Problems Digitizing VHS Cassettes...

[lollo]

I wrote "mediocre card" not a crap useless device!

[cholla]

What about using a firewire card in your current computer?

[rgr]

I wrote "mediocre card" not a crap useless device!

How is the customer supposed to know that Nero Recode is crap? I’d rather have video captured using an ancient 2-head VCR and, say, a Hauppauge card than using a top S-VHS deck and Nero Recode. The former offers a chance for improvement.

[Kong]

Please... let's not start to argue about this.

I do know that FW is now an abandoned technology, and that either a FW card or an old computer are needed for this. I think this is my best solution, and it is the one I am most likely to pursue. I have a 2010 MacPro tower with FW800 onboard, and it just needs some attention. (I just need to get a MacOS-friendly video board in there. This way I can install Snow Leopard, which should have the appropriate version of iMovie. Or, I can just go to the Windows 10 install on it, and use a couple of programs there that I already have installed — but it has been so long, I forgot that password. Eventually, I’ll throw in some SSDs, install Linux, maybe Haiku or other experimental OS... oh but I digress into an entirely different subject.) Anyway, once I can either get into Win10 or install OS X 10.6, it will most likely be my go-to machine for this process.

Thanks folks for taking the time.

[Kong]

What about using a firewire card in your current computer?

That too could be a solution. But, this is motivation for me to get to this Mac tower that's been sitting here idle. If that process takes longer than I find tolerable, I can certainly look up some FW cards for my Win11 workstation. Or, I can purchase an old laptop with FW800 (I prefer Macs for this solution, and those 2008-2012 models are very affordable).

[lollo]

I wrote "mediocre card" not a crap useless device!

How is the customer supposed to know that Nero Recode is crap? I’d rather have video captured using an ancient 2-head VCR and, say, a Hauppauge card than using a top S-VHS deck and Nero Recode. The former offers a chance for improvement.

I agree (because the USB-Live 2 ). That's why I wrote "The user is out of the equation once is instructed on the right materials and procedures to use."

My point is, and will always be, to focus on the player at first, because is the most important device in the workflow. Not so difficult to understand.

[Alwyn]

What about using a firewire card in your current computer?

Agree. Get one of these, poke it into your Win11 machine and get to it.

[Kong]

What about using a firewire card in your current computer?

Agree. Get one of these, poke it into your Win11 machine and get to it.

Well, I need FW800, and while this would be the most straightforward plan, I want to get my MacPro tower going first.

[cholla]

I have never owned or used a MAC so consider that.
This is a firewire card that is supposed to be for Mac also:
card

[Kong]

I have never owned or used a MAC so consider that.
This is a firewire card that is supposed to be for Mac also:
card

It's fine and I thank you for taking the time.

My MacPro tower has FW800 onboard, so that is not the problem here. My “problem”, if you will, is all of the options LOL

1. DVD-recorder + device (e.g., a new Vidbox to replace the one I tossed; ~$100)

2. S-VHS player with TBC (≥$700)

3. My mini-DV camcorder as a pass-through ($0.00). Works with my 2010 MacPro tower, but that machine needs a few ops to get up and running (already started on this). This will be the most time-consuming, but least-expensive, option. And, while I am impatient, I am forcing myself to be patient to save the cash.

If this turns out to be taking too long, I’ll probably go with a FW800 card for the Win11 box next.

Thanks again all. Appreciate the education.

[cholla]

To expand on the #2 solution.
Have you checked to see if a newer standalone media player like this would work for you ?
https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/shield/shield-tv-pro/

I did not even get a link for this one.
It is on the way out there end but shows what is available.
Zidoo UHD8000

As far as a DVD recorder: They are still limited to this:720×480 pixels for NTSC (North America/Japan) and 720×576 pixels for PAL (Europe/Australia)
Many do upscale but that is a mathematical scaling with the electronics in the DVD player.
This may look "stretched" or distorted some other way when done.
I'm not sure what the outputs of one of these can do but if they can go USB to a PC or Mac.
There is various capture software for this.
I believe even VLC can do this. I have not tested this so I have no comment on the quality.

