LG V281 DVD/VCR Combo USB Capture Card strange problem

[VHS-Digital-Buddy]

Hi folks,
As in the title, I have a LG V281 dvd/vcr combo, and I use a Roxio VHS-Dvd Capture device.

I use Virtualdub 1.10.4, and when I go video-preview (in capture mode) I get the dvd video logo, and I get nothing from the vcr. I recorded about 3 minutes of a tape and only got audio, so it does read the vcr, but display from the vcr is missing.

I tried all sorts on the remote, switching between dvd and vcr and nothing. It plays a tape fine on a tv.

Very strange.

Would appreciate any assistance.
Thanks in advance.

[VHS-Digital-Buddy]

Never mind. Figured it out. S-video which the combo has, and for which I have a cable, is only meant for the DVD, not the VCR.

Need to get a VCR with s-video now.

[lollo]

Need to get a VCR with s-video now.

And a different capture card

[VHS-Digital-Buddy]

I've got another one. A Nero Recode stick Analog to Digital Converter. That better ?

[rgr]

I've got another one. A Nero Recode stick Analog to Digital Converter. That better ?

Nero Recode plays in a league of its own

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/416658-Nero-Video-Grabber-vs-Hauppauge-WinTV-USBli...-August-VGB300

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/416658-Nero-Video-Grabber-vs-Hauppauge-WinTV-USBli...00#post2765023

Besides, VCR with SVideo doesn't solve all the problems.

[lollo]

I've got another one. A Nero Recode stick Analog to Digital Converter. That better ?

Same crap.

I understand searching the forum is too much work for you, but you did not even read your own thread!
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/420995-Overall-recommendations

[Sharc]

@OP: Make a test capture with your LG VCR using its composite output connected to the composite input of your ROXIO. Maybe upload a few seconds here and collect comments from users. Then you have a "reference" for yourself to learn what and how much your capture will improve when using future decent equipment etc. once you will have it.
(These days it may not be so easy to find a decent S-VHS player in good working condition, preferably with TBC.)

[Alwyn]

These days it may not be so easy to find a decent S-VHS player in good working condition, preferably with TBC.

I have a bog-standard composite VCR that produces an image that looks as good as any of my 3 JVC S-VHS machines, so condition matters these days.

[VHS-Digital-Buddy]

I've got another one. A Nero Recode stick Analog to Digital Converter. That better ?

Same crap.

I understand searching the forum is too much work for you, but you did not even read your own thread!
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/420995-Overall-recommendations

I'll get to it. Thanks for your comments, and everyone else, as well. Right now I'm in possession of what appears to be garbage.

[The_Doman]

As in the title, I have a LG V281 dvd/vcr combo, and I use a Roxio VHS-Dvd Capture device.

I've got another one. A Nero Recode stick Analog to Digital Converter. That better ?

You have the devices so just test/try it and compare?
Use Virtualdub/Amarec TV and a good, stable video signal—preferably a test pattern from a DVD player, media player, TV, or cable box, depending on what you have available.
This also makes it possible to test how the capture device behaves when you feed it a composite or S-Video signal if available.
I have a lot of different cheap, no-name USB capture sticks here (from thrift stores and similar places), and it is interesting to see how they behave with composite or S-Video signals, especially regarding aspects like comb filtering.
Of course capturing a (unstabilized) (S)VHS signal is a much more demanding task for the capture cards.

Need to get a VCR with s-video now.

As mentioned here already, finding a good S-VHS/TBC player today is not so easy anymore.

Good VCRs with auto tracking

Now with good working S-VHS machines getting more and more difficult/expensive to find/get it is often much more feasible and flexible to use the DVD pass-thru option with a good working regular VCR.

[VHS-Digital-Buddy]

Thank you.

[GAhere]

I've got another one. A Nero Recode stick Analog to Digital Converter. That better ?

Same crap.

I understand searching the forum is too much work for you, but you did not even read your own thread!
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/420995-Overall-recommendations

I'll get to it. Thanks for your comments, and everyone else, as well. Right now I'm in possession of what appears to be garbage.

No, not garbage if it works and gets you a capture that looks the same as the source material.

You have exactly zero to lose by trying what you have except for time it takes to make a few minutes worth of test captures of your source (VHS).

There is often zero need to use s-vhs video to get a decent capture when composite will get the job done. S-VHS video ports simply separates the luminance (brightness) from the chroma (color) analog video, this reduces some (very little) of the artifacts that happen when the two are combined.

It isn't the end of the world if you can't make use of the S-VHS ports.

