1T-TBC - How to determine version

[Traderbam]

Hi, I know there's little love for these things especially for later versions but what are the signs to indicate what version one is?

Colour bars are the SMPTE-style bars with white reference. Anything on the board to indicate a date? I don't think the 0525 means anything relevant.

Any other clues?

[videoAI]

To determine the version of the circuit board you have, you can look for several indicators:

🛠️ Version Indicators

1. Silkscreen Markings
- Check for any printed text on the board itself. This often includes version numbers, model numbers, or other identifiers. Look for markings near the components or along the edges.

2. Date Codes
- Some components may have date codes printed on them. These codes can indicate when the component was manufactured, which might help you infer the board's version.

3. Component Labels
- Look for labels on the main chip (in this case, the one labeled "LTB-110 V1.0 50506"). The "V1.0" suggests that this is version 1.0 of the board.

4. Firmware Version
- If the board has a microcontroller or programmable logic device, it may have a firmware version that can be accessed through a specific interface or by connecting it to a computer.

5. Manufacturer Documentation
- If you have access to the manufacturer's documentation or website, you can often find versioning information based on the model number or other identifiers.

6. Visual Differences
- Compare the board visually with known images of different versions. Sometimes, revisions will have different layouts, components, or features.

[Traderbam]

So can I take from that that values like 05-25 on the side and S0506 might indicate a year of 2005?

[lordsmurf]

especially for later versions

That's because the latter units have flawed chipsets, and actually induce dropped frames. And sadly, probably 75%+ of 1T models are from that era. So odds of finding a non-flawed unit "in the wild" (eBay/etc) are slim in the 2020s. You usually have to connect with professionals to locate these. (And I do know where I can acquire some, but it's not eBay/Facebook prices. Those sellers want, and deserve, a fair value for their quality gear.)

Colour bars are the SMPTE-style bars with white reference. Anything on the board to indicate a date? I don't think the 0525 means anything relevant.

None of that means anything here.

Any other clues?

Where did you get this image? (Did you take it yourself?)

I'd need to see more images, all sides, all internals and externals.

So can I take from that that values like 05-25 on the side and S0506 might indicate a year of 2005?

No, that's not how it works.

"05-25" could many any number of things. Unless the datasheets for the chips/OEM specify the number's meaning, or you have verifiable information on what it means, you're just guessing (and probably quite badly).

You must realize that high-end video gear was highly guarded in the 90s-2000s. Almost all consumer-format TBCs were made in Taiwan, and China was infamous for their IP theft at that time. Thus these Taiwanese manufacturers, not being China's friend at all, did everything possible to prevent cheap knockoffs from existing. And it actually worked. Chinese companies never KO'd TBCs. There was other reverse engineering going on, but not China. No TBC was ever produced in China that I'm aware of, neither the legit "patient zero" units, nor the KO'd/stolen (and cheapen) units.

To determine the version of the circuit board you have, you can look for several indicators:

I really wish people would quit copy/pasting inaccurate ChatGPT-generated bullshit.

If you don't know the answer, move along. You're not helping. We can use the AI chatbots, too.

[Traderbam]

Have emailed you separately LS.

[Traderbam]

I've added a few samples from a test capture on my Panasonic NV-HS860 - one with the 1T-TBC in the loop, the other with no TBC, 860 directly to capture card. Any comments on any visual impact from having the 1T-TBC in the loop?

[lollo]

Better to provide the same sequence with TBC on/off

[Traderbam]

Apologies, shared the wrong cuts.

[lollo]

A quick analisys on my side:

with TBC

• frame 1 duplicated (probably inserted by the capture card)
• distortion (highlighted in purple): https://imgsli.com/NDA0MzQw
• loss of details (yellow flowers on the right, among others)
• histogram less convincing:
  
  

Overall comparison:


Even trying to adjusting the overall look of the TBC capture for brightness and saturation I still prefere the noTBC image: https://imgsli.com/NDA0MzQx

However, although introducing obvious "manipulation" on the original source, an external TBC is required to clean the signal, avoiding timing errors across frames (to avoid dropped frames among other benefits).
This is just a short sequence, so it is entirely up to you to establish if it is worth using it.

My approach is to do not use if not necessary, and this small sequence is one significant example. YMMV!