[Kong]

That nVidia device seems like overkill for what I’m looking for. I’m a simple man Besides, it’s $200.

My recordings are all SD anyway, so not sure how the DVD-recorder pass-through would not be an acceptable solution — unless the upscaling actually looks good without taking anything away from the original recording??

[cholla]

I understand & I did some searching.
It seems going from a media player to a computer involves the right HDMI capture card & something called a HDMI Splitter.
It requires an older HDMI Splitter to do this but only if there is copy protection.
Not likely on the SD sources you have.

It has been some time since I went VHS to a DVD.
I used two devices & neither had a TBC.
For commercial VHS I went through a GREX.
I do not have any of those DVD still.
They would just be the 720×480 DVD.
I still have a DVD made from a VHS recorded with an OLD RCA camcorder.
The kind that used full size VHS tapes.
I do not remember them being too good of quality .
I will take a look & see if they have any video worth posting.
If they do then the GREX was not used.
The devices were a combo Magnavox ZV450MW8 to a Magnavox DVD/DVR H2160MW9.
The VHS tape was recorded in 1994 at Cheyenne Mountain Zoo.
I removed the audio because it was mostly background noise of people talking.
I left it in .vob format.

[Alwyn]

I need FW800

You don't need FW800 for DV. FW400 small plug (4pin) at camcorder, FW400 small or big (6 pin) plug at PC.

The only reason FW800 cabling would be needed is as bridge connection (400>800>TB) between your camcorder and a Thunderbolt port on a computer.

[Kong]

I need FW800

You don't need FW800 for DV. FW400 small plug (4pin) at camcorder, FW400 small or big (6 pin) plug at PC.

The only reason FW800 cabling would be needed is as bridge connection (400>800>TB) between your camcorder and a Thunderbolt port on a computer.

The Canon Vixia HV30 is a FW800 device. I've always used it for any sort of digital video capture, including VHS cassettes (I used to record those to mini-DV cassette, but love the idea of a simple pass-through.. makes so much more sense).

[Alwyn]

The Canon Vixia HV30 is a FW800 device.

No it's not. Cable requirement from the manual:

Use the optional CV-150F (4 pin-4 pin) or CV-250F (4 pin-6 pin) DV cable.

Those are not FW800 cables.

My HV20 runs fine on the 4 to 6 cable.

[Alwyn]

If you mean the Canon HV30, it can do a fine job of digitization, via its DV passthrough mode.

On bad tapes, it doesn't, IMO.

The HV has no stabilising properties at all; it simply passes-through all the bad details that are on the tape. It might keep the AV in sync, but it certainly doesn't improve any defects in the image. Check waves at the top of the frame.

The stabiliser used here is a Panasonic EH-57. Both of these were captured with Scenalyzer.


[Attachment 93213 - Click to enlarge]

[cholla]

In doing some research.
The brand & even model of the DVD recorder used for pass-through is important.
Meaning the ones without TBC.
I assume all the models with TBC are at least adequate.
The Panasonic EH-57 used by Alwyn that does not have strictly a TBC is a good example.

I found that the Magnavox devices I have can not be used for pass-through.At least not for filtering in any way.

[Alwyn]

The Panasonic EH-57 used by Alwyn that does not have strictly a TBC is a good example.

No DVD recorders have TBCs. What the Panasonics have is the Diga stabilisation system. This is what gives the "TBC" effect. The Eh-57 performs exactly the same as the ES-15; in fact every Diga machine I have (ES-15, 35, EH57, EZ-48) all do the same thing. And some others (Pioneer, Sony) also have a stabilising system.

