VHS over HDMI capture workflow with sample clip

[robertzombie]

Hello forum,

I was wondering if you could take a look at my new VHS capture workflow and check that it's operating correctly? I've done captures before through a Panasonic ES15 and Diamond VC500. Recently however the prospect of capturing an HDMI stream piqued my interest, so I purchased a DMR-EZ48V (which has HDMI output) and a StarTech USB3HDCAP with HDMI input to see what the workflow would be like. I always enjoyed capturing through my ES15 for the locked output it provides, but the multiple A/D - D/A conversions always seemed less than ideal.

Set-up is as follows:

• JVC HM-DR10000 D-VHS machine in Edit mode
• Panasonic DMR-EZ48V (in: s-video / out: HDMI 576i)
• Amazon Basics HDMI Splitter to remove hdcp (ASIN B0BSMLC1NX)
• StarTech USB3HDCAP on Windows 10
• Capturing lossless in AmaRecTV

I've made a sample clip, I think it looks okay. It's standard definition and interlaced, no cropping as far as I can tell.

The settings in AmaRecTV leave me with a couple of questions... I've attached some screen grabs of the capture device properties. The signal status reads "50 FPS (25 FPS)" is that to be expected? My file is 25 FPS interlaced. Also, "Receiver Property > HDMI Bandwidth" was set to 75% by default. I used that for my initial transfer, but I'm wondering if it should be set to "100%"?

Your thoughts and input would be greatly appreciated

[robertzombie]

Also, "Receiver Property > HDMI Bandwidth" was set to 75% by default. I used that for my initial transfer, but I'm wondering if it should be set to "100%"?

Ah. My initial file at "75% bandwidth" has a video bitrate of 55 Mb/s, at 100% it goes up to 90 Mb/s!

[dellsam34]

Once digitized into HDMI use the card's HDMI capture software, vdub and AmarecTV are designed for analog to digital capturing, though they can be used for such task but they have a lot of settings that you don't really need, Not sure about StarTech but Black Magic HDMI to PCIe or HDMI to USB3 use MediaExpress a very light weight app that just grabs the source video with no complicated settings or alterations, Aja and Magewell has their own software as well.

[rgr]

The only weakness I see is AmarecTV, which drops frames, unlike Vdub. I've also heard that the new DMR models don't have a good "TBC" like the old DMR-EH. But that could be a plus, as the JVC seems to have a TBC.

[robertzombie]

Once digitized into HDMI use the card's HDMI capture software, vdub and AmarecTV are designed for analog to digital capturing, though they can be used for such task but they have a lot of settings that you don't really need, Not sure about StarTech but Black Magic HDMI to PCIe or HDMI to USB3 use MediaExpress a very light weight app that just grabs the source video with no complicated settings or alterations, Aja and Magewell has their own software as well.

Unfortunately Startech's bundled software compresses the video signal, but the device is DirectShow compatible hence the need for Amarec/VDub.

[robertzombie]

The only weakness I see is AmarecTV, which drops frames, unlike Vdub. I've also heard that the new DMR models don't have a good "TBC" like the old DMR-EH. But that could be a plus, as the JVC seems to have a TBC.

That's good to know about AmarecTV! I'm familiar with Vdub, so I'll try setting that up next.

The DMR-EZ48's TBC seems visually similar to my ES15 on my TV. It will play a wobbly tape without issue so I think it should be okay for my purposes.

I'll route the Startech through Vdub and make a new test capture. I've also got a colour test pattern generator so we can see how the setup behaves with that.

[Alwyn]

AmarecTV does not drop frames here.

Yes, the EZ48 (PAL, at least) has the same stabilising properties as the ES-15.

I'll be interested to see how you go with the EZ48 going to the HDMI Startech. The Startech would not accept the output, classing it as HDCP. Startech Support confirmed this. I have to run the HDMI from the EZ48 through a splitter. Quality-wise, the HDMI is great; as good as, if not better than, the "norm".

[robertzombie]

The Startech would not accept the output, classing it as HDCP. Startech Support confirmed this. I have to run the HDMI from the EZ48 through a splitter. Quality-wise, the HDMI is great; as good as, if not better than, the "norm".

Same here, a direct connection yielded an "HDCP" message in Amarec, but with the splitter installed I was able to get video over HDMI.

[ozymango]

Same here, a direct connection yielded an "HDCP" message in Amarec, but with the splitter installed I was able to get video over HDMI.

Hi, Robert. Your setup sounds pretty cool and I'm always interested in coming up with a bunch of different ways to do the same thing -- but I'm a bit confused about the reasons you want to go the HDMI capture route versus your earlier Diamond VC500 route, seems to me the chain of processes is simpler in the first method (pass-through to DVD recorder as frame sync, then captured into VC500) so maybe cleaner signal. Then convert to viewing format after that. With your HDMI workflow, is the intent to capture directly to viewing format (e.g. x264 or similiar) versus capturing lossless and then editing later? In my own experiences capturing VHS tapes, I must admit that I've tried all sorts of hardware and software encoders, and while I can maybe see some slight visual improvements using the long and complicated methods, even the quick and dirty methods using a $10 USB capture device ain't too shabby these days, and your HDMI test capture looks pretty darn good to me as-is.