By default, VHS (might as well state that all video tape) recordings the Luminance and chroma along with Hor/Vert timing signals are mixed together converted into a FM RF signal and recorded on the tape anyways (they are not recorded separately). Direct analog video is not recorded directly to the tape, the video tape simply does not have enough "bandwidth" capability to handle the direct analog video to tape method. Keep in mind, this is not a digital recording (0s and 1s) but a FM RF signal (same idea as a FM broadcast radio station) that is applied to the tape.

The playback of the tape requires demodulation then undoing all of the mixing of the signals and then applying it to the output jacks.

Granted a S-VHS deck may have a bit better quality signal separator and "comb filter" for filtering the luminance/chroma signals but that may not make a hill of beans difference on a standard VHS tape recording played back on a S-VHS deck as it cannot fix what is already present in the recording (mixing of Luminance/chroma) that happened at the time it was recorded.

This does fly in the face of a lot of folks on the forum, but that IS what happens inside a VHS VCR.

Try what you have, do a side by side comparision on the same TV/monitor, if you try using a PC and PC monitor for comparison it can skew your results into thinking there is an issue as PCs and PC monitors handle video drastically different from a TV. PC and PC monitors have far greater resultions and color depth and the color calibration will be considerably different from a old school 4:3 TV. Because PC and PC monitors have greater resolutions and handle video in a different way from analog many analog video defects in the original video source will show, that can't be helped nor reduced.

Try a few test captures and play the captures back on the same TV/monitor and compare results (might want to consider a standalone digital video file player rather than a computer for this). If the capture doe not look any worse than the tape playback then go ahead with the equipment you have.

One of the mistakes is playing the files back on a computer for comparison, that is a mistake as you will most likely be able to see every analog fault that was recorded on the tape and drive you crazy.

I don't do anything special, VHS composite into a composite analog recorder, play the tape and press record.. I playback all of the recordings using a standalone digital video player on to a 50" TV. Results so far are indistinguishable from the original VHS tape.

No matter what setup you decide to use, set the recording for the "best quality" setting for your capture device, this will record at the highest bit rate the device can do, bit rate is very important, higher bit rate means you have more digital samples of the analog signal which results in better quality captures.. The downside to that setting is it will create much larger files.

[Sharc]

^^^^ omg

[dellsam34]

This does fly in the face of a lot of folks on the forum, but that IS what happens inside a VHS VCR.

Some including myself do recommend S-VHS VCRs not just for the marginal quality improvement of the video signal transmission but for their ability to do time base correction, Better mechanism and video heads.

[Sharc]

A more detailed description of how video is recorded onto a tape by a VCR is found here, section "Video Recording".
https://everything.explained.today/VHS/

Luma and chroma are always separated on the tape by the "color under" principle. After upconverting for playback they get combined (added) by the VHS player only to build the "Composite" PAL or NTSC compliant signal. S-VHS players keep luma+sync and chroma separated at the S-Video connector.

[VHS-Digital-Buddy]

Appreciate all the responses. Thanks GAHere for that extensive reply. Some food for thought there.

[lordsmurf]

S-VHS video ports simply separates the luminance (brightness) from the chroma (color) analog video, this reduces some (very little) of the artifacts that happen when the two are combined.
... Luminance and chroma along with Hor/Vert timing signals are mixed together converted into a FM RF signal and recorded on the tape

This is how I know you have very limited knowledge on this topic.

- S-VHS is a tape format.
- s-video is "separated video", as it carries the signal on 2 separate wires for luma(~Y) and chroma(~PbPr)
- luma and chroma are never "separated" at the "port", because the signals are recorded separate on the consumer analog format (VHS,etc) source tape

Yeah, I'm not being nicey-wicey here. But you're giving wrong information, again, to a newbie who's trying to learn. Since it's clear you have limited knowledge on this topic, how about not answering these sorts of posts? You've been spreading misinformation for months now, and forum regulars (who actually know their stuff) are getting tired of respond to your poppycock.

Thanks GAHere for that extensive reply.

His reply was the equivalent of a toddler making mud pies with his own diaper mustard. Disregard his misinformation.

[dellsam34]

Luma and chroma are always separated on the tape by the "color under" principle.

They are not really separated, They are combined in a modulation scheme called quadrature amplitude modulation or QAM, However, what's on the tape is already on the tape, it has nothing to do with the VCR playing it back, Using a S-VHS machine prevents an additional merge of the Y and C in the composite stage, For this and other advantages that's why we suggest S-VHS VCRs, there is nothing wrong with using a composite VCR if the budget or knowledge does not allow it, I don't blame people for keeping things simple and within the budget, they just have to understand that there is a quality trade off.

