New Old Guy Needs Guidance VHS AV to Digital Transfer for Upload To Web

[airkiss7]

Hello,

I have a situation where I'm trying to upload content from VHS tapes to social media, mostly interviews with many Old-timers I've met reliving their life stories.

My tapes are from the mid '90s era. Captured on a Panasonic camcorder capable of recording to S-VHS. My tapes are high quality, mostly S-VHS and were always stored indoors climate controlled. ALL my tapes look/sound VERY good for the format when played from my Panasonic Omnivision SVHS DynaAmorphous Metal Head 4 VCR, and routed to modern Flatscreen TVs with composite cables (No S-video). I clean the heads maybe too often.

My CPU is a 2026 Dell Pro Tower Plus Ultra 7 265 32GB DDR5 512 GB SSD Windows 11 Pro Integrated graphics card Intel Graphics. The Elgato 4K Pro card is installed in it. Currently using the ClearClick AV2 HD 2.0 converter connected from the VCR with "Quality" gold plated cables (this converter does NOT offer S-video input). Am using a UL certified power supply to it. The latest version of OBS Studio is downloaded (32.2.2).

This ClearClick conv provided the best (?) video image of the bunch I've tried, Sound Beast, Yitrox AV are 2 of 3-4 I remember. The CC 2.0 conv I'm using currently at least provides a video image the is Jitter-free, with good color resolution and saturation, although the image is somewhat DARK, also the Blacks are NOT a uniform dark black, but have a lot GREY swimming around in them. I've tried to look at the available tutorial videos regarding OBS set-up, though none seem to show the exact settings catagories that are represented with my 32.2.2 version. My biggest complaints are the somewhat dark image, and the blacks swimming with grey blotches.

Does anyone know if image the OBS screen shows is actually what will be recorded with the Elgato 4K Pro card? What OBS settings should I be looking at specifically looking at for my issues? Are my issues more related to the CC 2.0 converter I'm using? What set-up are you getting good results with to accomplish what I'm attempting?

Thanks in advance for any kind input !

Joe & Ruth

[aramkolt]

Clearclick and/or OBS are unlikely to give you very good results at all. There are lots of tutorials on here, most of which will suggest an SVHS VCR at a minimum (even for regular VHS tapes, but since your tapes actually are S-VHS, there's even more to be gained). You generally want to capture interlaced with something like Virtualdub or AmarecTV using a USB capture device that will capture interlaced over S-Video using something like the IOData GV-USB2 or Hauppauge Live 2 in terms of devices you can still buy new, there's lots of other older cards that are well regarded. You'd then use a different program to de-interlace/upscale that like hybrid or avisynth using QTGMC. Ideally the VCR would also have a line TBC, or you could use a DVD recorder for passthrough to stabilize the output.

[airkiss7]

Thanks for your prompt response, I'll investigate your suggestions.

[lordsmurf]

my Panasonic Omnivision SVHS DynaAmorphous Metal Head 4 VCR,

The "Omnivision" decks are just plain consumer VHS VCRs, with SQPB, not the best, not real S-VHS.

I clean the heads maybe too often.

Don't do that. It damages. Clean when needed, not when not.

Elgato 4K Pro card

Not good for this task.

Currently using the ClearClick AV2 HD 2.0 converter

Even worse. It's a meat grinder to video quality.

OBS Studio is downloaded (32.2.2).

Don't use that either. OBS is digital streaming recording software, not analog videotape capturing software. It records video from the display layers, and badly processes it.

This ClearClick conv provided the best (?) video image of the bunch I've tried, Sound Beast, Yitrox AV a

That's all garbage, mostly "Chinese brands made specifically for Amazon", not an actual product from a quality company.

I've tried to look at the available tutorial videos regarding OBS set-up,

It will never work.

Does anyone know if image the OBS screen shows is actually what will be recorded with the Elgato 4K Pro card? What OBS settings should I be looking at specifically looking at for my issues? Are my issues more related to the CC 2.0 converter I'm using? What set-up are you getting good results with to accomplish what I'm attempting?

This biggest issues here are (1) wrong software, (2) garbage capture cards, or wrong capture cards.

Video capture isn't this hard when using quality gear.

something like the IOData GV-USB2 or Hauppauge Live 2

That advice isn't good anymore.
- The "new version" GV-USB2 is a giant piece of crap, as it distorts geometry. It was never the best card, but atl east the older versions were passable.
- The Live2 cards have stability issues, and have always been some of the touchiest cards around.

These cards would be trading errors, not removing errors.

