capturing analog video w/digital audio from laserdisc via Windows 7

[clashradio]

(I hope this issue isn’t beat to death. I did do some research before posting)

**Goal is to transfer laserdiscs using the optical output with Windows 7/64**

My old computer had XP. Which I had a pci board for analog video capture, and Creative SoundBlaster front tower access sound card for analog and digital audio capture. I was using Pinnacle Studio for my NLE, that allowed me to select which audio signal to capture. Pinnacle came with the pci board. I could capture video and audio simultaneously using the two separate devices (pci board and soundcard). The pci board also had Firewire input for digital camcorder capture.

Jump to 2012, I now have Windows 7 64 bit. I’m using Sony Vegas Pro 12 as my NLE. I have a Focusrite external soundcard (with optical & coaxial inputs). I was told that for analog video capture with my new computer it’s better to use an external video capture box vs a pci board. I’ve been using Pyro A/V Link via Firewire for my transfers, but I really want to take advantage of the digital audio track on the laserdiscs. The soundcard does have optical-in, but it seems to be geared for 5.1 audio, or multi-track audio. It doesn’t recognize two-track audio from LD’s or even from my mini-disc player, but does recognize multi-track signals from my buddie’s mixer. It’s something to do with the type of digital signal. I did buy a Monoprice toslink optical-to-coaxial rca converter box. So I can capture 2-track digital audio, but the audio ends up being noisey.
Since the Pyro box uses Firewire for output, the video/audio are locked together. I can’t use the Pyro for video and the Monoprice for digital audio simultaneously. So I’ve been doing something janky; capturing the digital audio on the old computer and importing into Vegas and syncing with the video track captured from the Pyro box. There has to be a better way. Sure, I could just use analog audio jacks on the Pyro along with the analog video, but I’m an anal bastard. Why have signal loss when I can keep the audio digital. The SoundBlaster isn’t compatible with Windows 7.

My main questions are:
1) why do they not make a video pci board and/or capture box with analog video and digital audio inputs that works with Windows 7 or higher.
2) Is there a way to capture simultaneously from two separate sources when using Firewire?

[Krispy Kritter]

What type of "analog" video input are you wanting? Hauppauge has a whole line of cards, internal and external, that should meet your needs: http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/prods.html

[usually_quiet]

(I hope this issue isn’t beat to death. I did do some research before posting)

**Goal is to transfer laserdiscs using the optical output with Windows 7/64**

My old computer had XP. Which I had a pci board for analog video capture, and Creative SoundBlaster front tower access sound card for analog and digital audio capture. I was using Pinnacle Studio for my NLE, that allowed me to select which audio signal to capture. Pinnacle came with the pci board. I could capture video and audio simultaneously using the two separate devices (pci board and soundcard). The pci board also had Firewire input for digital camcorder capture.

Jump to 2012, I now have Windows 7 64 bit. I’m using Sony Vegas Pro 12 as my NLE. I have a Focusrite external soundcard (with optical & coaxial inputs). I was told that for analog video capture with my new computer it’s better to use an external video capture box vs a pci board. I’ve been using Pyro A/V Link via Firewire for my transfers, but I really want to take advantage of the digital audio track on the laserdiscs. The soundcard does have optical-in, but it seems to be geared for 5.1 audio, or multi-track audio. It doesn’t recognize two-track audio from LD’s or even from my mini-disc player, but does recognize multi-track signals from my buddie’s mixer. It’s something to do with the type of digital signal. I did buy a Monoprice toslink optical-to-coaxial rca converter box. So I can capture 2-track digital audio, but the audio ends up being noisey.
Since the Pyro box uses Firewire for output, the video/audio are locked together. I can’t use the Pyro for video and the Monoprice for digital audio simultaneously. So I’ve been doing something janky; capturing the digital audio on the old computer and importing into Vegas and syncing with the video track captured from the Pyro box. There has to be a better way. Sure, I could just use analog audio jacks on the Pyro along with the analog video, but I’m an anal bastard. Why have signal loss when I can keep the audio digital. The SoundBlaster isn’t compatible with Windows 7.

My main questions are:
1) why do they not make a video pci board and/or capture box with analog video and digital audio inputs that works with Windows 7 or higher.
2) Is there a way to capture simultaneously from two separate sources when using Firewire?

