Capture solutions for Win 7/x64

[fuga]

I have an old Win XP PC with a Pinnacle 500 PCI card that I intend to use for VHS capture to .avi. The file will be transfered for editing on a Win 7/x64 PC.
I have verified that all parts work, and I can edit the transfered .avi file, but my concern is if it would be possible to find a capture solution supporting Win 7/x64 that is likely to provide at better capture quality than the one described above. My problem today is that the PCI 500 card is x16 and I only have one x1 PCI slot available in my Win 7 PC, so card does not fit.

I have searched for potential solutions superior to the one I have, but I find it hard to find anything that is likely to improve the capture result. Many threads recommend capturing uncompressed, like .avi rather than DV or MPEG so I hesitate on those options. I can go with either internal PCIe x1 or external USB/firewire supporting Win 7/x64 as possible options if it is likely to get improved capture quality. Input is S-Video.

Does anyone have any experience or recommendations on this?

[Cauptain]

I have an old Win XP PC with a Pinnacle 500 PCI card that I intend to use for VHS capture to .avi. The file will be transfered for editing on a Win 7/x64 PC.
I have verified that all parts work, and I can edit the transfered .avi file, but my concern is if it would be possible to find a capture solution supporting Win 7/x64 that is likely to provide at better capture quality than the one described above. My problem today is that the PCI 500 card is x16 and I only have one x1 PCI slot available in my Win 7 PC, so card does not fit.

I have searched for potential solutions superior to the one I have, but I find it hard to find anything that is likely to improve the capture result. Many threads recommend capturing uncompressed, like .avi rather than DV or MPEG so I hesitate on those options. I can go with either internal PCIe x1 or external USB/firewire supporting Win 7/x64 as possible options if it is likely to get improved capture quality. Input is S-Video.

Does anyone have any experience or recommendations on this?

Some clarification:

Your card is PCI, not PCI-e X16 or X8 or X1. PCI only.

Capture using lossless codec (UT VIDEO, HUFFYUV) will improved your recorders.

Avermedia C027 / M799 has S-video input , are X1 slot and full Virtualdub/AmarecTV compatible.




Claudio

[usually_quiet]

I have an old Win XP PC with a Pinnacle 500 PCI card that I intend to use for VHS capture to .avi. The file will be transfered for editing on a Win 7/x64 PC.
I have verified that all parts work, and I can edit the transfered .avi file, but my concern is if it would be possible to find a capture solution supporting Win 7/x64 that is likely to provide at better capture quality than the one described above. My problem today is that the PCI 500 card is x16 and I only have one x1 PCI slot available in my Win 7 PC, so card does not fit.

I have searched for potential solutions superior to the one I have, but I find it hard to find anything that is likely to improve the capture result. Many threads recommend capturing uncompressed, like .avi rather than DV or MPEG so I hesitate on those options. I can go with either internal PCIe x1 or external USB/firewire supporting Win 7/x64 as possible options if it is likely to get improved capture quality. Input is S-Video.

Does anyone have any experience or recommendations on this?

It is unlikely that any newer capture device suitable for Windows 7 will produce better results, especially if you are not capturing lossless AVI using a codec like Huffyuv or UT Video.

[Brad]

Avermedia C027 / M799 has S-video input , are X1 slot and full Virtualdub/AmarecTV compatible.

You and I are both fans of this card for HDMI capture up to 1080i, but for analog it sucks.

[Cauptain]

You and I are both fans of this card for HDMI capture up to 1080i, but for analog it sucks.

I agree

Even using for more than 5 years, I never recorded anything with S-video input.



Claudio

[PuzZLeR]

As for Pinnacle products, I will address that at the end. But let me get to your other points first.

I have an old Win XP PC with a Pinnacle 500 PCI card that I intend to use for VHS capture to .avi. The file will be transfered for editing on a Win 7/x64 PC.

Using both this way is not a bad idea. I, and several others here, have an XP box for capturing, and a Win7 unit for editing, processing, etc. Keep in mind, capturing is resource demanding and a real-time task, and processing can be CPU intensive. You don't want to do both on the same machine at the same time unless you don't mind doing one at a time. But your workflow would benefit when adjusting it to two machines if you have lots of VHS tapes and want to shorten your time to completion.