[VWestlife]

My tapes are from the mid '90s era. Captured on a Panasonic camcorder capable of recording to S-VHS.

Do you still have the camcorder? Does it still work? If so, use it to play your tapes, not the VCR.

In addition to being true S-VHS rather than your VCR's Quasi-S-VHS playback, most S-VHC(-C) camcorders have a built-in Time Base Corrector (TBC), which is essential for getting stable, good-quality video capture from analog videotape.

Jump to 14:17 in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2TpDZw9AwQ

[airkiss7]

Thanks Guys !


Considering my age (73), I wish I had more of an aptitude for computers. I love capturing video/audio, as well as still images. What has held me back is investing the time in learning how to edit. I've collaborated with a local guy on a friend's project, and was astounded at what he could do in his garage/bedroom. I have 41 yrs experience as a High-end Racing Engine Machinist. I have all the skills with the machinery needed, included crank grinding and cylinder head porting. I'm currently doing a complete engine rebuild on an engine for a car like this; https://rmsothebys.com/auctions/lf07/lots/r192-1952-osca-2000s/ This $10M car also has an engine I completely rebuilt, this is also the shop I currently work at; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REDgzUTK8to . I only mention this stuff to establish that I am capable of dealing with complex things, but more like nuts and bolts I can hold in my hands, not electrons flowing in boxes and wires as such.

Thank the Gods I get all these converters and cards, ... etc from Amazon Prime so I can wring them out and return hassle-free when they disappoint. The input I've got so far from this Forum is priceless (PS, when my accountant comes over in 2 days, I will have her navigate sending in $$ for support). I'm removing, and boxing all the stuff you've indicated as substandard, and returning.

As of now, I'm thinking that if I can at least transfer my VHS tapes to DVD without sending them off to some unknown operation and possibly losing them in transport, I'd feel better as I know the tape is fragile and prone to damage in the machine. As such, is there a recommendation for a quality (within reason for an amateur) DVD transfer device that can accept the signal from my VCR/Camcorder. Somewhere I got a line on the Sony VRDMC5. Is theree something that has proven to you that it can copy a DVD that loses VERY little from the original VHS tape? If I could keep the price point below $500, it would be something I could afford. My VHS tapes look GREAT when played on the OmniVision and displayed on a large screen flat screen TV.

Thanks ever so much to help keep the memories alive that I have collected !

[Darryl In Canada]

Joe & Ruth, I'm going to skip past the OBS settings questions, because the settings aren't your real problem. The chain you've built is fighting you, and no amount of tweaking sliders will fix it.

You're throwing away your best asset. You have S-VHS tapes, played on an S-VHS deck, and you're feeding them out over composite (yellow cable). Composite mashes the brightness and color together into one signal, which the converter then has to guess how to separate again.

The ClearClick is the wrong tool. It's an HDMI-path all-in-one box. Cheap HDMI capture is designed for modern digital sources, not 1990s analog tape, and it's "deinterlacing" your 480i on the fly before you ever see it. That's a permanent loss. Once it's baked in, you can't get it back. You've been comparing four of these boxes against each other, but they're all the same category.

Here's what I suggested, as others have too.

Playback: Your Panasonic S-VHS deck, using the S-Video output. That's it, you're done here. Keep cleaning heads, but ease off. Over-cleaning wears them.

Stabilizer: Check whether your deck has a built-in line TBC. If not, put a Panasonic ES-15 (or ES-10) in passthrough between the deck and the capture device. This is what kills waviness and stabilizes the signal before capture.

Hardware capture device: A proper SD capture device that records to a lossless format over S-Video. The I-O Data GV-USB2, Hauppauge USB-Live2, or an ATI 600 USB. These are the classics for clean standard-def capture and they cost less than what you've already spent on converters.

Capture software: Drop OBS for this. It's built for streaming, not archiving. Use VirtualDub 1.9.11 with HuffYUV or UT Video as the video codec, or else use AmarecTV software. This will allow you to capture the interlaced footage.

Post-processing: Then deinterlace in software afterward. Software deinterlacing on your computer is dramatically better than anything a box can do in real time, and for interview footage (talking heads, hand gestures, people leaning in) that difference is very visible. Capture the archival master interlaced, then produce your social media versions from it. I have a free tool for this step (VCG Deinterlacer) and a walkthrough on the channel. You can also use the free tool Hybrid, which has many more options but a longer learning curve.

