Mini DV to Digital Transfer Dissatisfaction

[btvarner]

This is rather long so I could touch on everything I thought was important to understand. In checking previous posts, to me things are unclear. Here are my specifics:

< Windows 11
< Mini DV tapes transferred to digital
< Process used—

a) JVC GR-DVL505U Camcorder
b) RCA AV cables from camcorder, to
c) StarTech USB Video Capture Cable SVID2USB232. S-Video or Composite to USB 2.0
d) Connected to USB port on PC
e) MovAVI Video Editor SE 11 (Came with converter & suggested for use. Converted at 720 x 480 resolution.)
f) Video/audio converted by software into .mkv file (MovAVI native format)
g) File converted from .mkv to .mov using AVS Video Converter software
h) .mov file opened in Adobe Premiere Elements 2023. Modified, exported as .mp4 file.

The results were poor quality. The data went from Mini DV to .mkv to .mov to .mp4. As you can see, this is a convoluted process. I was unable to get Premiere Elements or VLC to recognize the converter cable/device, hence could not do the conversion directly into Premiere Elements. The only software I could find & download that recognized the .mkv files was AVS. Only then could I get a file into Premiere Elements to edit & export as the finished .mp4 file. Neither the camcorder or the converter cable has FireWire capability. So now the questions:

1) Is there a way to get Adobe Premiere Elements 2023 to see & adept the conversion directly?

2) Is my hardware setup wrong or not optimal?

3) Is an S-Video connection higher quality than the RCA AV cables? Both the camcorder & the converter cable has capability for such connections. If S-Video is used, does S-Video transfer both video & audio? Or do I still need to connect the sound part of the RCA connectors?

4) AM I just expecting too much quality?

Thanks!

[Bernix]

I read manual for your camera and there isn't anything about firewire. Should be DV out on your camera. Firewire transfer is only proper way to capture MiniDV tapes to PC. With exception of some brands but all got firewire as option. Can you post small part of video you get? To know what quality you get. MiniDV quality should be good SD video.

[btvarner]

Thanks! Not sure I understand. I know there is no Firewire option, that is why I used RCA or S-Video. Firewire cannot be the only "proper" way, if that method is not available, right? Here is a snippet of video from the above process.
https://brucevarner.com/picts/My%20new%20video%20project_1.mp4

[lollo]

First of all, capture Y/C YUV 4:2:2 lossless with AmarecTV or VirtualDub

[Sharc]

I read manual for your camera and there isn't anything about firewire. Should be DV out on your camera. Firewire transfer is only proper way to capture MiniDV tapes to PC. With exception of some brands but all got firewire as option. Can you post small part of video you get? To know what quality you get. MiniDV quality should be good SD video.

Firewire = i.link = IEEE 1394. It's available with this camera, see the manual:

[Attachment 84221 - Click to enlarge]
[Attachment 84222 - Click to enlarge]
S-Video should give decent results as well if done properly.

4) AM I just expecting too much quality?

How should we know what you expect? Upload a sample of your capture.

Edit: just noticed that you uploaded a sample while I posted.

Edit2: It's crap. Interlaced video upscaled without deinterlacing and stored as progressive video, dropped frames, wrong AR .....
Transfer it digitally via FireWire (aka i.link aka IEEE 1394), or if taking the S-video route do as lollo suggested in post#4.

Edit3: Here a quick and dirty attempt to fix it partially; not recommended at all though.

[lollo]

Yes, if dv out is available, transfer (not capture) the data from tape to PC with Scenalizer Live or WinDV. There are many threads dealing with modern OS about DV transfer

[btvarner]

OK, let me find a Firewire cable and see..................

[Bernix]

You will need firewire card in computer as well. Supposing you have it not. I saw on internet new for 20USD with cable.

[btvarner]

OK I checked. Have an old Firewire cable, but not Firewire in the laptop or PC. Will run to Micro Center & get one............

[btvarner]

Is this the right one, if I order it from Amazon for tomorrow???
https://www.amazon.com/ELIATER-Firewire-Windows-Express-Controller/dp/B07N2WQZTS/ref=s...s%2C146&sr=8-6

[Alwyn]

@btvarner, these Firewire cards are a bit hit and miss, but that card will be as good as any so I would give it a go. If you want some more info on DV transfer, have a browse through my notes here.

Let us know how you get on with it.

[Alwyn]

These comments apply if you can't get the Firewire transfer to work.

