VideoReDo TVSuite & Professional - General Discussion Thread

[Bridgy]

You are best to create a custom profile first, that way you can set a custom bitrate to suite your files resolution, or do it using the intelligent recode option.

Anyway, bit hard for me to predict how to do it as i don't know what the original file is.

[Marayong]

I also posted to the reddit forum and Dan suggested a very similar method:

"In the output profile options set the aspect to 16x9, then set the Aspect Correction mode to "Auto box" and if your source is 4:3 then it will automatically add pillarboxes."

Everything else set to "same as source".

[cp2]

I also posted to the reddit forum and Dan suggested a very similar method:

"In the output profile options set the aspect to 16x9, then set the Aspect Correction mode to "Auto box" and if your source is 4:3 then it will automatically add pillarboxes."

Everything else set to "same as source".

I’ll have to try Dan’s suggestion! I currently use Cropping and Resizing” and use Pillar Box to Standard or change the crop manually. I’ve come across some channels where different episodes of the same series present differently to VRD, sometimes stretched 16:9, other times apparent 4:3. I usually do a quick output and look at the result before finalising things. I’ll be interested to see whether I can simplify things.

[Marayong]

Bridgy's answer was the same as the one you use .. Cropping and Resizing and use Pillar Box to Standard. I tried that and Dan's version and the two methods gave the same result. Files generated by each method were identical, so there are two ways of activating the pillar/letterboxing module in VRD. Actually 3 ways since you can also do it using the DVD creating feature.

[cp2]

Bridgy's answer was the same as the one you use .. Cropping and Resizing and use Pillar Box to Standard. I tried that and Dan's version and the two methods gave the same result. Files generated by each method were identical, so there are two ways of activating the pillar/letterboxing module in VRD. Actually 3 ways since you can also do it using the DVD creating feature.

Dan’s suggestion could be better if it produces a consistent outcome across despite the apparent two different inputs. At the moment I may have to process the file two different ways to ensure the a proper 4:3 display is ensured. (I have ended up with a picture that is more like a flagpole than a pillar box). I shall give it a go when the opportunity presents itself.

[Bridgy]

I never cropped anything with my old 4x3 files, i just used the pillarbox option shown in my video (i think) and then exported the file at 16x9 and "Same As Source"

I don't recall the intricate details after so many years without trying to replicate the process, but Dan's way should be fine.

As i mentioned, many of my files i managed to just crop the files (top and bottom) until they were 16x9 ratio, then exported them as you would at 16x9.

[Marayong]

Whilst it's not uncommon to have multiple ways to access a particular function in a GUI, it's far less common (and usually due to sloppy coding) to have multiple functions in the code to achieve the same effect .. that tends to be the domain of microbloat. I suspect each of the methods in the GUI call up the same function (or subroutine) in VRD. Since using the two methods produced identical files, that indicates there's just the one function in the code to do this rather than sloppy bloateware.

[Bridgy]

Whilst it's not uncommon to have multiple ways to access a particular function in a GUI, it's far less common (and usually due to sloppy coding) to have multiple functions in the code to achieve the same effect

I hope you are not suggesting that maybe Dan did a sloppy job with the coding.

I believe that there would only be 1 way to do this feature within VRD, but it makes common sense why there are 2 options.

1 method of doing what you want to do is via the "Save As" option where you can add bars etc when using a Video file to export to digital format, then there is another option to do it within the DVD export option, and this makes sense in every way, because when you are building a DVD export you cannot use the same method that is located inside a profile in the "Save As" option.

I am sure that Dan was much better at this than to create poor coding.

[Marayong]

Re sloppy programming, I'm suggesting the opposite, viz that there's only the one routine to add pillarboxes, but several ways to access it. Otherwise it would be sloppy bloatware. There are at least 3 ways to access this routine .. one via DVD authoring and two via "save as".

Give the filesize for the VRD installer, it definitely ain't bloatware.

[Bridgy]

I am not familiar with 2 options within "Save As" but then again i use VRD for editing/recoding digital video files recorded on a camera, and there was only 1 option open to me via the Profile that i would create, as per in that video i posted previously.

I did use the DVD creation tool way back maybe until 2015 (for those who were still wanting stuff on DVD) but all my DVD projects used 16x9 HD files from my camera, or from a clients camera, except for a few older 4x3 videos which i imported and exported as 16x9, but i don't recall the exact process, i thought it actually added the side bars when it recognized the Source file was 4x3.