I have an overview video here that provides an overview of the capture device options and discusses the de-interlacing issue.
https://youtu.be/dTGe0HVDK9I

This one explains why S-Video is better than Composite (yellow cable).
https://youtu.be/McFurc_Uqxc

[lollo]

- The "new version" GV-USB2 is a giant piece of crap, as it distorts geometry. It was never the best card, but atl east the older versions were passable.

Complete bullshit.

There is no "new version" of GV-USB2, and there is no distorted geometry. The reference is this hread, where is evident a pathetic attempt to belittle the IOData card: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/420443-4-different-IODATA-GV-USB2-s-tested-with-sa...-Like-Activity

Reading and analyzing the thread anyone can see that the claimed "distorted" geometry refers to the card connected to a bad VCR to check the (non existing) GV-USB2 capabilities to perform some sort of time base correction.

Carefully reading the whole thread is very instructive!

From the original post:

Test setup:
1. My absolute worst VCR - a basic Panasonic Omnivision that I've held onto because it was my family VCR from the 90's that unquestionably saw several thousand hours of use for timeshiftimg TV shows. I can't even feel the head protrusion when cleaning the heads with paper. The heads being extremely worn also explains why the HiFi audio sounds like crap.
2. The tape being played is an original/commercial release of "The Fugitive" - likely an Ex-Rental that is in decent shape. Definitely has Macrovision.

you can see IOData in action in this post https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/418973-Info-IOData-GV-USB2-capturable-range/page2#post2801741

- The Live2 cards have stability issues, and have always been some of the touchiest cards around.

Another non sense. The claimed stability issues again refers to a workflow where no time base correction is in place, which is not recommended.

Once a clean and stabilized Y/C signal is provided to the card, the capture results are excellent, as shown by the many samples available on the forum and my own captures.

To OP: post #7 is excellent

[Sharc]

- The Live2 cards have stability issues, and have always been some of the touchiest cards around.

Another non sense. The claimed stability issues again refers to a workflow where no time base correction is in place, which is not recommended.

Depends how one defines "stability". The Live2 does have AGC issues (auto contrast reduction or however we call it) which gradually turns down the brights. Visible if brights in the upper luma range are persistent for some time (few seconds).

[lollo]

Depends how one defines "stability"

lordsmurf has no clue about it. He's just putting smoke in the eyes, as usual.

We discussed a lot about new Hauppauge drivers and "auto-adjustement" here: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/418973-Info-IOData-GV-USB2-capturable-range and here: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/418254-Info-Hauppauge-USB-Live-2-capturable-range, and my conclusion was that any card has more or less some level adjustement (see the GV-USB2 in post https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/418973-Info-IOData-GV-USB2-capturable-range#post2781625), depending on hardware revision and driver; in real live and with real material (no test signals) I did not find any serious issue with the 2 cards.
YMMV, of course, as usual.

Moreover, what i see is that sometimes the AGC in the cards are triggered by a bad frame/field in the tape.
Here a sample:

[Darryl In Canada]

Joe, given everything you just told me, I'm going to change my advice. The Sony VRD-MC5 DVD recorder is a legitimate choice for you.

The lower bitrate concern doesn't really matter as much for your material. DVD recorders compress more heavily than the lossless USB capture route, and that's usually the knock against them. But compression hurts most when there's a lot of motion on screen like fast pans, action, crowds, sports. Your tapes are interviews. So that is about the easiest thing in the world for MPEG-2 to encode. The lower bitrate is going to cost you very little on this specific content.

Here's the big however, and please don't skip this part.

What the Sony writes to that disc is an interlaced MPEG-2 file. Interlaced video is a leftover from the CRT television era. It looks fine on a DVD player hooked to a TV, but the moment you put it on YouTube or a modern flat screen, you get ugly comb lines and jagged horizontal streaks on every movement. So the DVD disc is not your finish line. It's the middle of the process. The full path looks like this:

1. Record VHS to DVD on the Sony.
2. Put the disc in your computer and copy the VOB files off it.
3. Convert those VOBs to an MPEG-2 file.
4. Run that file through deinterlacing software.
5. Now you have something that looks correct on YouTube.

Keep in mind that you will only be able to record 1 hour video onto a DVD at the best setting. So, if you source video is longer than 1 hour, then you will need record the rest of it onto another disc. So, that is kind of annoying.

Steps 2 through 5 sound worse than they are. I built a free tool for exactly this, aimed at people who don't want to touch a command line: VCG Deinterlacer. It's a Windows program with an easy step-by-step process. There are advance options, but you can skip those. It uses the same high-quality open-source deinterlacing the pros use, but you don't have to know any of that.

