All I need is to see a video cutting/splitting/trimming/joining application which:
1. Will handle any popular codec/format as an input (probably, it must have built-in ffmpeg for this).
2. Has a frame- AND keyframe-accurate navigation in an opened video. I've noticed this is a big problem for many video tools. For example, many apps have problems navigating backwards by frame/keyframe.
VideoToVideo? Its development seems to be stopped (no updates in last 2 years).
Avidemux? No. It won't even open many formats.
VirtualDub? No. The codecs have to be built-in.
SolveigMM Video Splitter? It won't open some formats, eg. FLV4 with VP6F. It has a very user-friendly interface, but... problems with backwards navigation, many problems with output files...
XMedia Recode? No frame-level navigation. No way to join files.
Is there another app (free/commercial, it does not matter) that you can recommend?
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No single tool will ever support ALL formats.
Your best chance is to convert the video to an intermediate lossless format and then use the tools you refer to. -
What DB83, although I think it is fine if you use a high quality lossy editing format instead.
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Aviutl. But it's likely well above your abilities.
It can edit pretty much anything I throw at it including, but not limited to AVC, HEVC, VP9. It is an NLE, not a cut and paste smart rendering editor.
Or just us Virtualdub with the FFMpeg Input Driver.Last edited by racer-x; 30th Jun 2015 at 19:00.
Got my retirement plans all set. Looks like I only have to work another 5 years after I die........ -
Thank you for answering.
I did not say about ALL/ANY/EVERY possible format, I said "popular". Those supported by FFMPEG are enough.
First of all, this kind of action is good when you need a frame-accurate editing WITH REENCODING, not lossless. But I don't need a frame-accurate editing (keyframe-accurate cutting is enough). Second, this will delete info about keyframes of the original video! Third, what if I don't want to edit anything, I just want to navigate through a video and save a selected frame as an image? It is very time- and diskspace-consuming to reencode, say, 2-hours-long video just to navigate with a frame-level accuracy!
1. Will VideoRedo open MKV (if it cannot open FLV) with VP6F?
2. This app has no portable version and this is too bad for me. I hate installing anything to the OS level. There is absolutely no reason for a video editor not to have a portable version.
1. No portable version, as far as I can see.
2. Will it navigate with frame AND keyframe accuracy through the original video (when I want to save this frame as an image)?
3. No keyframe-level lossless cutting, right?
Seems like FFMPEG Input Driver is not developed anymore (last update in Jan 2012)?
Is it possible to have a portable version of VirtualDub using portable FFMPEG binaries? I don't want to install any codecs in the OS, really. -
You can download portable versions of aviutl extra pack here: https://www.videohelp.com/software/AviUtl/old-versions#download (7z files ). But not latest extra pack 1.11.
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There's an update/fork of the original project. http://sourceforge.net/projects/virtualdubffmpeginputplugin/
(If you return Baldrick could you update the FFMpeg Input Driver link on the VirtualDub page?)
I was going to suggest it when I first saw this thread as it covers all your criteria, except I assumed you were wanting to edit without re-encoding. It probably defeats the purpose if you need to open the video in another program to do the actual editing. If you are re-encoding, it'll do what you want, but then there's no need to care where the keyframes are......
Third, what if I don't want to edit anything, I just want to navigate through a video and save a selected frame as an image? It is very time- and diskspace-consuming to reencode, say, 2-hours-long video just to navigate with a frame-level accuracy!
It's pretty accurate for MKV containing h264 but I'm not sure about other types of video or containers. I can't say I've tested it much. -
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Thanks! Yes, I'm gonna test this with portable VirtualDub! I tested old version of the plugin yesterday, and I saw some strange bugs navigating by keyframes (it gives the message "Error reading source frame [number]: Error while seeking file: [filename]" - the input frame was grey/empty after the first try to navigate to it, but OK when I returned to it from its adjacent frame; no way to copy the input frame to clipboard). And by the way, VirtualDub with this plugin does not cover all my criteria because it cannot save the edited video in its original container, only as AVI, right? I would prefer MKV, really!
What surprises me is why MKVToolnix has no preview for the selected video? It has an option to extract selected parts of the file, but why do I need to use another app just to see the video??!! I'd be happy if MKVToolnix could give a preview option, at least with navigation by keyframes!Last edited by MidnightUser; 1st Jul 2015 at 22:48.
