Horizontal wiggle and de-framing when capturing. Malfunctioning card?

[Impeesa]

Hello there! Been searching the forum for a little while, but didn't find any problem exactly like mine. I'm trying to capture some Hi8 tapes from my childhood using a DigitNow! U170 capture card, and I've been experiencing an enormous amount of horizontal wiggle and de-framing, which didn't occur in playback, be it in the camera (HITACHI VM-E340E) or when connected to a TV.

My biggest fear is just that the capture card is deficient or just subpar. Could it be that I´m setting up something wrong? Ive tried with the propietary software that comes with the card, OBS and VirtualDub, and the result is always the same. How do I fix this?

Thanks for your time!

[Alwyn]

Blimey, that's got a wobble! ��

[phelissimo_]

How do I fix this?

A TBC is needed.

[Impeesa]

Blimey, that's got a wobble! ��

It does!

[Impeesa]

How do I fix this?

A TBC is needed.

That is a piece of hardware, right? Is it going to be always necesary when capturing form my camera? Or is it just this tape?

[Alwyn]

A Time Base Corrector. Start from $100 (Panasonic ES-10/15 DVD Recorders in Passthrough mode) to $$$$$ for dedicated TBCs. You can also get cameras with TBC functions.

It may be only that tape, but the general wisdom with analogue video is that some sort of stabilisation is needed "most of the time" during capture. If you have a lot of conversion to do, it would pay to get an ES-10 or 15; they do make a difference to jittery tapes.

It may also be a dodgy capture card/stick. That U170 doesn't get a glowing score on Amazon and your video looks good, apart from the obvious.

I see that although it's a Hi8 tape, the camera is only single-channel audio, which makes me think it's not a Hi8 camera? I'd try the capture using a Hi8 camera if you can get one. That might allow you to use S-Video, which is better than composite (yellow socket) video.

Analogue video is a conundrum!

[Impeesa]

A Time Base Corrector. Start from $100 (Panasonic ES-10/15 DVD Recorders in Passthrough mode) to $$$$$ for dedicated TBCs. You can also get cameras with TBC functions.

Hmmm. Found one second hand for about 50€. Might change back the usb card and invest a little more! Are there any special cables I'll need to buy or be aware?

Analogue video is a conundrum!

So it seems! But as all things analog, its a returning fade. Cant wait to see what can be done with it!

Thank you!

[Alwyn]

Are there any special cables I'll need to buy or be aware?

Others may have different views, but I've just got thickish video cables, nothing flash. You'll need an S-video cable if your camera has S-video Out (is that the 50 Euro thing, or is that the ES-10?). Others might chime in, but I also have my ES-15 connected to my capture stick with S-video. So my standard rig is VCR/Camera>ES-15>USB Capture Stick>Virtual Dub for capture with Win 10, all with S-video cables (and red+white audio, of course).

Might change back the usb card and invest a little more!

Anther contentious issue and I have my flak jacket on, but I have had a lot of success with the IO Data GV-USB2. I also have a Pinnacle 710-USB from Lord Smurf and the GV is very close in terms of quality, to my eye. The great part about the GV-USB2 is that it works flawlessly with Windows 10 and Virtual Dub; full histogram/Proc Amp (via Graphstudio-thanks Jagabo). The totally Japanese installation instructions are work-aroundable!

[lordsmurf]

A Time Base Corrector. Start from $100 (Panasonic ES-10/15 DVD Recorders in Passthrough mode) !

A Panasonic DVD recorder is not a TBC.
It has strong+crippled line TBC, and non-TBC frame sync.
It's not a TBC.
A true TBC(ish) required ES10/15+DVK. Then you approach an actual TBC.

You still get the drawbacks of the DVD recorder (aggresive NR, luma changes, posterization).

[jagabo]

The line-TBC in the ES10/15 will fix all that horizontal wiggle. But it may not work for all vertical sync issues.

[dellsam34]

Or, get a Hi8/D8 camcorder with line TBC and S-Video out (you will need one anyway since your tapes are Hi8 and the Hitachi is only V8) and a decent capture device so you don't have to deal with the DVD recorder effects or spending $1500 on an external TBC. That artifact is obviously the capture device's fault, If the camcorder viewfinder or TV doesn't show the defect that's a tell tale (most of the time) of a crappy capture device that was made to make a $5 profit not capture videos, I have a friend who deals with Chinese companies all the time, They see the rest of the world as evil, therefore it's okay to deceive them to get their money, Yes it's that bad.

[jagabo]

Yes, but it's usually a combination of a crappy capture device and a marginal tape/player. The line-TBC in an ES10 or ES15 will help all tapes and has few drawbacks if set up correctly.

[dellsam34]

I know, But if you can eliminate the problem from the source why not, A better camcorder is always favorable to an external line TBC, because a good camcorder can produce a clean HBI signal from its line TBC over a Y/C socket rather than trying to fix a low budget V8 noisy composite signal with external means.

My approach is always have the right player, the right capture card and then if problems arise you have a better chance at isolating them and know what extra hardware is needed, If you start with problematic equipment you are compounding issues and troubleshooting them can be a pain and could cost even more money in buying more gear that one is not sure whether it will fix the problem or not.