1.) PCI and FireWire are legacy connections at this point. PCI-e or USB are preferred for most purposes now. Maybe it is not the ideal solution for you, but the Hauppauge HD-PVR (1212) is a USB 2.0 device that can capture composite video (as SD H.264) and either 5.1 channel or 2-channel AC3 audio delivered via optical digital audio (TOSLINK). It won't capture DTS or LPCM audio.

[clashradio]

What type of "analog" video input are you wanting? Hauppauge has a whole line of cards, internal and external, that should meet your needs: http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/prods.html

Well I'm not having an issue with the video portion, but for laserdisc transfers I've been using the composite output. I've read not to use s-video.

I did see a Colossus 2 pci board hd recorder. It did have an optical jack, and what looks like an a/v port meant for a break-out cable? Wonder if it allows for wav/pcm audio?

[clashradio]

(I hope this issue isn’t beat to death. I did do some research before posting)

**Goal is to transfer laserdiscs using the optical output with Windows 7/64**

My old computer had XP. Which I had a pci board for analog video capture, and Creative SoundBlaster front tower access sound card for analog and digital audio capture. I was using Pinnacle Studio for my NLE, that allowed me to select which audio signal to capture. Pinnacle came with the pci board. I could capture video and audio simultaneously using the two separate devices (pci board and soundcard). The pci board also had Firewire input for digital camcorder capture.

Jump to 2012, I now have Windows 7 64 bit. I’m using Sony Vegas Pro 12 as my NLE. I have a Focusrite external soundcard (with optical & coaxial inputs). I was told that for analog video capture with my new computer it’s better to use an external video capture box vs a pci board. I’ve been using Pyro A/V Link via Firewire for my transfers, but I really want to take advantage of the digital audio track on the laserdiscs. The soundcard does have optical-in, but it seems to be geared for 5.1 audio, or multi-track audio. It doesn’t recognize two-track audio from LD’s or even from my mini-disc player, but does recognize multi-track signals from my buddie’s mixer. It’s something to do with the type of digital signal. I did buy a Monoprice toslink optical-to-coaxial rca converter box. So I can capture 2-track digital audio, but the audio ends up being noisey.
Since the Pyro box uses Firewire for output, the video/audio are locked together. I can’t use the Pyro for video and the Monoprice for digital audio simultaneously. So I’ve been doing something janky; capturing the digital audio on the old computer and importing into Vegas and syncing with the video track captured from the Pyro box. There has to be a better way. Sure, I could just use analog audio jacks on the Pyro along with the analog video, but I’m an anal bastard. Why have signal loss when I can keep the audio digital. The SoundBlaster isn’t compatible with Windows 7.

My main questions are:
1) why do they not make a video pci board and/or capture box with analog video and digital audio inputs that works with Windows 7 or higher.
2) Is there a way to capture simultaneously from two separate sources when using Firewire?

1.) PCI and FireWire are legacy connections at this point. PCI-e or USB are preferred for most purposes now. Maybe it is not the ideal solution for you, but the Hauppauge HD-PVR (1212) is a USB 2.0 device that can capture composite video (as SD H.264) and either 5.1 channel or 2-channel AC3 audio delivered via optical digital audio (TOSLINK). It won't capture DTS or LPCM audio.

I would like to capture the Lpcm audio from the laserdisc, none of my LD's have dts. Bummer how the 1212 only captures at ac-3. To me that's like taking a wav file and cramming it down to mp3.

Should I go ahead and capture using my old XP computer, being how I can capture in uncompressed AVI, vs my newer computer is in DV (5:1 compression)?

[usually_quiet]

What type of "analog" video input are you wanting? Hauppauge has a whole line of cards, internal and external, that should meet your needs: http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/prods.html

Well I'm not having an issue with the video portion, but for laserdisc transfers I've been using the composite output. I've read not to use s-video.

I did see a Colossus 2 pci board hd recorder. It did have an optical jack, and what looks like an a/v port meant for a break-out cable? Wonder if it allows for wav/pcm audio?

For the Colossus, Colossus 2 and HD-PVR 2 models, PCM and analog stereo audio will be captured as 2-channel AAC. Only AC3 can be captured without re-encoding. There are two composite dongles available for the original Colossus and one for some HD-PVR 2 models, but I don't know if any of them work for the Colossus 2.