My point was that even though the HV30 does passthrough, all it does is convert analogue video to DV (like the ADVC 100/110); no stabilising. As we all know, one should have some sort of stabilisation in the capture chain unless the tapes are in good condition and you see no waviness and get next to no dropped/inserted frames.

[cholla]

No DVD recorders have TBCs.

I had not checked this. Then only VCRs & maybe combo devices have TBCs.

I know the Panasonic models that have the Diga stabilisation system are recommended many times.
It might even be illegal for a company to manufacture a DVD recorder with TBC. (I have not verified this either).
How does the EH57 (others also) deal with Macrovision ?

I've had good service with most of the Panasonic devices I have or have had in the past.
I'm now using a Panasonic BD player I bought less than a year ago.
I still have a Panasonic DVD optical drive rebadged as Hammer Storage.

[VWestlife]

No DVD recorders have TBCs.

Sony's standalone "DVDirect" recorders definitely do, such as the VRD-MC5. It gives you rock-solid results, even from poor-quality VHS EP recordings.

[Kong]

So.... Using my VCR + HV30 through to my computer (iMovie, hypothetically), will NOT guarantee me no dropped frames? I hope I’m misunderstanding, because that would seem make moot a lot of this thread.

The waviness at the top of the screen I just took to be an artifact of the VHS medium, and therefore was unavoidable (some of my tapes have that, and some do not). This can be prevented??

My original question was how to prevent the 1-second frozen frame thing from happening, and several solutions were recommended, including using a DVD recorder or a digital camcorder as a pass-through.

[rgr]

My point was that even though the HV30 does passthrough, all it does is convert analogue video to DV (like the ADVC 100/110); no stabilising. As we all know, one should have some sort of stabilisation in the capture chain unless the tapes are in good condition and you see no waviness and get next to no dropped/inserted frames.

Most D8 cameras have stabilization aka TBC.

[lollo]

So.... Using my VCR + HV30 through to my computer (iMovie, hypothetically), will NOT guarantee me no dropped frames? I hope I’m misunderstanding, because that would seem make moot a lot of this thread.

It won't. The DV approach does not play the functionality of a TBC, if it is missing in the workflow. It is somehow less prone to a/v asynch, but that's all.
If the signal in your tape is unstable only an external TBC (in general not a DVD-Recoder in passthrough mode) can provide a more stable signal to the capture card/device. If frames are missing in the source, for instance, it will help in providing a continuos stream of frames with a benefit for the capture device. However, what is missing is missing, and is lost.

The waviness at the top of the screen I just took to be an artifact of the VHS medium, and therefore was unavoidable (some of my tapes have that, and some do not). This can be prevented??

What you call waviness can be fixed/mitigate by the TBC inside the player (VCR or Camera) or by a DVD-Recoder in passthrough mode (see Alwin example)

My original question was how to prevent the 1-second frozen frame thing from happening, and several solutions were recommended, including using a DVD recorder or a digital camcorder as a pass-through.

Back to first question. If a break is inside the media nothing can reconstruct it. The internal TBC makes the picture nicer, the extrenal TBC allows a solid stream to capture.

Finally, the recommended workflow is alway the same: a high-end S-VHS VCR or Camera with TBC, one of the suggested capture card. A DVD-Recorder can help for defects that the internal TBC of the player is not able to fix. For damaged tapes/signals, only an external TBC allows a good capture.

[Kong]

So.... Using my VCR + HV30 through to my computer (iMovie, hypothetically), will NOT guarantee me no dropped frames? I hope I’m misunderstanding, because that would seem make moot a lot of this thread.

It won't. The DV approach does not play the functionality of a TBC, if it is missing in the workflow. It is somehow less prone to a/v asynch, but that's all.
If the signal in your tape is unstable only an external TBC (in general not a DVD-Recoder in passthrough mode) can provide a more stable signal to the capture card/device. If frames are missing in the source, for instance, it will help in providing a continuos stream of frames with a benefit for the capture device. However, what is missing is missing, and is lost.