[dellsam34]

Unfortunately Startech's bundled software compresses the video signal, but the device is DirectShow compatible hence the need for Amarec/VDub.

I would still be looking for a pro HDMI capture device with better and simpler ingest software, Sometimes those BM, Aja, Magewel and the likes can be had for less than what the Startech costs. BM also made a nice HDMI/SDI recorders in the late 2010's to early 2020's and now is selling for peanuts on the used market due to failing internal battery which you don't need for this purpose, in case you want to ditch the computer for capturing, They capture in uncompressed 10bit 4:2:2 interlaced.

[ozymango]

I would still be looking for a pro HDMI capture device with better and simpler ingest software, Sometimes those BM, Aja, Magewel and the likes can be had for less than what the Startech costs. BM also made a nice HDMI/SDI recorder in the late 2010's to early 2020's and now is selling for peanuts on the used market due to failing internal battery which you don't need for this purpose, in case you want to ditch the computer for capturing, They capture in uncompressed 10bit 4:2:2 interlaced.

The Hyperdeck Shuttle would be a cool option to play around with for video captures, but when they say uncompressed, they mean uncompressed -- if you wanna capture at full 1080P HD that thing will suck down 250mb/s, so a 1tb SSD will be full up at 75 minutes of video! Awesome if you really want great video captures, but might be a bit overkill for VHS.

[dellsam34]

That's what's recommended here for SD from analog video tapes, SDI/HDMI recorders are not any different in terms of file size than a USB capture device capturing into lossless SD, except maybe the 10bit or uncompressed vs. lossless compressed, The whole reason of capturing lossless is to do the post processing in less than real time for better quality, de-interlacing and encoding on the fly was the 90's thing and a lot of people are re-doing those captures or have redone them already like my self due to low quality.

[ozymango]

That's what's recommended here for SD from analog video tapes,

Well I'm a little confused here because it sounds as if the OP started with a more simple method, that was working (I think it was working) -- VHS player, passthrough Panasonic DMR-ESXX DVD recorder for frame stabilization, then into Diamond VC500 card for lossless capture (Vdub or Amarec). So assuming that works, that should give a pretty good capture, yes?

So going from that, to an HDMi workflow, where we then have to even put an HDMI splitter into the works to get past HDCP (and I don't get why there's some HDCP issue if we're capturing VHS tapes?), and then we need to upgrade the HDMI capture device to allow for uncompressed HDMI capture, and then capture really large files in yet another format (if we use the BM Shuttle, anyway), and then edit that back down to some playable format ... well for the heck of seeing if all this works, I'm all for that, but I don't see how this would make for a better end result than the first method. What am I missing here?

[dellsam34]

I was just addressing the second workflow he has involving HDMI, which could technically better than the analog capture card due to the fact that the DVD recorder in the HDMI workflow does not convert back to analog and stays digital all the way to HDMI out, which is the reason I believe the OP dropped this thread.

An HDMI splitter does absolutely nothing to the video stream, it just ignores the HDCP flag which is required by law for all DVD hardware manufacturers (at least here in the US), The HDMI recorder does not record in another format, it just records whatever signal comes out of the DVD recorder ADC processing unit assuming it works within the rec.601 standard, which is uncompressed YUV 4:2:2 equally produced by the Diamond VC500 but with one more digital to analog to digital conversion.

If I use a DVD recorder I would integrate the HDMI recorder and the splitter inside it and have the SSD slot oriented towards the front panel of the DVD recorder for easy disc swapping and do all the wiring inside and even find a 12V source for the recorder from the power supply of the DVD recorder.

[ozymango]

Makes sense, except I don't get why you need the splitter to get around the HDCP issue. Or perhaps this is akin to the old days of Macrovision, is the user trying to copy a Macrovision-protected tape and the DVD recorder passes that on via HDMI, so that has to be "stripped" by the splitter?

[dellsam34]

As I mentioned, the splitter "ignores" the HDCP flag, but we don't like to talk about its legality here because everyone knows its purpose, but it's totally legal for say capturing your home videos.

[ozymango]

I'd be annoyed as heck if HDCP was flagging my home videos as copy-protected. ;-P

[dellsam34]

It does, because only TVs have the capability to ignore copy protections of any kind, So as long as you are watching contents which what most people do you don't even know a protection exists (although some TVs do have problems with HDCP but it's rare), But when you feed that HDMI into a capture device Hollywood doesn't care what content it is, they think you're stealing so you can't record it, So to get our rights back we resorted to these Chinese gadgets.