[usually_quiet]

1.) PCI and FireWire are legacy connections at this point. PCI-e or USB are preferred for most purposes now. Maybe it is not the ideal solution for you, but the Hauppauge HD-PVR (1212) is a USB 2.0 device that can capture composite video (as SD H.264) and either 5.1 channel or 2-channel AC3 audio delivered via optical digital audio (TOSLINK). It won't capture DTS or LPCM audio.

I would like to capture the Lpcm audio from the laserdisc, none of my LD's have dts. Bummer how the 1212 only captures at ac-3. To me that's like taking a wav file and cramming it down to mp3.

Should I go ahead and capture using my old XP computer, being how I can capture in uncompressed AVI, vs my newer computer is in DV (5:1 compression)?

Use your old XP computer if you need to capture LPCM audio and losslessly encoded video at the same time. There are modern capture devices capable of providing lossless captures with 2D comb filters for composite video, but your main problem is capturing LPCM audio. Every modern capture device I know of which accepts composite video and 2-channel LPCM audio via an optical audio port re-encodes them both to a more compressed format.

[clashradio]

1.) PCI and FireWire are legacy connections at this point. PCI-e or USB are preferred for most purposes now. Maybe it is not the ideal solution for you, but the Hauppauge HD-PVR (1212) is a USB 2.0 device that can capture composite video (as SD H.264) and either 5.1 channel or 2-channel AC3 audio delivered via optical digital audio (TOSLINK). It won't capture DTS or LPCM audio.

I would like to capture the Lpcm audio from the laserdisc, none of my LD's have dts. Bummer how the 1212 only captures at ac-3. To me that's like taking a wav file and cramming it down to mp3.

Should I go ahead and capture using my old XP computer, being how I can capture in uncompressed AVI, vs my newer computer is in DV (5:1 compression)?

Use your old XP computer if you need to capture LPCM audio and losslessly encoded video at the same time. There are modern capture devices capable of providing lossless captures with 2D comb filters for composite video, but your main problem is capturing LPCM audio. Every modern capture device I know of which accepts composite video and 2-channel LPCM audio via an optical audio port re-encodes them both to a more compressed format.

Thank you guys for your help. Looks like AAC is better than Mp3, but still a lossy format.

[jagabo]

Looks like AAC is better than Mp3

At the same bitrate AAC is typically better than MP3. But MP3 at a high bitrate may be better than AAC at a low bitrate. And a lot depends on the encoders used. Not all encoders are created equal.

[clashradio]

Looks like AAC is better than Mp3

At the same bitrate AAC is typically better than MP3. But MP3 at a high bitrate may be better than AAC at a low bitrate. And a lot depends on the encoders used. Not all encoders are created equal.

I'd be capturing at 16/44 as that's what the specs are for laserdisc pcm. Preferably WAV, so that's where I think I'm stuck using my old SoundBlaster card.

[clashradio]

[QUOTE= There are modern capture devices capable of providing lossless captures with 2D comb filters for composite video...[/QUOTE]

Do you know of any modern hd capture devises that have 3D comb filters? I was wondering if I could get away with not needing a processor/scaler

[usually_quiet]

There are modern capture devices capable of providing lossless captures with 2D comb filters for composite video...

Do you know of any modern hd capture devises that have 3D comb filters? I was wondering if I could get away with not needing a processor/scaler

No. None of the modern HD capture devices that I know of has a 3D comb filter to reduce dot-crawl noise when using their composite video connection.

[clashradio]

There are modern capture devices capable of providing lossless captures with 2D comb filters for composite video...

Do you know of any modern hd capture devises that have 3D comb filters? I was wondering if I could get away with not needing a processor/scaler

No. None of the modern HD capture devices that I know of has a 3D comb filter to reduce dot-crawl noise when using their composite video connection.

That's what I was afraid of. I've been looking for a top of the line capture devices; rather an external unit or pcie. Do you have any recommendations? I have a BlackMagic Intensity Shuttle usb3.0,. but it only seems to capture in 1080i when I select "sd to hd" and is real picky on the input signal. I can't seem to capture using the hdmi-in with it.