[Traderbam]

Thanks for that analysis. Is it worth trying a different deck and s-video cables to see if that distortion is replicated across different setups?

LordSmurf has confirmed that this looks like a green-era 1T-TBC but perhaps it isn't one of the better units. Would that be a possible explanation?

[lollo]

Thanks for that analysis. Is it worth trying a different deck and s-video cables to see if that distortion is replicated across different setups?

In the existing equation the only difference is the presence or not of the TBC, so it should be ok, but any additional experiment you can run add value to the comparison.

LordSmurf has confirmed that this looks like a green-era 1T-TBC but perhaps it isn't one of the better units. Would that be a possible explanation?

I have no idea, I just base my conclusions on real facts, like comparison of the samples you provided.

[Traderbam]

How does one go about generating that image that shows distortion levels? I'd like to be able to set up some of my own tests here.

[lollo]

Avisynth/VirtualDub:
- open the sources and align the sequence using stackhorizontal() and trim; while there move across frames to visually check dropped/inserted frames
- replace stackhorizontal() with interleave to better see differences in the pictures; while there eventually add crop() and histogram("levels") to assess the levels
- eventually equalize the levels and the histograms to uniform the overall look, with colorYUV()/Tweak() or dedicated histogram matching plugins
- copy the source frame to the keyboard (same frame of both sequnces) and past to paint (for instance) and save in png format
- upload the images to a slider comparison site like img.sli.com; it compress to jpg, so the comparison is somehow "crushed"; other sites allow png comparison directly. You can also build your own img/video comparison tool in html (for instance) if you prefere

[Traderbam]

Perfect, I will try that.

What are your recommendations for solving bad chroma bleed? I have a very old farming tape from mid-80s where the reds and blues in particular bleed very badly. It seems to be bleeding on all sides so a simple shift left didn't seem to work. I tried FixChromaBleeding() avsi plugin which seemed to make it a bit more tolerable.

Any advice please on how you would handle these clips?

[lollo]

Sanlyn had some succes with resizing and sharpening chroma after FixChromaBleeding(): https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-restore/9303-chroma-bleed-problem.html

In your case I would also experiment different values of C parameter inside the code of the function FixChromaBleeding itself (which is hard-coded):

...
# prepare a version of the image that has its chroma shifted and less saturated
  input_c = input.ChromaShift(C=-4).tweak(sat=0.8)
...

I cannot try myself because I am not on my main PC.

[lordsmurf]

I still prefere the noTBC image:

Those comp images are not using the same fields.

Additionally, TBC proc amp units can experience drift over time, and I often calibrate and notate units I sell. For this exact unit, it may be as a simple as +1 on the contrast, it that will give unity. It will become nearly invisible that a TBC is even in the workflow, which is what you want. It silently does it's job.

This assumes he actually reset the proc amp, and it's now on unity. Some people "never touch the buttons" when they should.

LordSmurf has confirmed that this looks like a green-era 1T-TBC but perhaps it isn't one of the better units. Would that be a possible explanation?

Perhaps. I did see signs that point to latter-early. Each successive generation of Cypress degraded some, as parts were replaced, and firmware updated. It's still extremely tolerable in your unit. And drift may account for the tiny % image change.

A/B comparisons are somewhat silly for video, as the source often needs to be corrected anyway. VHS wasn't ideal values intrinsically, between muddy darks and low bandwidth chroma. Certain devices attempt to correct for that, while others conflict with capture cards. It's not as easy as random items cobbled together, and then compare it pseudo-scientifically. Pro users easily spot this nonsense, but casual/amateur users are fooled (and wrongly led to believe that methodology is correct).

The better approach is to find items that give outstanding quality and problem-free experience -- meaning good VCRs with line TBCs for image quality, frame TBC to stabilize signal, and a good capture card that doesn't fight you (although initial setup is always a chore, mostly learning curve ana PEBKAC errors).

I think this thread accomplished the basics, you've located a great TBC. A slight image drift was noticed, and +1 contrast probably fixes it -- assuming you're currently at unit (RESET!).

Anything else here is pointless. Go work on your project, not pseudo-"test" the gear.

What are your recommendations for solving bad chroma blee
Any advice please on how you would handle these clips?

^ And this is project.

Wrong device, I can't look at the moment either.