[Alwyn]

I'd be annoyed as heck if HDCP was flagging my home videos as copy-protected. ;-P

Only some VCRs do it, the EZ48 being one. Other VCRs I have with HDMI-Out don't flag HDCP when playing home videos and don't need the splitter.

From my dealings with Startech support (as I mentioned above), only some digitisers respect HDCP (the USB3HDCAP being one); the cheaper converters don't.

[rgr]

AmarecTV does not drop frames here.

Drops, drops -- checked, confirmed.

I'd be annoyed as heck if HDCP was flagging my home videos as copy-protected. ;-P

Only some VCRs do it, the EZ48 being one. Other VCRs I have with HDMI-Out don't flag HDCP when playing home videos and don't need the splitter.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

DVD recorders. Probably all of them from Panasonic.

[Alwyn]

Drops, drops -- checked, confirmed.

Knock it off, RGR. I don't get drops here.

[ozymango]

Is there an advantage to using AmerecTV instead of Virtualdub for capturing? I see that AmerecTV has a free version and a paid version, or is it that they'd like you to pay something for it, but the shareware version works but with screen nags?

[robertzombie]

Same here, a direct connection yielded an "HDCP" message in Amarec, but with the splitter installed I was able to get video over HDMI.

Hi, Robert. Your setup sounds pretty cool and I'm always interested in coming up with a bunch of different ways to do the same thing -- but I'm a bit confused about the reasons you want to go the HDMI capture route versus your earlier Diamond VC500 route, seems to me the chain of processes is simpler in the first method (pass-through to DVD recorder as frame sync, then captured into VC500) so maybe cleaner signal. Then convert to viewing format after that. With your HDMI workflow, is the intent to capture directly to viewing format (e.g. x264 or similiar) versus capturing lossless and then editing later? In my own experiences capturing VHS tapes, I must admit that I've tried all sorts of hardware and software encoders, and while I can maybe see some slight visual improvements using the long and complicated methods, even the quick and dirty methods using a $10 USB capture device ain't too shabby these days, and your HDMI test capture looks pretty darn good to me as-is.

The Panasonics digitise the signal so the idea intention behind going the HDMI route is that the signal isn't converted back to analogue prior to being captured at the computer.

[robertzombie]

Is there an advantage to using AmerecTV instead of Virtualdub for capturing? I see that AmerecTV has a free version and a paid version, or is it that they'd like you to pay something for it, but the shareware version works but with screen nags?

AmarecTV was easier to set up than VDub, and I didn't get any reported dropped frames but I've found a thread on here where the poster demonstrated that ATV was in fact dropping frames, it just wasn't reporting them. I will have to test for myself.

[lollo]

People writing about AmarecTV dropping frames without reporting them are just not able to read its log file correctly.
AmarecTV does not drops frames silently nor by itself!

[ozymango]

The Panasonics digitise the signal so the idea intention behind going the HDMI route is that the signal isn't converted back to analogue prior to being captured at the computer.

Well, my Panasonic DMR-ES15 has an s-video input and s-video output, so I connect the s-video output (analog) from my JVC S-VHS VCR to the ES15, and then the S-video (analog) output from the ES15 to the s-video (analog) video input on my capture card (WinTV-HVR-1250 PCI, not a USB device), and so it's analog all the way through until I capture. Now it's certainly possible there's some signal degradation in the analog/analog transfer from the VHS deck to the ES15, but hopefully the analog output from the ES15 is pretty clean going into the HVR-1250, where it is only then converted to digital. For my VHS tape transfers, this works very well to stabilize the VHS output and gives a very watchable recording.

[jagabo]

my Panasonic DMR-ES15 has an s-video input and s-video output, so I connect the s-video output (analog) from my JVC S-VHS VCR to the ES15, and then the S-video (analog) output from the ES15 to the s-video (analog) video input on my capture card (WinTV-HVR-1250 PCI, not a USB device), and so it's analog all the way through until I capture.

No, it's not. The ES15 does all its work internally in digital format. So it first converts analog input to digital, does its filtering in digital format, then converts back to analog for the s-video output.

[robertzombie]

Here is a second sample clip, this time captured in Virtual Dub. As with AmarecTV, no reported frame drops. VDub logs more metadata than ATV, which might be useful.

I think it's looking pretty good.

https://files.videohelp.com/u/293968/Catvdubtest.avi

[Alwyn]

VDub logs more metadata than ATV

How can that be accessed?

[Sharc]

The second sample looks ~ok, a mix of interlaced 25i, TFF (background), partially PsF (animals overlay).
The first example of post#1 is somehow messy: it starts as PsF or deinterlaced (progressive), from fields 590 onwards it looks like 2:2:3:2:3 telecined with possibly broken or longer patterns (needs further analysis) ..... and ends with interlaced 25i. Best viewed by just doublerate deinterlacing it (50p), IMO (what a TV would normally do).