I have verified that all parts work, and I can edit the transfered .avi file, but my concern is if it would be possible to find a capture solution supporting Win 7/x64 that is likely to provide at better capture quality than the one described above.

The same capture device on XP will produce the same quality on a Win7 machine, assuming both O/Ses support it, and assuming everything else is equal (settings, etc).

Having said that, when it comes to VHS capture, nothing's really advanced in nearly a decade with devices that can capture VHS, and XP is the common denominator of compatibility here. Many of us, including me, stick to XP here since it actually, without headaches or complicated manual installations, supports all the recommended devices for VHS capture.

My problem today is that the PCI 500 card is x16 and I only have one x1 PCI slot available in my Win 7 PC, so card does not fit.

I have searched for potential solutions superior to the one I have, but I find it hard to find anything that is likely to improve the capture result.

Do you have a USB slot? And I'll get to what's superior or what's not, especially regarding Pinnacle. Sit tight. He He...

Many threads recommend capturing uncompressed, like .avi rather than DV or MPEG so I hesitate on those options. I can go with either internal PCIe x1 or external USB/firewire supporting Win 7/x64 as possible options if it is likely to get improved capture quality. Input is S-Video.

For highest quality possible, THE best format to capture in is lossless, like Cauptain mentioned, and two good formats are Lagarith and HuffYUV and there's less excuse for the higher file sizes of lossless with the available HDD space today, and especially if they're valuable memories.

Another advantage with lossless over DV/firewire (which isn't so bad) and ESPECIALLY over a more compressed and lossy format like MPEG-2 is flexibility - with lossless you can process over and over and over again without loss. Only the result of your filters will affect the video.

With MPEG-2 you have the nicer file size, but anything you filter it with - even a simple crop - will degrade it. This is a subtracted quality loss ON TOP of anything you do to it. Just by simple re-encoding of MPEG-2, even if you do nothing to it, you will still lose quality on every subsequent step.

DV is like this too, but not as bad as MPEG-2. If you want a middle solution (file size/quality/flexibility) this could be it. But I still say to go lossless.

Does anyone have any experience or recommendations on this?

And now I will address capture devices.

Stay away from anything Pinnacle/Dazzle, or whatever they changed to, and I do mean for VHS capture. EVIL! As I said before in other threads, they are so bad, you can blame a divorce on them.

The best devices for your slot are the ATI AIW cards, but likely will be problematic on anything more recent than XP, and only available from re-sellers today.

Or you can go USB 2.0 capture, which is more or less just as good with VHS capture.

The ATI 600 USB 2.0 is arguably the best. Again, only available from re-sellers today. Fully supported with XP, but will be complicated or problematic past Vista.

And if you want a good USB 2.0 device that you can purchase today, and will work on a modern O/S, and is comparable to the ATI USB 600, and would be FAR SUPERIOR to using anything Pinnacle/Dazzle for VHS capture, you can look into the ezcap.tv (from the site), the Hauppauge USB-Live2 or the StarTech SVID2USB2.

[PuzZLeR]

Another advantage with lossless over DV/firewire (which isn't so bad) and ESPECIALLY over a more compressed and lossy format like MPEG-2 is flexibility - with lossless you can process over and over and over again without loss. Only the result of your filters will affect the video.

This is true assuming you're in the same color space.

Just wanted to be clear on this important point, which I almost forgot to include.

[usually_quiet]

Stay away from anything Pinnacle/Dazzle, or whatever they changed to, and I do mean for VHS capture. EVIL! As I said before in other threads, they are so bad, you can blame a divorce on them.

Do you only mean that the OP should stay away from the later Pinnacle devices (particularly the USB models), or does this condemnation include the Pinnacle 500 PCI he already has? I thought their older PCI cards were not all that bad.

[PuzZLeR]

Stay away from anything Pinnacle/Dazzle, or whatever they changed to, and I do mean for VHS capture. EVIL! As I said before in other threads, they are so bad, you can blame a divorce on them.

Do you only mean that the OP should stay away from the later Pinnacle devices (particularly the USB models), or does this condemnation include the Pinnacle 500 PCI he already has? I thought their older PCI cards were not all that bad.