And on my channel I have a video that walks through the DVD-to-YouTube-file conversion end to end. That video covers steps 2 and 3, and the deinterlacer handles 4. Watch that one before you start ripping discs and you'll save yourself a lot of guessing.

Two things to do while you're setting this up:

Use the S-Video output on your Panasonic OmniVision into the Sony, not the yellow composite cable. The Sony VRD-MC5 accepts S-Video. Your tapes are S-VHS on an S-VHS deck, so this costs you nothing and preserves noticeably more picture detail. This is the one piece of my earlier advice that still fully applies.

Final thought: If you want the easiest option for digitizing videos, then consider an all-in-one device like the ClonerAlliance ViewLiteAV. It has a tiny screen, and digitizes, and deinterlaces on the fly, and saves to an mp4 file. Unlike the DVD recording, with this device you can record a video of multiple hours, so you don't have to worry about the 1 hour time limit of the DVD method. That's huge. . I did a review of it here. If you don't want to bother with steps 2, 3, and 4 above, then this device (or one like it) is for you. Yes, it has some flaws. Will anyone notice? Probably not. I've watched old clips on the Johnny Carson and David Letterman YouTube channels that have some issues, so viewers will just ignore any imperfections because they came to watch the content you published.

Bottom line, there are trade off in the quality/ease of use in the field of analog-to-digital video. I like to give people context so they can decide for themselves based on their time, experience, budget, etc.

[airkiss7]

Darryl, You Da Man !

I was feeling dejected that my project was doomed since I would never publish anything of a poor quality. I know my content is something that folks will want to see, and honor those, now gone, that should have their memory live on.

I'll research your suggestions after work .

Thanks !!!

Joe & Ruth

[airkiss7]

Hey Darryl,

I really didn't expect, but appreciate ALL the input from the Experts here.

I DID order the Sony VRD-MC5 2 days ago. But just this AM I remembered a relic I have from the past that was passed over due to issues with it not operating. I have a JVC SR-MV30. When plugged in, there would be a small arc at the plug insertion, the display would read "Loading" while flashing. Couldn't insert a tape, as the tape carrier seemed to be halfway up, blocking the cassette. Figured I had nothing to lose, so I removed the cover. I then gently tried to get the carrier to go down with the power on. It went down, and the head was spinning and the arms moved to engage the tape. Pushed eject and it seemed to do what you'd expect. Put a beater tape in and it seemed to load and turn with the head.

Took the unit to the desk, and hooked up the RCA cables, And it played a 40 yr old tape that was ripped from a Blockbuster rental with suprisingly good quality. I watched your tutorial, and seemed to recall the SR-MV30 Listed at the top of the screen.

Does having this JVC unit make your recommendations to my program any different ? I haven't tried burning a DVD with it yet.

Thanks !

Joe

[Darryl In Canada]

Hey Joe. That's an amazing find.

Lord Smurf (who is one of the experts on this forum and DigitalFAQ) confirmed in a forum post that the JVC SR-MV30 is a JVC SR-V10 S-VHS deck with a DVD recorder bolted onto it. And the DVD recorder half uses the LSI chipset, which is the recommended one. Not one of the mediocre chipsets that shows up in most consumer DVD recorders.

That means you have one of the recommended S-VHS players with the coveted line TBC feature, which is exactly the piece I was telling you to go find and which is the single most important part of the whole chain. And it has good DVD recorder built into the same box.

So, which workflow should you use? Your options are now:

1. JVC SR-MV30 straight to its own built-in DVD recorder
2. JVC SR-MV30 out via S-Video into the Sony VRD-MC5
3. JVC SR-MV30 out via S-Video into ClonerAlliance ViewLite AV

There won't be any meaningful difference between options 1 and 2. Between these first two options, I would lean towards option 1 because you won't need to buy a S-Video cable.

But keep in mind the following about that SR-MV30. It was a professional-class machine. It may well have lived in a TV studio, a university AV department, or a duplication house, which means it could have far more hours on it than any family VCR ever would. So it's possible there are hardware problems lurking, especially given the arcing at the plug and the jammed carrier you already dealt with. Second, it's entirely possible the DVD recorder half is dead even though the VCR half plays fine. Those are two separate mechanisms. Test it before you count on it. Given the arcing you described, I'd also have someone look at the power supply before you run long unattended sessions on irreplaceable interview tapes.

Whether you pick option 1 or 2, you end up with a 1-hour DVD-Video disc. You still need to copy the VOB files to your computer, convert to MPEG-2, and deinterlace with software. Those steps are fairly easy, and the video on my channel walks through the DVD-to-uploadable-file conversion, with VCG Deinterlacer handling the last step.