[anachronon]

There is one thing that I did not see mentioned. Perhaps I missed it. Or perhaps, it is irrelevant. But, could the "wiggle" problem come from the fact that a Hi8-recorded tape is being played in a standard Video-8 camera? Has anyone ever tested this? I know that playing an S-VHS tape in a standard VCR will result in black smearing and the occasional horizontal tear. But, I don't know if the same symptoms would appear with Hi8 and standard 8.

[jagabo]

I know, But if you can eliminate the problem from the source why not, A better camcorder is always favorable to an external line TBC, because a good camcorder can produce a clean HBI signal from its line TBC over a Y/C socket rather than trying to fix a low budget V8 noisy composite signal with external means.

My approach is always have the right player, the right capture card and then if problems arise you have a better chance at isolating them and know what extra hardware is needed, If you start with problematic equipment you are compounding issues and troubleshooting them can be a pain and could cost even more money in buying more gear that one is not sure whether it will fix the problem or not.

Yes, of course having good equipment from the start is the best way to go. The problem is finding a Hi8 camcorder in good working condition is getting hard and/or expensive. The OP may be able to get away with the equipment he has with an ES10 or ES15 passthrough.

I just looked up his capture device. It does appear to be an "easycrap" clone. So a better capture device is affordable, less then a DVD recorder.

[dellsam34]

There is one thing that I did not see mentioned. Perhaps I missed it. Or perhaps, it is irrelevant. But, could the "wiggle" problem come from the fact that a Hi8-recorded tape is being played in a standard Video-8 camera? Has anyone ever tested this? I know that playing an S-VHS tape in a standard VCR will result in black smearing and the occasional horizontal tear. But, I don't know if the same symptoms would appear with Hi8 and standard 8.

If you're sure you have Hi8 tapes you will have to get a Hi8 camcorder, Usually the effect will look like black steaks in the bright areas due to the luma in Hi8 has a higher band, But I'm not sure if it will cause the wiggle, though technically makes sense, if the V8 camcorders cannot demodulate the Y signal correctly it may cause problems on the extraction of the HBI and VBI signals from the tape which are necessary for lines and frames timing.

[oln]

Black streaks from demodulation issues due to e.g playing SVHS in a VHS deck can confuse the capture card or similar's detection of line starts yeah, though the example doesn't really look like the effect you get from that. You usually get streaks all over the image, especially in bright areas.

Some later video8 camcorders (at least some from Sony) could in fact playback Hi8 tapes in reduced quality similar to S-VHS quasi playback on some VHS decks. I don't think this Hitachi aone does though, so I'm guessing the tape from the example is recorded in video8 format. You can record video8 on tapes marked hi8 and digital8, and vice versa to some extent, so the marking doesn't really tell you what's on them. The difference was in the tape material, with the better versions having tape formulations that preserved the video data, especially for Hi8 and Digital8, better. It's pretty common to have used hi8 type tapes tapes for recording video8 as the format was around for a while.

[lordsmurf]

has few drawbacks if set up correctly.

Setup has nothing to do with it.

- posterization is inherent to the unit
- luma skew is a Panasonic issue dating back to the first Panasonic DVD recorder, values are always off up or down, or both, regardless of Black Level or other image settings, worse on PAL
- the NR is always on, and the "on/off" is more like a low/high setting, with both low and high being somewhat aggressive

This doesn't make it a bad unit, but it's not transparent, it's not a TBC.

I have always suggested it for anti-tearing, where the net output was better than the source. But a a general-use item, it does harm. Users will have to decide if they want compromised quality, or something better. And ES10/15 is not flawless, so tapes will simply refuse to cooperate, even with good VCR and good capture cards.

It is what it is.

[jagabo]

has few drawbacks if set up correctly.

Setup has nothing to do with it.

Setup does have something to do with it. I can't speak for the ES10 but with my ES15 I've found the following...

- posterization is inherent to the unit

If the input and output levels aren't set properly you get very little posterization. If set up incorrectly you get more posterization. And we're talking about noisy VHS tapes on a VHS deck with no noise reduction, posterization from a mild loss of precision won't be an issue with all that noise.

- luma skew is a Panasonic issue dating back to the first Panasonic DVD recorder, values are always off up or down, or both, regardless of Black Level or other image settings, worse on PAL

The levels (and colors) on his home made VHS tapes are likely way off already. Changing them a little more is of little consequence (as long as they aren't crushed at the top and bottom). He can adjust them with the capture devices proc amp while capturing or in post.

- the NR is always on, and the "on/off" is more like a low/high setting, with both low and high being somewhat aggressive

Whether it's off/on or low/high, at the off setting it doesn't cause significant problems with a noisy VHS tape/deck, you just lose a little of that massive amount of noise.

I have always suggested it for anti-tearing, where the net output was better than the source. But a a general-use item, it does harm.

The minor drawbacks of the DVD recorder are nothing compared the sync problems he has now.

Users will have to decide if they want compromised quality, or something better

Yes. $100 for an ES10/15 (plus the equipment he has now) or a few thousand $ for an S-VHS player and a full frame TBC and a better capture device. For most people that's an easy decision.

[dellsam34]

Yes, financial decisions are always oneself's decisions, but a Hi8 camcorder costs almost as low as an ES10/15 and a good capture card from back in the day can be had used for as low as $25, then go from here, For the external TBC I agree.