I pretty much tuned out from Pinnacle/Dazzle later in the 2000s. But that's when VHS capture devices in general never got better anyway. (As for Pinnacle's HD stuff, or whatnot, later on, that has nothing to do with VHS capture.) So, basing an opinion on them on products up till about 2005 is still a valid assumption on my part to say they absolutely suck for VHS capture, and I can't see how the 500 got any better.

Oh, don't start me now on Dazzle/Pinnacle products - several I've used...

Bad quality. Very grainy, blurry, and bad colors. You can stop here if you want.

Dropped frames and more dropped frames.

Out of sync A/V, and not the good kind which is linear and easy to fix. We're talking about video and audio going on auto-pilot running a race with each other, running at several inflection points, and both are at a tie in speed at a point where one is taking the lead over the other. In other words, both video and audio are bad streams, and rendered useless in the end.

Proprietary hardware/software, which works with nothing else. That would be Ok if it wasn't so buggy and flawed. And yes, it will hang/freeze/crash your system - many times.

Even the resulting videos have playback problems and decoding errors - even from those captures that ALMOST worked.

Support - non-existing. They would keep you in this loop when calling - long distance - stating, "All of our representatives are currently busy." This is ambiguous because you don't know if your call will be picked up ... or not. So you wait, and wait, and wait, still wondering, then you hang up (rather acrimoniously). They put more effort into discouraging support calls than minimizing/preventing them in the first place.

Read reviews too - it's not just lonesome me. The ones on the 500 are bad too.

Here's the total number of projects I've completed with the Dazzle/Pinnacle products: ZERO! The only reason I was still doing VHS captures many years later is due to the delays Dazzle/Pinnacle caused me.

So endeth my rant for today.

The only thing that worked with Dazzle/Pinnacle is when I asked them to remove me from their email lists as I wanted nothing more to do with them. This actually worked.

[fuga]

Thanks all for valuable advice and comments.
I will have a look at the ATI cards as an option if it is possible to get one or maybe the USB options mentioned. Is there any of these cards in particular that you would recommend over the Pinnacle 500?
Regarding the output format I have no experience at all using lossless types. Does this require any special kind of editing software or is it possible to edit this with Pinnacle 15 which is the software I curently use?

[usually_quiet]

Thanks all for valuable advice and comments.
I will have a look at the ATI cards as an option if it is possible to get one or maybe the USB options mentioned. Is there any of these cards in particular that you would recommend over the Pinnacle 500?
Regarding the output format I have no experience at all using lossless types. Does this require any special kind of editing software or is it possible to edit this with Pinnacle 15 which is the software I curently use?

Note that the ATI TV Wonder 600 USB is the only TV Wonder 600 version you should consider. The PCI and PCI-e versions have issues with their automatic gain control (AGC) that causes the picture to randomly brighten momentarily. Also the ATI TV Wonder 600 USB was only sold in N. America, plus the ATI TV Wonder 600 USB is long discontinued and harder to find than it used to be. It does accept both PAL and NTSC analog video, but the digital tuner is ATSC (and a not very good one IMO). The ezcap.tv (from their website), the Hauppauge USB-Live2 or the StarTech SVID2USB2 are still in production and much easier to find.

I don't use Pinnacle, so I don't know what lossless formats it will accept.

[PuzZLeR]

Thanks all for valuable advice and comments.
I will have a look at the ATI cards as an option if it is possible to get one or maybe the USB options mentioned. Is there any of these cards in particular that you would recommend over the Pinnacle 500?

This is subjective, and I haven't tried all the ATI-ware, but there's a card version of the ATI 600, and have seen good stuff from the AIW 7000 and AIW 9000 series cards.

I've personally settled in to the USB capture route in recent years since I've lost the appetite to gut my PCs for different cards, but lots of folks have things to say about the ATI cards if you search. Then you can decide. Some will claim problems like AGC, but at this point, I really can't remember which.

But a good USB device (such as those I've mentioned earlier - I actually have all of them) is good enough for VHS transfer - even on a PC that is nearly a decade old. I've seen no AGC issues out of either of them.

I would recommend lots over anything from Dazzle/Pinnacle based on my experience.