And if after all this you decide you want the absolute simplest path with no computer work at all, my earlier comment about the ClonerAlliance ViewLite AV still stands.

[airkiss7]

As an addition to my above (#13) post, The JVC SR-MV30 plays my SVHS tapes extremely well when routed to a large flatscreen TV using RCA cables over a 12 ft length. When I switch over to the DVD side it will say it's "Reading" with the swirling disc icon, and then give a "Disc Error" message. It does this with a Commercial movie DVD, as well as a blank DVD-RW disc. This player has S-Video out, as well as the TBC function listed on it's front panel. Can I be using this as the first link in the chain since it has TBC, S-Video out, and is SVHS ? I bought this unit brand new 20+ yrs ago, just for copying these tapes.

[Darryl In Canada]

Regarding the DVD not playing, you can try some other ones (eg, commercial movie, home-made DVD, CD-Audio disc, etc.) just to confirm, but in all likelyhood the problem is likely the laser diode is weak or dying. So, that means that Option 1 is off the table.

Fortunately, you have equally good Option 2: JVC SR-MV30 ---> S-Video cable + Red and White cables ---> into the Sony VRD-MC5

And yes, the TBC feature lives in the SVHS circuitry of the VCR. So you will benefit from it when you playback the video, and send the signal to the Sony.

By the way, in case you didn't get all the way through my videos the TBC feature in the VCR will fix wobbly images on recordings. Given that your source are SVHS footage and you're playing back on an SVHS VCR (with a Line TBC feature), I think the result will look very nice.

[Sharc]

Regarding the DVD not playing: Make sure there is no region code conflict between the DVD and the Player
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD_region_code

[VWestlife]

Interlaced video is a leftover from the CRT television era. It looks fine on a DVD player hooked to a TV, but the moment you put it on YouTube or a modern flat screen, you get ugly comb lines and jagged horizontal streaks on every movement.

If your media player app isn't de-interlacing MPEG2 video, then it is broken. Try VLC Media Player or MPC-HC.

And what you say about YouTube is 100% false. You can rip a disc made using the Sony DVDirect, and then directly upload the interlaced MPEG2 file to YouTube, and YouTube will automatically de-interlace it, and even preserve the original closed captions of the VHS tape:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvWBdN0SnD0

[lollo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvWBdN0SnD0

VWestlife, what's this crap?

Did you make it in purpose to show some defects? Did you over capture/denoise/process/did_not_process or whatever in purpose?

Just tring to understand...

[VWestlife]

VWestlife, what's this crap?

A VHS recording of analog TV reception with "snow" in the signal. YouTube's compression can't preserve all that fine detail, so the result looks as if it had heavy noise reduction applied. The same thing when a video shows confetti and suddenly the image quality goes to crap.

The point was not to demonstrate the video quality, but to debunk the myth that YouTube does not de-interlace videos that are uploaded.

[lollo]

A VHS recording of analog TV reception with "snow" in the signal. YouTube's compression can't preserve all that fine detail, so the result looks as if it had heavy noise reduction applied. The same thing when a video shows confetti and suddenly the image quality goes to crap.

Thanks! Can you post a sample fo the original capture without any processing?

The point was not to demonstrate the video quality, but to debunk the myth that YouTube does not de-interlace videos that are uploaded.

The quality of the youtube deinterlacing needs to be assessed, so again a sample fo the original capture without any processing would be nice.

[airkiss7]

Thanks for ALL the great advice !

$20 donation just sent to help keep this site on-line

Joe & Ruth

[Darryl In Canada]

If your media player app isn't de-interlacing MPEG2 video, then it is broken. Try VLC Media Player or MPC-HC.

In my tests with VLC Auto deinterlacing, it leaves jaggies in places. Yes, good enough for a video you don't plan on watching again, but for my home videos, I prefer to use QTGMC to process the video to ensure the deinterlacing is done fully.

And what you say about YouTube is 100% false. You can rip a disc made using the Sony DVDirect, and then directly upload the interlaced MPEG2 file to YouTube, and YouTube will automatically de-interlace it, and even preserve the original closed captions of the VHS tape[/video]

In my tests with videos captured/encoded with the HuffYUV codec, and then uploaded to YouTube, the video has combing artifacts. With an m2ts interlaced file, YouTube appears to deinterlace, and in my test doesn't showing combing, but I don't trust that YouTube uses the best method. The consensus is that it uses Weave. So, for those reasons, I prefer to deinterlace using the QTGMC method.