Since it looks like I need a processor, and any decent processor will have dvi or hdmi-out, I figured I could capture using the hdmi-in correct? I've been looking at the MOTU HD Express, Hauppauge Colossus 2, StarTech usb3.0 HD Capture, Roland a/v convertor VC-30HD.

When I capture using the Shuttle with no processor and using composite output, I get lots of noise (like the picture of the Snell & Wilcox using the s-video to tv below the 300 & 400 boxes). Must be my t.v has a decent comb filter as there is no or low noise using composite.

I know I said I'll be capturing vs actually real-time viewing my laserdiscs. I just wanted to show an example of the noise. I would like my captures to look like the picture with using composite.

[JVRaines]

Do you know of any modern hd capture devises that have 3D comb filters? I was wondering if I could get away with not needing a processor/scaler

Not HD, but the Osprey 260e PCIe card that I use has 3D comb filtering. You can usually find this model used for under $200.

[usually_quiet]

Do you know of any modern hd capture devises that have 3D comb filters? I was wondering if I could get away with not needing a processor/scaler

Not HD, but the Osprey 260e PCIe card that I use has 3D comb filtering. You can usually find this model used for under $200.

Yes. If clashradio wants 1080i H.264 video from his Laserdisc captures, he can capture in SD using a lossless codec and then re-encode to a higher resolution and convert to H.264 using software. Using an HD capture device to scale from SD to HD is not likely to produce a result of equivalent quality.

[clashradio]

[QUOTE= Yes. If clashradio wants 1080i H.264 video from his Laserdisc captures, he can capture in SD using a lossless codec and then re-encode to a higher resolution and convert to H.264 using software. Using an HD capture device to scale from SD to HD is not likely to produce a result of equivalent quality.[/QUOTE]

At this point I don't know how the best way to capture. I just figured there has to be a little bit better way than standard DV capture. I do know that using the Intensity Shuttle with no processor gives crappy results (because no 3D comb filter).

So I was thinking to get a scaler/processor with a nice 3d filter. They have hdmi outputs. So I was thinking I could capture in hd? But maybe you're on the something; capturing in SD with a lossless codec. The Shuttle does have that option. Still would need a 3d comb filter. Unless I use that 260 pcie card.....

[usually_quiet]

[QUOTE=clashradio;2502856]

At this point I don't know how the best way to capture. I just figured there has to be a little bit better way than standard DV capture. I do know that using the Intensity Shuttle with no processor gives crappy results (because no 3D comb filter).

So I was thinking to get a scaler/processor with a nice 3d filter. They have hdmi outputs. So I was thinking I could capture in hd? But maybe you're on the something; capturing in SD with a lossless codec. The Shuttle does have that option. Still would need a 3d comb filter. Unless I use that 260 pcie card.....

You keep coming back to a scaler-processor and HDMI. This is clearly what you really want to do, so go do it and let us know how it turns out.

[clashradio]

[QUOTE= You keep coming back to a scaler-processor and HDMI. This is clearly what you really want to do, so go do it and let us know how it turns out.[/QUOTE]

Well, I was hoping you guys already figured out the best way to capture? I don't mind spending the doe. But I've already purchased a few things that may or may not work (Intensity Shuttle, Entech CVSI-1, Lumagen HDQ). I'm not really happy with the Shuttle, and afraid to dive right into another capture device w/o feedback.

[SHS]

The old ATI HD550 did very good with 3Dcomb

[jagabo]

The old ATI TV Wonder USB HD 650 had a good 3d comb filter and otherwise great capture. But it had a fatal flaw: the automatic gain could not be turned off. So at many shot changes the brightness would pump.

I don't have a video handy that shows the pumping but here one of a couple Snell & Wilcox charts -- captured from a DVD player. It's so clean you would be tempted to think it was an s-video cap. But you can see composite rainbowing during the transition from one chart to the other (the 3d part of a 3d comb filter only works in still parts of the frame, for moving parts it resorts to 2d filtering).

[clashradio]

The old ATI TV Wonder USB HD 650 had a good 3d comb filter and otherwise great capture. But it had a fatal flaw: the automatic gain could not be turned off. So at many shot changes the brightness would pump.