[Traderbam]

I'm sure I did the reset but it may need more tweaking. On one particular tape it was noticeably worse compared to my other tbc with heavy oversaturation and much more visible chroma bleed. Maybe that is drift as you mention or else the reset functionality isn't working on the procamp.

Will test again.

[lordsmurf]

I'm sure I did the reset but it may need more tweaking. On one particular tape it was noticeably worse compared to my other tbc with heavy oversaturation and much more visible chroma bleed. Maybe that is drift as you mention or else the reset functionality isn't working on the procamp.

Will test again.

Sometimes reset needs to be pressed a few times. Be firm but gentle, and slow and deliberate.

The buttons can, and do, fail. Especially if a hamfisted brute (ab)used it, which has been far too common since 2020.

Chroma problems can exist, but that often runs deeper, chip level, and you're screwed. I don't see a major issue, but it can be more revealed per tape.

These are all things I look for on gear I refurb. Age and mishandling has made it multiple times harder in recent years.

[lollo]

I still prefere the noTBC image:

Those comp images are not using the same fields.

You must be joking.

Additionally, TBC proc amp units can experience drift over time, and I often calibrate and notate units I sell. For this exact unit, it may be as a simple as +1 on the contrast, it that will give unity. It will become nearly invisible that a TBC is even in the workflow, which is what you want. It silently does it's job.

It is quite difficult with the AviSynth filtering (ColorYUV, Tewak, Levels, etc,) and with its plugins (GamMatch, HistogramAdjust, MatchHistogram, etc.) to match the intrinsic video chatacteristics that thinking that a simple +1 on the constrast visually equalize the capture with the TBC is a complete non sense.

Any external device (a TBC in this case) is not transparent nor silent, and introduces a more or less significant alteration of the image.

A slight image drift was noticed, and +1 contrast probably fixes it

According to my criteria, is not slight at all (the +1 constrast sillliness was already commented).

A/B comparisons are somewhat silly for video, as the source often needs to be corrected anyway. VHS wasn't ideal values intrinsically, between muddy darks and low bandwidth chroma. Certain devices attempt to correct for that, while others conflict with capture cards. It's not as easy as random items cobbled together, and then compare it pseudo-scientifically. Pro users easily spot this nonsense, but casual/amateur users are fooled (and wrongly led to believe that methodology is correct).

Complete bullshit. Science is science and math is math. Period.

The better approach is to find items that give outstanding quality and problem-free experience -- meaning good VCRs with line TBCs for image quality, frame TBC to stabilize signal, and a good capture card that doesn't fight you

The better approach is to experiment and judge basing the conclusions on real facts and data and not to trust blind (sometimes wrong) suggestions.
In this case is eveident that if not need to correct instabilty in the tape the usage of TBC is harmful as well as useless.

[lordsmurf]

a. You've clearly never used this TBC model line.
b. You're just being contrarian again, and intentionally rude again.

[lollo]

a. You've clearly never used this TBC model line.

1. stay on topic and reply to facts with facts and not with speculations.

b. You're just being contrarian again, and intentionally rude again.

2. the other way around. You have been rude and contrarian replying with ravings on technical facts:

2a. you started with "Those comp images are not using the same fields.", and just few lines of an AviSynth script can deny that.

2b. you wrote then "A/B comparisons are somewhat silly for video", which is self explanatory of [read here whatever you likes].

"as the source often needs to be corrected anyway", which has zero impact on the topic [always start from the better capture, and apply corrections later].

"VHS wasn't ideal values intrinsically, between muddy darks and low bandwidth chroma", and that's why I am comparing a VHS capture with a TBC versus the same without TBC. [Right equation, same conditions]

"It's not as easy as random items cobbled together, and then compare it pseudo-scientifically.", and what is pseudo-scientific or not scientific at all is your aptitude, not mine.

"Pro users easily spot this nonsense, but casual/amateur users are fooled (and wrongly led to believe that methodology is correct).", and the only nonsense I read here is your talking about pro users versus casual/amateur users about facts, science and math, in your desperate attempt to climb on mirrors.

Finally, who has been rude and contrarian?

[lordsmurf]

2a. you started with "Those comp images are not using the same fields.", and just few lines of an AviSynth script can deny that.

The fields are not the same. What you have is a frame with A/B fields, then B/C (actually B/A) fields. It's offset. All you have to do if load both images in a sequence, and tick back and forth.