I did a lot of Wedding DVD's back in those days, both filming weddings myself, and creating DVD's for clients from their own camera footage.

[Marayong]

Dan suggested a different way to yours to insert pillarboxes via the save as menu. I included his answer above.

[Bridgy]

Dan suggested a different way to yours to insert pillarboxes via the save as menu. I included his answer above.

Yeah that might be the case, but in my case i meant that i only know of 1 way to do it via the Save As option, and it was the logical way to do it given that i use an export profile, and there is a "Crop and Border" tool in the "Video" Tab.

These days for me it is a mute point as i don't touch or use any old video formats, others still do so it is a good feature for those, and for those who still work in the old DVD format.

[cp2]

I had the opportunity today to test a TV recording that i made today of a rather old programme. The file was 544x576 using MPEG-2. Mediainfo shows a 16:9 profile for the original file: the start point is but it switches to 4:3 for the actual programme. After my edit to reduce the output to the programme only, the entire contents is 4:3.
When I output the edited programme as MPEG-2 Mediainfo reports 4:3 but VLC plays it with the correct bars.
As my objective is to output a space-saving HEVC file at this point things get a bit tricky.
A straightforward conversion to HEVC from the VRD edit of the raw file produces a reported 16:9/ 544x576 but the picture is stretched. Changing the profile to 16:9 but using the suggested "auto box" option produced the same unsatisfactory result.
I have created a profile for this type of file where I set the Cropping and Resizing to -68 left and right (Standard to Pillar box produces the same number but as a profile choice -68 seems to "stick" better).
In my case the Auto Box option doesn't appear to help so I will keep using my existing workflow.

[Marayong]

Pillarboxing files with VRD appears to confuse mediainfo and indeed windows itself. The DVD rips that I had were 4x3 files, no matter how I got the file information .. all as one would expect. After I pillarboxed them with VRD both mediainfo and windows continued to report them as having the original 720x540 framesize, however mediainfo did report the video as 16x9 (but still 720x540, which is 4x3). Playing the videos showed the pillarboxes were present.

This means that when one pillarboxes a video from 4x3 to 16x9 with VRD you are merely adding a 16x9 envelope around the 4x3 video. Windows & mediainfo (and pretty much everything else I've tried) sees the details of the interior 4x3 video and not the envelope itself (which is 16x9), although mediainfo does detect there is a 16x9 envelope. Evidently the original 4x3 video is still present as the original 4x3 video inside the envelope. Fortunately video players detect the envelope and add in the pillarboxes.

When you converted the VRD pillarboxed file to HEVC you stripped away the 16x9 envelope, leaving the original 4x3 video which was then converted to HEVC, with stretching. Cropping & resizing evidently work a different way to pillarboxing by actually editing the frames, so one would get different results.

You can use ffmpeg to add pillarboxes using the command: "ffmpeg -i 1.mp4 -vf "pad=aspect=16/9=(ow-iw)/2" output.mp4"

This appears to add pillarboxes to each frame rather than just sticking the intact 4x3 video into a 16x9 envelope. So the above ffmpeg command should produce files that can be successfully converted to HEVC without stretching. The downside of that ffmpeg command is that it drastically slashes the bitrate. The file I tried had an original bitrate of just over 4000kbps. Running the above command reduced it to 836. There may be a variation of the above command that preserves the bitrate.

Ahhh, try: "ffmpeg -i 1.mp4 -vf "pad=aspect=16/9=(ow-iw)/2" -b:v 4000k output.mp4"

Substituting the bitrate of your original 4x3 video in place of the 4000 above (but leave the k there). Using ffmpeg takes about the same length of time compared to VRD's pillarboxing. My original 4x3 video had a bitrate of 4091kbps, the new file has one of 4096kbps. Close enough to be identical. Mediainfo (and windows) reports the new file as a genuine 16x9 video with a framesize of 966x544 (compared to the original 720x544). Playing the ffmpeg converted video, the quality appears to be the same as the original and the one pillarboxed by VRD.

My conclusion is that for pillarboxing a 4x3 video, ffmpeg is superior to VRD since it creates a true 16x9 video whilst VRD just ads an envelope around it while keeping the original 4x3 video intact inside. You just have to tweak the ffmpeg command line each time so it preserves the original bitrate.

[Marayong]

The funny symbol in the ffmpeg command should be a colon followed by x.