Regarding the output format I have no experience at all using lossless types. Does this require any special kind of editing software or is it possible to edit this with Pinnacle 15 which is the software I curently use?

I wonder if your Pinnacle hardware and/or software will work with anything else. Then again, bundled software that comes with any capture device is mostly garbage anyway.

I know for sure the USB devices I've mentioned work fluidly with VirtualDub for capture using lossless format HuffYUV, with XP. As for Windows 7, you have to manually install HuffYUV (easy to find in a search, and apply), and the ATI 600 USB is also an adventure on anything beyond Vista.

I can't speak for the Pinnacle software, but lossless is easy to work with on pretty much any consumer editor, and easy to work with in VirtualDub for simple cuts and joins.

Editing is the easy part IMO. I would primarily focus on capturing at the best possible quality first and foremost.

EDIT: Hey, just noticed usually_quiet also just posted. Didn't mean to be redundant.

[usually_quiet]

You weren't redundant.

The ATI/AMD TV Wonder HD 600 USB capture device is a very different animal from the PCI and PCI-e versions.

From https://www.linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/ATI/AMD_TV_Wonder_HD_600_USB

Components Used:
Xceive xc3028LCQ (tuner & analog demodulator)
LG DT3303 (digital demodulator)
Texas Instruments tvp5150 (video decoder)
Empiatech em2883 (USB bridge and analog audio)

Notice that there is no Theater 600 chip listed. The ATI/AMD TV Wonder HD 600 PCI and PCI-e use the Theatre 600 chip.

[PuzZLeR]

You weren't redundant.

The ATI/AMD TV Wonder HD 600 USB capture device is a very different animal from the PCI and PCI-e versions.

From https://www.linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/ATI/AMD_TV_Wonder_HD_600_USB

Components Used:
Xceive xc3028LCQ (tuner & analog demodulator)
LG DT3303 (digital demodulator)
Texas Instruments tvp5150 (video decoder)
Empiatech em2883 (USB bridge and analog audio)

Notice that there is no Theater 600 chip listed. The ATI/AMD TV Wonder HD 600 PCI and PCI-e use the Theatre 600 chip.

Yes, I too thought it was the same architecture, card and USB, version of the 600, until a little while ago.

But both have similar quality however. I've done such personal tests a little while ago, but since have changed my PCs around, and put away the 600 card somewhere in case I ever want to use it (and especially put away since they don't make it any more). At any rate, in terms of quality, I didn't see any advantage to either, so leave it to personal preference whether they want a card or a stick.

Just to note, as per the Empiatech chip, the ezcap.tv, and the StarTech SVID2USB2 also have it under the hood, which makes them similar to the ATI 600 USB (albiet slightly different model numbers). The Hauppauge is a different animal with the Conexant chip.

[usually_quiet]

You weren't redundant.

The ATI/AMD TV Wonder HD 600 USB capture device is a very different animal from the PCI and PCI-e versions.

From https://www.linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/ATI/AMD_TV_Wonder_HD_600_USB

Components Used:
Xceive xc3028LCQ (tuner & analog demodulator)
LG DT3303 (digital demodulator)
Texas Instruments tvp5150 (video decoder)
Empiatech em2883 (USB bridge and analog audio)

Notice that there is no Theater 600 chip listed. The ATI/AMD TV Wonder HD 600 PCI and PCI-e use the Theatre 600 chip.

Yes, I too thought it was the same architecture, card and USB, version of the 600, until a little while ago.

But both have similar quality however. I've done such personal tests a little while ago, but since have changed my PCs around, and put away the 600 card somewhere in case I ever want to use it (and especially put away since they don't make it any more). At any rate, in terms of quality, I didn't see any advantage to either, so leave it to personal preference whether they want a card or a stick.

Just to note, as per the Empiatech chip, the ezcap.tv, and the StarTech SVID2USB2 also have it under the hood, which makes them similar to the ATI 600 USB (albiet slightly different model numbers). The Hauppauge is a different animal with the Conexant chip.

The Conextant chip is video-related. The Empiatech chip has nothing to do with video. It's for USB and analog audio. I don't know if they have any other components in common.