2b. you wrote then "A/B comparisons are somewhat silly for video", which is self explanatory of [read here whatever you likes].
"as the source often needs to be corrected anyway", which has zero impact on the topic [always start from the better capture, and apply corrections later].
"VHS wasn't ideal values intrinsically, between muddy darks and low bandwidth chroma", and that's why I am comparing a VHS capture with a TBC versus the same without TBC. [Right equation, same conditions]
"It's not as easy as random items cobbled together, and then compare it pseudo-scientifically.", and what is pseudo-scientific or not scientific at all is your aptitude, not mine.
"Pro users easily spot this nonsense, but casual/amateur users are fooled (and wrongly led to believe that methodology is correct).", and the only nonsense I read here is your talking about pro users versus casual/amateur users about facts, science and math, in your desperate attempt to climb on mirrors.
Finally, who has been rude and contrarian?

I stand by all of my statements here. All I can say is that you're not getting it. You don't know this model TBC. You're comparing variables lacking constants. You're taking a very simpleton approach to video here, A/B is a "for dummies" methodology that glosses over nuance. I'm not sure if you're being obtuse, or genuinely don't see your judgement errors.

But what I do know is that you've become very unpleasant to interact with in recent years, and I'm not the only one that has noticed. Almost every VH thread you participate in is snippy, rude, or confrontational. What happened to you? I had some awful things happen to me in recent years, but I'm not a jackass because of it.

[lollo]

I stand by all of my statements here. All I can say is that you're not getting it. You don't know this model TBC. You're comparing variables lacking constants. You're taking a very simpleton approach to video here, A/B is a "for dummies" methodology that glosses over nuance. I'm not sure if you're being obtuse, or genuinely don't see your judgement errors.

The only judgement errors and obtusity I see here is yours. [among other nonsense, "A/B is a "for dummies" methodology that glosses over nuance" is another of your attempt to put smoke in the eyes]

But what I do know is that you've become very unpleasant to interact with in recent years,

Only with raving charlatans.

and I'm not the only one that has noticed.

Post some reference and links to prove your statement.

Almost every VH thread you participate in is snippy, rude, or confrontational.

False and tendentious.

What happened to you? I had some awful things happen to me in recent years, but I'm not a jackass because of it.

Absolutely nothing happened to me. I just do not like lies and falsifications of the truth.

I wrote enough, any reader can make his own conclusions.

And most important, hopefully the OP has been helped (which is the role of the forum) to use his own judgement and find the best way to proceed for his captures.

[lordsmurf]

I wrote enough, any reader can make his own conclusions.

Indeed.

[Gary34]

Lollo must be working with tapes that are in really good shape. I haven't had a tape that didn't have vertical jitter or dropped frames when there was no frame TBC in the workflow. When my frame TBC is in the workflow I don't have any of that. I would not really want to unplug my S-video cable on my TBC then watch a tape to see if there are signal problems then if there are recapture with a TBC. I figure it's easier on the S-video ports to just leave the cables plugged in rather than unplugging them and plugging them back in.

[The 14th Doctor]

Lollo must be working with tapes that are in really good shape. I haven't had a tape that didn't have vertical jitter or dropped frames when there was no frame TBC in the workflow. When my frame TBC is in the workflow I don't have any of that. I would not really want to unplug my S-video cable on my TBC then watch a tape to see if there are signal problems then if there are recapture with a TBC. I figure it's easier on the S-video ports to just leave the cables plugged in rather than unplugging them and plugging them back in.

Yeah I think he mostly deals with his own tapes.

For the external TBC I use I'm also use to how it doesn't clip the whites that much, I have my capture card's proc amp setup with brightness and contrast values that work with the TBC in the workflow, so without I have to readjust the proc amp all over again. I also can't really see any noticeable quality loss between it being used or not.

I use it for all my tapes too, mainly for safety. I'd be dealing with random tapes from random sources. Sometimes might need to buy another Ebay listing of the same tape if the one I previously bought was a bit defective (ie the first seller's tape I bought had lots of jitter with the VCR's line TBC enabled and the second seller's tape does not)

[Gary34]

My proc amp in my TBC 3000 is pretty strong and it helps quite a bit. I never use the card proc amp. There is no benefit to taking my TBC out of the workflow for me but good that it works for Lollo. I like the look of using the TBC proc amp better.