[cp2]

I’ve been thinking about how VRD has processed my 4:3 file that isn’t quite 4:3.
Although the tv station I used is awash with 4:3 profile shows it exists in an environment of 16:9 promos and adverts. Thanks to padding my file starts in a 16:9 area. MediaInfo therefore sees it as a 16:9 file: VRD apparently does the same despite my file after editing being pure 4:3. Consequently the 16:9 selection with Auto Box does not work as one might hope.
I have a fix that works using VRD only that gives me the desired outcome without using an additional program like ffmpeg so I will stick with it. The only thing that I think that I need to watch for is if the padding takes the file start into the 4:3 domain of the previous programme. This may require an adjustment to the approach. In any event playback on the output on VLC to check it is still a good idea!

[Alwyn]

IMO there is no need to pillarbox any 4:3 video these days. DVDs don't need it, any PC player doesn't need it, Youtube doesn't need it and on any 4:3 screen eg ipads it just makes the actual video smaller. And on phones in Portrait, it's even worse. Any half-decent TV doesn't need it and those that do probably have a display setting to accommodate a 4:3 frame.

[Marayong]

Alwyn, the fact that someone asked how to pillarbox 4:3 videos and others joined that conversation with their experiences and there are plenty of current forum posts elsewhere discussing the same would indicate you are very much wrong and there is indeed a need. Just because you don't need to do it does not mean that is true for everyone else!!!!!!!!

A hint for you - since 4x3 is such an old frame size many tv's actually have trouble playing 4x3 videos off a USB drive. Whilst they offer display ratio settings for input from DVD & VHS players, set-top boxes and even pcs, these settings are missing from many tvs for playing videos on drives plugged into the TV's USB port. Hence they need to be pillarboxed.

And why would I want to play 4x3 files on my tv? I have a DVD of a 1980s mega-award winning miniseries that is consistently rated one of the top dramas to have ever aired on UK tv. I can't find it on a streaming service and my wife would like to watch it and I'd like to rewatch it. Since the only DVD player I have is in the pc, I ripped the DVD's and have now pillarboxed them so they can be watched on the TV ... so definitely a need.

[Marayong]

Cp2 .. the issue here is that a video can have native properties or it can be in an envelope with different properties to the actual video. Mediainfo etc see what's inside the envelope whilst players see the envelope. Pillarboxing with VRD uses an envelope to trick players into adding pillarboxes. The ffmpeg command I found actually changes the video's native properties.

[cp2]

Cp2 .. the issue here is that a video can have native properties or it can be in an envelope with different properties to the actual video. Mediainfo etc see what's inside the envelope whilst players see the envelope. Pillarboxing with VRD uses an envelope to trick players into adding pillarboxes. The ffmpeg command I found actually changes the video's native properties.

Can't disagree with what you say but this is an occasion where I have decided to be pragmatic. My objective is to play back the file in its correct profile without having to add more processing steps or temporarily adjust the settings of the TV. So, far I have achieved that objective so "quick and dirty" is working for me. Should I come across an occasion where it doesn't work for me I will mumble "Marayong was right" and explore a more comprehensive solution based on your insights. Thanks.

[Alwyn]

Just because you don't need to do it does not mean that is true for everyone else!!!!!!!!

Well excuse me for living.

I did say "IMO"; maybe you missed that. And yes, I have plenty of 4:3 videos, and from DVDs, that I happily play on my TV. Occasionally a file displays stretched. I hit the button on my remote that makes it display properly.

[Marayong]

Cp2 .. whatever method works is fine. I was just digging into why you got the result you got when you pillarboxed the files in VRD. Since VRD is just enveloping the 4x3 video, I don't know why it had to do a full re-encode, but life is full of mysteries .. most are not worth trying to resolve.

[Bridgy]

And why would I want to play 4x3 files on my tv? I have a DVD of a 1980s mega-award winning miniseries that is consistently rated one of the top dramas to have ever aired on UK tv. I can't find it on a streaming service and my wife would like to watch it and I'd like to rewatch it. Since the only DVD player I have is in the pc, I ripped the DVD's and have now pillarboxed them so they can be watched on the TV ... so definitely a need.

Is that because you still have a 15 year old plasma tv that has no remote setting that will allow the video to play normally, as per what Alwyn posted above.

I have video files recorded on betacam cameras at channel 10 from back in the late 80's and early 90's (that is the format used back then) that i digitised and have them all recoded to HEVC in whatever their native resolution was, i put them on a USB stick and i play them on my 75" 4k Samsung TV and they still look half decent, and my TV playes them all in their native 4x3 ratio resolution, and automatically pillarboxes them, if i watch them on my laptop Media Player Classic plays them exactly the same, i never had to add anything to them.