[PuzZLeR]

The Conextant chip is video-related. The Empiatech chip has nothing to do with video. It's for USB and analog audio. I don't know if they have any other components in common.

That's what I see in your specs, but I'm skeptical about the source'es accuracy.

Both the ezcap.tv and the StarTech use the Empa model number in their ID, just like Hauppauge uses the "Cx" for Conexant.

Not sure if the Empa chip plays a more prominent video role with the ezcap.tv and StarTech, but both perform similarly to an ATI 600 USB, so there must be some common denominator somewhere, which I believe is with the Empa chip.

Just saying why I'm skeptical.

[Brad]

The Hauppauge USB-Live2 uses a single-chip solution that performs both the USB functions and video decoding.

The ATI 600 is an implementation of a reference design from EMPIA, i.e. they picked a bunch of parts to go with their own USB chip. If you search EM2883 on that Wiki, you'll get a list of all the devices they've torn down with that chip inside. The ATSC/NTSC models listed all use the same combo of chips, with the exception of a KWorld stick that uses a Samsung digital demod instead of the LG (irrelevant to us anyway). If your other devices specifically show up as 2883, it's likely they use the same video decoder as the ATI 600, but it's not because EMPIA made the video chip.

Otherwise, the video decoder could be anything. EMPIA does make single-chip solutions themselves as well, such as this one that sucks.

[fuga]

I decided to give the Hauppauge USB-Live2 a try and ordered it for comparision with the PCI 500 card. Just done som initial tests so far. Is there any cons with the compressed format from the USB-Live2 when it comes to post processing with noise reduction in Neat Video for instance, compared to the AVI file from the PCI capture?

And one additional question - I have an alternative old XP PC with an additional graphics card (no analog input). Would that potentially have any positive impact on the PCI capture compared to the PC I currently use with just the on board integrated graphic card? Just figuring if it is worth moving the PCI 500 card to that other PC.

[Brad]

Is there any cons with the compressed format from the USB-Live2 when it comes to post processing with noise reduction in Neat Video for instance, compared to the AVI file from the PCI capture?

Yes. But you haven't actually told us what compression scheme your Pinnacle card is using. AVI is a container that can hold everything from 1992 postage-stamp CD-ROM video to entirely uncompressed HD video.

To try lossless, use VirtualDub to capture instead of whatever application Hauppauge includes.

I have an alternative old XP PC with an additional graphics card (no analog input). Would that potentially have any positive impact on the PCI capture compared to the PC I currently use with just the on board integrated graphic card?

The graphics card has no effect on the analog-to-digital conversion done by the capture card.

[fuga]

In Pinnacle Capture i find the compression options "DV Video Encoder" and "PICVideo M-JPEG 3 DirectShow Compressor".
Would it be possible to add other compression methods to use with this card?

Regarding the lossless option, do you mean that I can use the Hauppauge USB-Live2 with VirtualDub to capture lossless (would be nice if it works since I use it on my Win 7 PC)?
So far, I have only used it with the Hauppauge Capture s/w that came with the device.

[usually_quiet]

Regarding the lossless option, do you mean that I can use the Hauppauge USB-Live2 with VirtualDub to capture lossless (would be nice if it works since I use it on my Win 7 PC)?
So far, I have only used it with the Hauppauge Capture s/w that came with the device.

The Hauppauge USB-Live 2 is reported to work with Virtualdub. It probably works with lots of other third-party capture software too.

[fuga]

Ok, that's great.
I have no experience of using Virtualdub, so can anyone provide some guidance on how to make the Hauppauge USB-Live2 work with it?

[fuga]

It appears that no one can confirm the possibility to do lossless capture with the USB-Live2. Is that so?

I recently got my hands on a JVC SR-S388E player with internal TBC and did som testing with this unit to compare with my older consumer VHS player. It does produce a much better picture with no artifacts and no audio sync problems, so that is fine. But, I get the feeling that the JVC SR-S388E gives a slightly more noisy result than the old VHS-player. Is it normal that the picture from the JVC (s-video) player get a bit noisier than the older (non s-video) player due to better resolution when I play ordinary VHS-C tapes? Would som kind of cleaning imrove the result?