Is there a way to get Adobe Premiere Elements 2023 to see & adept the conversion directly?

IMO, this is your stumbling block. For best quality, you need to find a lossless AVI codec that Elements will import. You can then capture with that and avoid the multiple re-encodes.

Is my hardware setup wrong or not optimal?

No, it's fine. The Startech is a reasonable digitiser. I have it's big brother and it works well.

Is an S-Video connection higher quality than the RCA AV cables?

Yes.

If S-Video is used, does S-Video transfer both video & audio?

No. You run the audio separately using an RCA cable.

AM I just expecting too much quality?

Not at all. I didn't think your sample was all that bad (lack of deinterlacing not withstanding), given all the re-encoding that went on. It will certainly be better either using DV/Firewire or a one-step analogue capture workflow.

You should eventually deinterlace your video (jaggies). Elements should have a feature for that. You've currently got burned-in jaggies; that would have occurred with one of those conversions.

[Bernix]

I think best bet for firewire card is with texas instruments chipset. I read about it and own such card as well, working perfectly. Such card should have TI in name of product.

[Alwyn]

I read about it and own such card as well, working perfectly.

What Windows version are you on?

I recommend the VIA chipset cards for Win 11. TI were ok for Win 10.

[Bernix]

What Windows version are you on?

I am on win10 yes.

[Sharc]

@btvarner: If you don't want to take the risk with the DV route (hardware) you can get very decent (even better for NTSC) results with S-Video. You need however to revisit at least steps e),f),g),h) of your process.
Do you have a sample of the capture from step e) which is 720x480 interlaced so someone may take a look? You may have to skip the Movavi and use AmarecTV instead ....

[lollo]

I think best bet for firewire card is with texas instruments chipset.

That's a legend. It depends on many factors.

[lollo]

@btvarner: If you don't want to take the risk with the DV route (hardware) you can get very decent (even better for NTSC) results with S-Video.

Original recording is DV, so there is nothing better than a digital transfer of the data recorded on the tape.

What's the meaning of "even better for NTSC" in this contest?

[Sharc]

@btvarner: If you don't want to take the risk with the DV route (hardware) you can get very decent (even better for NTSC) results with S-Video.

Original recording is DV, so there is nothing better than a digital transfer of the data recorded on the tape.

What's the meaning of "even better for NTSC" in this contest?

Inferior 4:1:1 color subsampling for NTSC DV vs 4:2:2 for S-video capturing or 4:2:0 PAL DV I meant. But ok, his original is 4:1:1 NTSC DV already. I had VHS sources in mind which he wanted to digitize with the NTSC DV camera. My bad.

[lollo]

Inferior 4:1:1 color subsampling for NTSC DV vs 4:2:2 for S-video capturing I meant. But ok, his original is digital 4:1:1 DV already. I had VHS sources in mind which he wanted to digitize with the NTSC DV camera. My bad.

No problem. I knew it was just a misunderstanding

Out of contest, I have serious doubts about this legend of NTSC DV 4:1:1 being inferior to PAL DV 4:2:0 when digitizing Analog using a DV approach, but that's another story; at some point in time we'll discuss about that, with real experiment and samples...

From a trusted source https://www.youtube.com/@ReelyInteresting:

4:1:1 was designed to be a good digital approximation of the best analog consumer formats: ~540 lines of luma with ~120 lines of chroma.
VHS HQ & similar performed around ~240 lines luma and a paltry ~30 lines chroma so it theoretically could fit well within the constraints of 4:1:1 subsampling!
The downside of 4:1:1 is that the chroma resolution is so low that it is clearly visible (and a more annoying stairstep than the soft amplitude roll off of analog formats) if not properly low-pass filtered.

But...4:2:0 means you are dropping/rounding every other line of otherwise full resolution horizontal color in exchange for higher color resolution vertically. As a result, it is a terrible idea for consumer formats when you have such low chroma resolution to start with. 4:2:0 is a far closer approximation of professional video formats where vertical color resolution and horizontal color resolution were closer to each other.

I'd sooner take 4:1:1 NTSC DV than 4:2:0 DVD, PAL DV, etc for dubbing VHS & similar and only use 4:2:0 for pro-mastered sources (like Hollywood movies)...

[Sharc]

^^^^ (link? I didn't find this discussion)
Interesting. I don't have native 4:1:1 DV experience. One would also have to take YUV<->RGB conversion and interlacing format effects into account for the full picture, I think.
Here some ideas for experimenting:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/294144-Viewing-tests-and-sample-files

Sorry going off topic.