Most of them are 720x576 PAL and i have some 720x480 NTSC files from American recordings.

[Marayong]

It's not that old .. and it's not a plasma.

The tv will pillarbox all sorts of 4x3 inputs, just not from a USB drive. I've searched online and the best I can find is that it is possibly a software bug. The last software release for the tv model did have at least one other bug which disabled the inbuilt tv speakers, which isn't a bother since we use an optically connected sound system (because we always have the sound system plugged in, which disables the internal speakers, the last update made that disabling permanent, even removing the optical audio cable, the software still thinks it is connected so it continues to disable the internal speakers).

Since there was also a USB drive plugged in when it last updated, that could be the source of the present problem, similar to the speaker bug, at least that's the only suggestion I could get from Samsung tv forums. Samsung only releases software updates for the last few models (of anything). For older models, if the last update had bugs (and they often do), you are stuck with them. Prior to the last update it did pillarbox 4x3 videos off a USB drive, but since I watch them so rarely I can't be sure that ability was nuked on the last update, but it's possible.

Anyway, the fix for the 4x3 usb bug is to pillarbox the files on the pc ... so a simple & easy and quick fix. And cheap.

[Bridgy]

So every 4x3 video (without adding bars) that you try to play on your tv via usb gets stretched in width, so a car looks very wide and flat.

I have seen so many people watching tv and the picture is stretched, yet the person watching had not even noticed, until i reset their tv to play content in it's native resolution so a 4x3 video plays with black bars to each side natively.

When i show them the picture after i set the tv correctly, most reckon they don't see and difference, so i always try to point out a car or a persons head as a reference to the stretching, and even then they don't seem to be too fussed.

Strange how some people can tolerate this, just as some people watch a tv show or whatever, and the audio and picture is out of sync, this for me is more painful than being kicked in the you know whats.

[Marayong]

Indeed, that is the case .. and I've also noticed people blindly watched stretched 4x3 (or flattened theatre) videos without realising they are in fact stretched. I seem to be particularly sensitive to such stretching. At least i notice it pretty quickly & it takes ages for others to see what I see. I suppose it just goes to show how flexible and adaptable human vision & image processing is that people’s brains can accommodate and somehow fix the stretching. Not that that's a unique observation .. that's been well known for a long time.

And yes, I know how to change the TV's settings for video frame size and have done so for different sources. I even once had to adjust it for a tape of family recordings on an old VHS tape (still got the player in a cupboard somewhere I think). Alas, those settings are disabled for USB drives, but nothing else. Most annoying ... but it's a solvable annoyance thankfully. Actually, thinking about it more I'm pretty certain it was the last tv firmware update that did it. We have a smaller tv, but the same model, downstairs and it does allow adjusting the frame size for non 16x9 videos on usb drives. It's never been online so it's still got the original from-the-shop firmware.

I letterboxed a few theatre framed movies using VRD that I had on the drive for the grandkids and they now display properly as well .. no longer squished. Not that the grandkids would have noticed.

[Bridgy]

I'm not sure what tv you have, but mine is a 1 year old Samsung 75" that we got as a warranty replacement for our previous 4 year old LG tv that blew some of the LED's in the panel which was too expensive to fix (the colors in the picture started turning blue) and both these tv's will force any video to play natively, but we have never connected any other device like a dvd player to play videos, we only do it via USB or watch content from netflix and the likes, and i also watch a lot of old stuff that i find in the Samsung Live channel and all of those old shows play normal as well.

I too am very sensitive to stretched video on a tv, i can detect it immediately, and i have had people tell me there is something wrong with me, until i grab the remote and change one of the display settings.

I think maybe yeas ago the remote settings may have been set to a certain setting that may have stretched the picture so it required changing the settings, but on the LG and Samsung we have never had to change anything.

[Marayong]

It's more than 1yo.

Samsung have a well established track record of only providing 4 years of software & firmware updates for their products, including TVs. if the last software update released for your device is buggy or the update goes awry, then you are stuck with it. Mind you, other electronics manufacturers have similar policies, so it's not as if Samsung is unique in the limited length of their support before pressuring you to buy a newer model. Then again Samsung also blocks access to their TV app store once the TV reaches a certain age, which means you end up with outdated smart tv apps that may or may not work any more. Since the TV is connected to a PC which does all the streaming & apping, that's not a bother for us.

Anyway, VRD came to the rescue.