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I kind of remember the old FFMpeg Input Driver working fine, but when I upgraded VirtualDub to the latest version it stopped playing nice, which led me to finding the new FFmpeg Input Driver, so it might be a VirtualDub/FFmpeg Input Driver compatibility issue..... or I'm remembering wrong.....
The external encoder feature under VD's Options menu will let you encode with any commandline encoder and mux the audio and video into a container of your choice (if you have a commandline muxer), and naturally it can be used with a commandline encoder capable of writing directly to an MKV such as x264. Setting it up to work properly mightn't be easy until you're familiar with it, although I think there's a thread somewhere (VirtualDub forum?) dedicated to people sharing their external encoder configurations. I've only played around with it myself.
Not that any of it really matters much unless you're happy to re-encode because the FFmpeg Input Driver would be decoding the video anyway.
It's not really designed as an editing program. It just happens to have splitting options. That's why I use MPC-HC for previewing and playing find the keyframe, and MKVToolnix for splitting. I don't do a lot of editing though, and most of the time if I'm editing I'm also be re-encoding, so I'd edit with MeGUI's AVS Cutter (which has a preview) and re-encode the edited version. You can't easily spot the keyframe that way, but when you're re-encoding you don't need to.Last edited by hello_hello; 2nd Jul 2015 at 01:06.
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As far as I know the FFmpeg Input Driver always decodes, so while you can probably use direct stream copy to save the video you'll be saving uncompressed video. It'd be like opening an Avisynth script with VirtualDub. You'd still be able to use direct stream copy but it'd output the uncompressed YUV being frameserved by Avisynth.
Mind you much of what I just wrote turned out to be complete crap when I opened a standard Xvid AVI with the FFmpeg Input Driver and tried to re-save it using direct stream copy for the video.
[Attachment 32359 - Click to enlarge]
I don't fully understand what's happening there but because the FFmpeg Input Driver decodes you can't use it for editing without re-encoding. There's an MKV input plugin and I don't think that decodes but I don't think it works all that well either.
Yep, a preview, or lack thereof, seems to be what distinguishes an editing program from a muxing program capable of creating, altering, spliting and joining files.
Have you tried this one? I haven't?
Free Video Editor -
Well, every app has some missing features which are critically important...
For example, XMedia Recode... Even if I accept the absence of frame-level preview, this app even cannot save multiple selected fragments in one output file! Saving each fragment in a separate file, and then finding another app just to join them? What a waste of time!
VideoToVideo was really the best regarding its features (except two strange bugs - a separate tool for a frame-level preview not combined with a splitter tool, and it cannot open audio files), but... what a pity! Its development has stopped! No updates since June 2013...I think it is time to add "NO MORE UPDATES?" label to it on this site, right?
Actually, I'm really sad to see such a situation. The year is 2015, but we still don't have any professional-quality, portable video joiner/splitter/muxer with user-friendly preview and without serious problems when opening/saving? Sad.Why is that? Would it be impossible to earn enough money for devs selling such a product? If so, this world is... what? I cannot choose appropriate words, they are all too rude...
Last edited by MidnightUser; 2nd Jul 2015 at 04:06.
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Got my retirement plans all set. Looks like I only have to work another 5 years after I die........
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Maybe I'm missing something in this conversation
I've been at this for years and I'm still an amateur
IIRC unless the file is raw uncompressed video with each and every frame saved in its entirety,
The only way to view it is decoding, and the only way to cut between key frames is re_encoding
Are There editors that will cut on the key frames and save segments key frame to key frame, IDK
But you sure can't do it between key frames those frames have to be recoded..There is no way around it..those in between frames consist only of change data..not complete frames, starting at an incomplete frame IT has to become a key frame. So the whole sequence gets recodedLast edited by theewizard; 2nd Jul 2015 at 10:54.
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Uncompressed video is certainly one way of creating an 'intraframe' file - i.e.with every frame a key frame - but not the only way.
There are a number of 'intermediate' formats - Grass Valley HQX or CineformHD for example - which also create all frames as keyframes. These are a lot smaller files than uncompressed, but can still retain a very high quality version of the original video.
Obviously, once you have created a file that is in a format like this - which is intended for editing - then all the parameters described by the OP are easy to achieve.