[lordsmurf]

I don't blame people for keeping things simple and within the budget, they just have to understand that there is a quality trade off.

100% this.

[VHS-Digital-Buddy]

His reply was the equivalent of a toddler making mud pies with his own diaper mustard. Disregard his misinformation.

Nice to meet you lordsmurf.

[lordsmurf]

His reply was the equivalent of a toddler making mud pies with his own diaper mustard. Disregard his misinformation.

Nice to meet you lordsmurf.

Nice to meet you too.

I don't often have time to visit VH anymore, but I got a message about a few stupid posts being made here recently. It did not disappoint. Or rather, it did disappoint. Different decade, same BS, gets to be sad.

[lollo]

No, not garbage if it works and gets you a capture that looks the same as the source material.

The easycap cards and similar are garbage. Period. There is nothing to prove, and their capture cannot look as good as the source material.
There are many many comparisons here on videohelp forums, digitalfaq forums and doom9 forums.
But maybe you have new elements and have performed some new comparison on your side. Then show your facts to prove your non sense.

There is often zero need to use s-vhs video to get a decent capture when composite will get the job done.

The opposite.

S-VHS video ports simply separates the luminance (brightness) from the chroma (color) analog video, this reduces some (very little) of the artifacts that happen when the two are combined

The S-Video connector (not named S-VHS video port, you don't know what you are talking about) allows to vehicle the Y/C signal in the proper way, and is alway preferable to composite connector.

By default, VHS (might as well state that all video tape) recordings the Luminance and chroma...

Granted a S-VHS deck may have a bit better quality ....

Complete non sense, as explained by others, I won't comment any further.

This does fly in the face of a lot of folks on the forum, but that IS what happens inside a VHS VCR.

Complete bullshit, as explained by others, I won't comment any further.

The people you refer to have showed the quality of their captures and their approach. There is nothing to argue about.

But once more, you may have some different facts and experiments to show, then let us know…

I don't do anything special, VHS composite into a composite analog recorder, play the tape and press record.. I playback all of the recordings using a standalone digital video player on to a 50" TV. Results so far are indistinguishable from the original VHS tape.

You will be surprized on how good a VHS/S-VHS can look with the proper workflow.

No matter what setup you decide to use, set the recording for the "best quality" setting for your capture device, this will record at the highest bit rate the device can do, bit rate is very important, higher bit rate means you have more digital samples of the analog signal which results in better quality captures.. The downside to that setting is it will create much larger files.

You must be confused. There is no bitrate to consider. Even the easycap cards and similar can capture lossless. This is an indication that you do not what you are talking about.

You probably just used a crap VCR (which is your reference to compare the capture to) into a crap DVD-Recorder and think that this is the best you can get. False.

^^^^ omg

Yes, I have rarely seen a post full of misinformation like post #12

[Sharc]

Luma and chroma are always separated on the tape by the "color under" principle.

They are not really separated, They are combined in a modulation scheme called quadrature amplitude modulation or QAM, However, what's on the tape is already on the tape, it has nothing to do with the VCR playing it back,....

Not quite. Just to put that right: Luma (Y) + sync is FM (frequency modulated) and combined with the down converted ("heterodyned") QAM (quadrature amplitude modulated) chroma (U,V aka Pb, Pr). Hence the well known "color under" principle of VCRs. Luma and Chroma are therefore frequency wise separated. For playing that signal on a TV via composite, the QAM chroma signal has to be upconverted (heterodyned back) by the VCR to the standard color subcarrier frequency of PAL or NTSC (or SECAM) TVs respectively. And here is the problem. Luma and chroma now share - at least partially - the same frequency band in interleaved form which requires sophisticated filtering by the receiving device (capture card, TBC, DVD recorder in passthrough, TV player....) to separate the luma from the chroma. Usually this is done by basic "notch" filters and/or by more sophisticated so called (xD-) comb filters. If this filtering is not perfect (actually it is never perfect) we get the notorious dotcrawl and rainbow artefacts of Composite video.
S-video avoids this problem as the quadrature modulated chroma signal and the baseband luma+sync are output on separate wires (Y/C), therfore no separating filter are needed. Still, some users unfortunately spoil the benefit of S-video with crap cables which sort of "convert" the s-video to composite due to cable internal Y<->C crosstalk of improperly shielded cables.
Anyway, it's off topic, triggered by @GAhere's explanations of how "VHS VCR work" in his opinion.

[VHS-Digital-Buddy]

I did a capture and would like some advice, please.