[btvarner]

OK, I received the Firewall card this morning. Will install it shortly and report back. Something else however in the meantime. You guys are discussing display resolution & ratios. One thing I am noticing (You can see it in the sample I uploaded) is that the resulting image seems to be slightly "narrow" in playback. In the example, the front door, chairs & such seem ever so slightly narrower or compressed then the actual scene. Anyone know the reason for that? Thanks!

[Sharc]

OK, I received the Firewall card this morning. Will install it shortly and report back. Something else however in the meantime. You guys are discussing display resolution & ratios. One thing I am noticing (You can see it in the sample I uploaded) is that the resulting image seems to be slightly "narrow" in playback. In the example, the front door, chairs & such seem ever so slightly narrower or compressed then the actual scene. Anyone know the reason for that? Thanks!

DV video is - like DVDs and analog captures - anamorphic distorted, means the pixels are not square pixels. Your player has to "unsqueeze or unsquash" the picture upon playback, or you do this when you reencode it, means you convert it to square pixels.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel_aspect_ratio
In addition to this, something went wrong with your example.

Maybe that's for a later discussion with your forthcoming captures. Good luck with your "FireWALL" card

[lollo]

One thing I am noticing (You can see it in the sample I uploaded) is that the resulting image seems to be slightly "narrow" in playback. In the example, the front door, chairs & such seem ever so slightly narrower or compressed then the actual scene. Anyone know the reason for that? Thanks!

No idea what you did in post-processing (sample is 1920x1080). Original capture should be as Rec601 specification: 720x480 with a 4:3 DAR (Display Aspect Ratio).

When displaying accordingly all the proportions are respected (in fact it sould be cropped to 704x480 to be really accurate, but that's another story)

^^^^ (link? I didn't find this discussion)
Interesting. I don't have native 4:1:1 DV experience. One would also have to take YUV<->RGB conversion and interlacing format effects into account for the full picture, I think.
Here some ideas for experimenting:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/294144-Viewing-tests-and-sample-files

The whole discussion was inside this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NuquTDhjGY&t=3s

Yes, at some point in time we should experiment this once and for all

[ProWo]

f) Video/audio converted by software into .mkv file (MovAVI native format)
g) File converted from .mkv to .mov using AVS Video Converter software
h) .mov file opened in Adobe Premiere Elements 2023. Modified, exported as .mp4 file.

Are you satisfied with the quality of f)?
Can you post a mediainfo report (text mode) from f) here?
You may be able to mux f) to mov losslessly (without step g)).
This depends on the codecs used.

[btvarner]

OK, like I would ever expect anything to be easy. My machine will not boot with the Firewire card installed.

My PC has the ASUS TUF Gaming X570-PLUS motherboard (ACPI BIOS Revision 1404). Has functioned fine for the 2 years since built. When firewire PCi card is installed, the computer comes on, but will not even boot to/past bios. When the Firewire card is removed, the PC functions as normal. Place card back in & same thing happens. Changed which PCi slot I place the Firewire card into. No difference. Cannot locate any bios references to Firewire.

I understand the possibility that the new card itself is bad, but would it just not work if that was the case?

[Bernix]

I believe it would be solved modify bios with some compatibility things.

I think there. But don't do anything if somebody don't tell you do it, with PCs knowledge.


CSM (Compatibility Support Module)
This item allows you to configure the CSM (Compatibility Support Module) items to fully
support the various VGA, bootable devices and add-on devices for better compatibility.
Launch CSM
[Enabled]
For better compatibility, enable the CSM to fully support the non-UEFI
driver add-on devices or the Windows


Viz manual to Mobo. Chapter 3 Boot menu.
I can be wrong but at least something that can be issue.

[btvarner]

Here is all the motherboard manual says about CSM & a view of the BIOS location. I enabled CMS & left all other settings the same. Same result. I am not sure what to change any of the other CMS settings to???:

[Attachment 84241 - Click to enlarge]

[Bernix]

Here
https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/firewire-card-preventing-pc-from-booting.2511034/


he has success with Legacy OPROM

[btvarner]

Just tired it. Didn't work. Changed from "UEFI & Legacy OPROM" to "Legacy OPROM Only". Did not work. Would not boot, kept asking for a boot device. I did not try "EUFI Only".........................