I don't have a video handy that shows the pumping but here one of a couple Snell & Wilcox charts -- captured from a DVD player. It's so clean you would be tempted to think it was an s-video cap. But you can see composite rainbowing during the transition from one chart to the other (the 3d part of a 3d comb filter only works in still parts of the frame, for moving parts it resorts to 2d filtering).

Is that from the laserdisc Video Essentials? or the dvd of VE? That looks awesome...way better than my capture from the Shuttle.

[jagabo]

That was from a DVD I made from a test file someone uploaded here long ago.

[usually_quiet]

Well, I was hoping you guys already figured out the best way to capture? I don't mind spending the doe. But I've already purchased a few things that may or may not work (Intensity Shuttle, Entech CVSI-1, Lumagen HDQ). I'm not really happy with the Shuttle, and afraid to dive right into another capture device w/o feedback.

JVRaines already gave you a recommendation based on personal experience. The consumer SD capture devices with 3D comb filters that I know about are either long out of production, or the latest hardware revisions use new chips with 2D comb filters.

Most here would capture Laserdisc at standard definition, since Laserdisc is a standard definition format. Streaming the video or broadcasting it on an HDTV channel or needing to view the video on a device which doesn't handle interlaced video properly, would be good reasons to de-interlace, upscale, or both. Needing to add scenes from the video to an otherwise HD project would be another good reason to upscale. I wouldn't de-interlace or upscale Lasterdisc captures to HD resolution just to watch the video using a computer or a media player, or to author a DVD or Blu-ray from it.

[usually_quiet]

The old ATI HD550 did very good with 3Dcomb

Cards based on the Theatre 550 chip don't have drivers that are compatible with Windows 7.

[SHS]

The old ATI HD550 did very good with 3Dcomb

Cards based on the Theatre 550 chip don't have drivers that are compatible with Windows 7.

That may be True but it still good card even if had to used any older OS.

[clashradio]

Well, I was hoping you guys already figured out the best way to capture? I don't mind spending the doe. But I've already purchased a few things that may or may not work (Intensity Shuttle, Entech CVSI-1, Lumagen HDQ). I'm not really happy with the Shuttle, and afraid to dive right into another capture device w/o feedback.

JVRaines already gave you a recommendation based on personal experience. The consumer SD capture devices with 3D comb filters that I know about are either long out of production, or the latest hardware revisions use new chips with 2D comb filters.

Most here would capture Laserdisc at standard definition, since Laserdisc is a standard definition format. Streaming the video or broadcasting it on an HDTV channel or needing to view the video on a device which doesn't handle interlaced video properly, would be good reasons to de-interlace, upscale, or both. Needing to add scenes from the video to an otherwise HD project would be another good reason to upscale. I wouldn't de-interlace or upscale Lasterdisc captures to HD resolution just to watch the video using a computer or a media player, or to author a DVD or Blu-ray from it.

I know I won't magically get HD quality from a laserdisc even if capturing in HD. But I know with capturing via DV is limiting.

[jagabo]

Note that the time base on a typical VHS deck isn't good enough for a 3d comb filter to be useful. Here's the same test pattern as earlier, recorded from the DVD to VHS tape, then captured from the tape with the ATI 650:



Laserdisc should have better time base than that but it will not be rock steady like a DVD. So you'll probably still get some rainbowing.

[clashradio]

I guess my question is if I buy an expensive processor with 3d comb filtering, does the processor automatically upscale SD to HD? or is it just filtering?

[SHS]

Well then you could look in to getting a DVDO iScan VP50 Pro from what I read on AVSForum that they are very good and now are cheap on ebay or there always the Crystallio II Scaler this brand maybe be very hard to get hold of.

[jagabo]

Upscaling is just enlarging the frame. There are different ways of doing that, some work better than others. In general, you can keep sharp edges but get aliasing artifacts, or reduce aliasing artifacts but give up sharp edges. The problems are exacerbated with interlaced video. And, of course, every TV can upscale standard definition video, again some better than others.

There are some software algorithms that use advanced techniques that give sharp edges without much aliasing (they work especially well with cartoons) -- but you'll have to learn AviSynth. And your LD source is almost certainly telecined film. For the best results you want to inverse telecine back to film frames, then upscale. That will give much better results than directly upscaling interlaced frames.

Using a hardware upscaler is a mistake if you want the best quality. It's the fast easy solution for mediocre quality.