Here's the link to the raw (Video001_raw.avi) and processed file (Video001_processed.avi).

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1__ASAGW6-VaMLB1wpuhhAtVCRPQfQX1A

Some details

Equipment:

PC:
Intel Core i7-7700 @ 3.60 GHz, 32 GB, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3050 — 6 GB, Windows 11 64-bit, SSD (1TB)

VCR: LG VCR V281 DVD VHS Combo
Capture Device: Roxio VHS to DVD (I also have a Nero Recode to try another capture)
Gold plated RCA connectors. No S-video.


Recorded with Virtual Dub 1:10.4
PAL
720x576
25 fps, YUY2
PCM, 48000 Hz, 16-bit, Stereo
Video compression: Lagarith Lossless Codec
Audio compression: None (PCM)

Processed with AviSynth+ , QTGMC using VirtualDub2

AVS script.

SetFilterMTMode("QTGMC", 2)
FFmpegSource2("Video001.avi", atrack=1)
ConvertToYv12(interlaced=true)
AssumeTFF()
TemporalDegrain2(degrainTR=1, degrainPlane=4, grainLevel=2)
QTGMC(Preset="Placebo", EdiThreads=2)
BilinearResize(720,576)
Prefetch(6)


I admit I'm not happy with the end result, being the processed version. Top and bottom both showing head switching noise.
My VCR was serviced about a week or two ago, and tapes look good when played on a tv. For their age etc. As soon as capture happens, then artifacts show their faces.

Budget is really tight so, I realise results won't be great with my current setup, unless I spend more money, but would appreciate advice on improving, whatever is shown here, as much as possible.

Thanks to all.

[Sharc]

Your raw .avi capture is crap. Little motivation in trying to "fix" it. Is Roxio really doing that badly?? Incredible.
How has this tape which you captured been produced? You say it looks ok when played from VCR directly to TV ..... If so (?), the culprit is the Roxio. I guess it deinterlaces on the fly and encodes to mpeg2 at a much too low bitrate causing these ugly blocking artifacts. Any DVD recorder would probably have done better.

Also, I suggest to upload short snippets (few seconds duration) of your files directly to this forum. Not everyone is motivated to download your X GB files from your drive.

[dellsam34]

My VCR was serviced about a week or two ago, and tapes look good when played on a tv. For their age etc. As soon as capture happens, then artifacts show their faces.

Not sure what you have serviced but that VCR is crap, Live with it or get another VCR with more stable picture. Yes probably your capture cards cannot stabilize the picture but mostly due to VCR lack of image stabilization such as TBC.

[Alwyn]

Good on you for getting this far.

Yes, that looks bad. The very first thing I'd do would be to play another, unrelated, tape. That will reveal if the footy tape itself is bad or your equipment ie VCR or digitiser is bad.

Also, try a capture with the Nero (probably be the same result though).

Other comments:

-I've read it's better to use "AVISource" to open plain old AVIs like this one, not FFMpegSource

-You'll almost certainly need a stabiliser; note the wobbly top, ragged sides and the image flashing.

-You can crop all the crud off the sides or blank it out, then resize into 4:3, either using the PAR/DAR/SAR method or exporting as 720x540 in MP4, all in VDub2.

-You don't need QTGMC to Placebo; "Faster" will do and that will cut down processing time.

-Your processed sample is very big; I didn't download it, but it looks like you might have saved it as "uncompressed" as opposed to LAGS or another lossless codec. Of course, you'd eventually save it as MP4.

-Apparently, VDub 1.9.11 is the best of the VDubs for capture. I and others use AmarecTV. I then use VDub 2 for opening the AVISynth scripts and export/saving.

-Your samples only need to be ~15 seconds long; you can do lossless cuts in VDub: just trim it down then set the video to "Direct Stream Copy" and do a "Save Video".

[lollo]

If so (?), the culprit is the Roxio. I guess it deinterlaces on the fly and encodes to mpeg2 at a much too low bitrate causing these ugly blocking artifacts.

It's a lossless interlaced capture.

I suspect that all the elements leading to low quality are there: bad tape, bad VCR, bad capture card, no time base correction.

To OP: also your avisynth script makes no sense, but before any restoration you need to have a nice capture.

[Alwyn]

your avisynth script makes no sense

Well, help him out, don't just throw stones.

[VHS-Digital-Buddy]

Not nice to know that the hardware I depend on, is not good enough. But that's how we learn, I suppose.

I will do another capture. This time it's an old film I bought on VHS (brand new).

I will create shorter clips.

As always, appreciate the input.