I also notice that capturing with th USB-Live2 in .TS format reduce the noise quite significantly. Does this encoding include/do any noise filtering in general?

[usually_quiet]

It appears that no one can confirm the possibility to do lossless capture with the USB-Live2. Is that so?

I recently got my hands on a JVC SR-S388E player with internal TBC and did som testing with this unit to compare with my older consumer VHS player. It does produce a much better picture with no artifacts and no audio sync problems, so that is fine. But, I get the feeling that the JVC SR-S388E gives a slightly more noisy result than the old VHS-player. Is it normal that the picture from the JVC (s-video) player get a bit noisier than the older (non s-video) player due to better resolution when I play ordinary VHS-C tapes? Would som kind of cleaning imrove the result?

I also notice that capturing with th USB-Live2 in .TS format reduce the noise quite significantly. Does this encoding include/do any noise filtering in general?

The Hauppauge USB Live 2 can do lossless capture. If it couldn't, it would not have been recommended. However, WinTV doesn't do lossless capture. You need to be willing to experiment with third-party capture software and you have to install the lossless encoders that you want to use. Huffyuv and UT Video are often recommended.

Virtualdub includes a lot of extras. There are other programs than Virtualdub for lossless capture with fewer options. I have used MPC-HC and DScaler with an ATI TV Wonder 600 USB. One or both of them is likely work with the Hauppauge USB Live 2 as well. However, no free capture program is going to do everything for you.

Finding out how lossless capture works is a hands-on, trial-and-error, process, and you will have to do a lot of work on your own. There is a limit to the amount of hand-holding anyone here is going to be willing to do. Google is your friend. Here is an example of how useful a good search engine can be. I typed "lossless capture with Virtualdub" into Google and voila, the first result returned was: http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/video/capture-avi-virtualdub.htm

TS files are usually MPEG-2 or H.264, which are not lossless. S-Video does not increase resolution over composite. The main advantage that S-Video has over composite is that it provides luma and chroma as separate signals, which doesn't create dot crawl artifacts and produces a higher quality picture.

[PuzZLeR]

It appears that no one can confirm the possibility to do lossless capture with the USB-Live2. Is that so?

I've already confirmed that the USB-Live2 can do lossless capture with VirtualDub. (On XP, for sure.)

I have tested it fully for 4:2:2 with HuffYUV, but sure it can handle other formats. It works for NTSC (720x480, 29.97) but can't confirm for PAL just yet - but can test it if anyone's interested.

Also, speaking of the ATI 600 card from posts ago, I can find, install and re-test this also if someone has an important question. (I personally put it away as I've strictly stuck with USB capture in recent years, as mentioned. Cards are too much work for me at this point.) I edited my previous post because I really, honestly, don't remember which ATI cards had the AGC issues, and it was very hard to test this when I did.

Also worth noting about USB capture devices: The ATI 600 is a very different animal than the 650 or the 750. The 650 does indeed have AGC issues (but has a comb filter), and the 750 was just plain terrible.

I don't have any more Pinnacle/Dazzle wares or the 650/750. As some of you here know, I have a tendency to burn or destroy products I've hated very simply because, first, it's therapeutic, and secondly, I simply have no good conscience to resell something that was bad for me. I can't remember what I did with the 650 (which wasn't so bad), but I do remember for sure that the Dazzle stuff was melted, and I can report it smelled quite horrible.

I recently got my hands on a JVC SR-S388E player with internal TBC and did som testing with this unit to compare with my older consumer VHS player. It does produce a much better picture with no artifacts and no audio sync problems, so that is fine. But, I get the feeling that the JVC SR-S388E gives a slightly more noisy result than the old VHS-player. Is it normal that the picture from the JVC (s-video) player get a bit noisier than the older (non s-video) player due to better resolution when I play ordinary VHS-C tapes? Would som kind of cleaning imrove the result?

Be very careful - sometimes noise is detail, and sometimes it's just noise. A direct comparison with two instances of VirtualDub, and your eyes being scrutinizing, would be a good determinant here.

I also notice that capturing with th USB-Live2 in .TS format reduce the noise quite significantly. Does this encoding include/do any noise filtering in general?

This is a completely different format, so expect different results. U/Q covered it.