry chips for Status Quo when they filmed that video on The Ark

Before my time. I was there when they made the Sailor tv series in 76 to her final commission

[DB83]

I know I drift off-topic (but you started it )


The song actually came out in 2002


Video here:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvuXPQrXZdE


Now I do not know one ship from one chip so it may not have been The Ark (was there a later one with the same name ?)


But I seem to recall they also did a special concert onboard a year or so earlier.

[super8rescue]

I know I drift off-topic (but you started it )


The song actually came out in 2002


Video here:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvuXPQrXZdE


Now I do not know one ship from one chip so it may not have been The Ark (was there a later one with the same name ?)

That's the later Ark Royal R07
I went to the Falklands on her sister ship Illustrious R06
Both now turned to razor blades.

I was on the previous Ark Royal incarnation R09
We had Rod Stewart and his awful 'I am Sailing' malarkey