The waviness at the top of the screen I just took to be an artifact of the VHS medium, and therefore was unavoidable (some of my tapes have that, and some do not). This can be prevented??

What you call waviness can be fixed/mitigate by the TBC inside the player (VCR or Camera) or by a DVD-Recoder in passthrough mode (see Alwin example)

My original question was how to prevent the 1-second frozen frame thing from happening, and several solutions were recommended, including using a DVD recorder or a digital camcorder as a pass-through.

Back to first question. If a break is inside the media nothing can reconstruct it. The internal TBC makes the picture nicer, the extrenal TBC allows a solid stream to capture.

Finally, the recommended workflow is alway the same: a high-end S-VHS VCR or Camera with TBC, one of the suggested capture card. A DVD-Recorder can help for defects that the internal TBC of the player is not able to fix. For damaged tapes/signals, only an external TBC allows a good capture.

Okay, thank you. Ugh... My intended workflow needs some rethinking.

So.. a TBC device needs to be in the chain, which might look like this? VCR (my regular VCR, since I cannot afford one with TBC) + TBC device + DV / miniDV camcorder + computer with FW + capture software. Is this correct?

I was under the impression that the digital components (camcorder or DVD recorder) would provide the TBC functionality. I misunderstood. Ugh.

[cholla]

The waviness at the top of the screen I just took to be an artifact of the VHS medium, and therefore was unavoidable (some of my tapes have that, and some do not). This can be prevented??

Post a short clip of one of the problem videos as is.
In a video format like .mp4 or.avi .So members posting can see the problem.

You are going to need to do some experimenting with what you have .
Some of the simple solutions may work well enough to suit you.
Like doing a pass through with just the DVD recorder you have.
Or fixing your Mac tower & trying just your camera for the pass through.
See what results those give you.
Just a quick crop with AviDemux:


Like I found out that the Magnavox devices I have do not filter at all. So it would be useless to do a pass through with them.

If what you have is a line at the top[ like the video I posted has at the bottom.
Then you could just crop it off. The one in my video doesn't really bother me.
I believe the flickering it has was likely cause by an automatic light adjustment the camcorder had on.
If I had a device with a TBC or even a DVD recorder like the Panasonics .Either might take this out or improve it.

Just a quick crop with AviDemux:
Compare to video post#43

[Kong]

Post a short clip of one of the problem videos as is.
In a video format like .mp4 or.avi .So members posting can see the problem.

Sure thing, and thanks.

Done!

[Alwyn]

The waviness at the top of the screen I just took to be an artifact of the VHS medium, and therefore was unavoidable (some of my tapes have that, and some do not). This can be prevented??

In almost all cases, yes. Check out this page on my site showing what a DVD recorder can do for you.

So.. a TBC device needs to be in the chain, which might look like this? VCR (my regular VCR, since I cannot afford one with TBC) + TBC device + DV / miniDV camcorder + computer with FW + capture software. Is this correct?

That is one way of doing it, yes. However, if you have analogue tapes, the general recommendation is, as Lollo mentioned in post #54, to use a USB digitiser as opposed to a camcorder. This is because you're capturing in better quality lossless AVI at around 55mb/sec as opposed to lossy DV, which is around 25mb/sec. You don't stick with those formats though, you do your editing/fixing-up and then export to MP4 which cuts the file size down drastically.

In my experience, a DVD recorder will smooth out/steady up the absolute worst video and produce perfectly smooth framing; I have never used a proper external TBC and cannot see why one would need to. They are also hellishly expensive and, by the read of it, becoming increasingly hit and miss, condition-wise.

[Alwyn]

Most D8 cameras have stabilization aka TBC.

Which, by the looks of it, is ineffective in stabilising during passthrough. Here's a TRV-330E, TBC On, on that same tape. The wiggles are obvious:


[Attachment 93226 - Click to enlarge]

[Alwyn]

Frame-skip video in post #57... is that a true dropped frame?!