But many folk seem determined to try and achieve this by trying to edit highly compressed long GOP format files, which are really designed for capture or presentation - but not editing.
Understandably, they get frustrated when their chosen program is not able to 'guesstimate' accurately what they are trying to do with an unsuitable video file format
Horses for courses --- if you want to edit accurately - use an intraframe format. ( IMHO)
These are similar views to those expressed in posts#2 amd #3 of course .. so I'm in good companyLast edited by pippas; 2nd Jul 2015 at 11:30.
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thanks for that info
and of course once you complete your edits
the file will be re-encoded when processed to the final format for viewing/distribution -
You think they started developing this free app, and then stopped developing and started waiting for a single person who will pay them to support the progress? Even if I could do this, it is really not what I want. My question was - "Would it be impossible to earn enough money for developers by selling such product?" SELLING! (Or, ideally, free donations
whichever way to earn money except offering a bundleware installation invading my OS). I mean public sell, not someone who pays for everything - that will not be serious. Any serious app should have a large community, active discussions, and so on... But their official site contains absolutely no info on what's going on. No forum, no public discussion, no actual news, nothing. I did not try to contact because I see no sense in doing this, absolutely. If they cannot continue, they cannot - and this makes me sad because it means... what does it mean? Something that deserves a long description, but I don't want to express all my thoughts, really.
But I will try to express my thoughts about two user-friendly ways to earn money for the app in a modern world. This is related to any kind of software, not only media tools
1. Create such a good, professional-quality, feature-rich, unbeatable software that many millions users will download, and insert some ad into it, so every user will see it. I will agree to see some ads if the app has no annoying bugs, and helps me to not waste my time finding solutions all on my own. And devs could get money from advertisers...
2. Have some useful commercial online service, for example to reencode videos using a server-side power...
Selling and donations are boring
Maybe I am wrong, I don't know. But if I see a situation when I cannot find the app allowing to open at least any popular format and navigate by frame AND keyframe... what is going on in this world, really?
Of course not, there are many apps allowing you to peform a fast, lossless splitting extracting parts between keyframes without any reencoding. There is a very interesting process called Smart Rendering to even perform almost lossless cutting with minimal reencoding, but that's another, long story, maybe it's impossible to perform such process for every format, I don't know those deep technical details... But it would be super-mega-cool if this feature was implemented ideally, and I doubt if it's possible in practice. Links:
forum.videohelp.com/threads/362273-Need-help-on-smart-rendering-in-Solveigmm-Video-Splitter
forum.videohelp.com/threads/357721-Help-MP4-frame-accurate-editing-lossless-smart-encoding-fast-navigation
forum.videohelp.com/threads/358585-AVI-cutting-with-smart-rendering
By the way, I've noticed one interesting detail, is there anyone who can explain this? Backwards keyframe navigation:
MPC-HC - see a single "Ctrl+Right" option in "Navigate" menu. Actually, I'm not sure how does this app use keyframes for navigation, but what's the difference between Ctrl+RightArrow and Ctrl+LeftArrow shortcuts?
XMedia Recode - see a single button for a frame step in one direction in its navigation panel.
SolveigMM Video Splitter - when I try to navigate to previous keyframe, it often goes to the very beginning of a video.
Technically, what is the reason of such a big, strange problem?Last edited by MidnightUser; 5th Jul 2015 at 23:59.
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I've had a bit of a play with the Free Video Editor software I linked to earlier. It seems like it might be worth keeping as it'll edit/split using a preview and it worked quite well when editing/splitting the MKV containing h264 video I used for testing. Some observations.....
The Free Video Editor installer comes with OpenCandy offers. It tried to install additional software twice. The first I bypassed by unchecking the EULA agreement while the second required selecting the custom install option and unchecking the additional software. It's something to be wary of but the program can be installed without the additional software if you're careful.
It doesn't seem to do any re-encoding or smart cutting. It gives you the opportunity to change output format but I think it's only outputting the original video/audio to a different container. I haven't tested all the options yet.
When you first open an MKV it indexes the audio and video. The indexing is painfully slow. Fortunately there's an option to disable indexing. I haven't discovered any real advantage to letting it index yet. After it's finished, it places a "tag" at the beginning of each scene change. That then lets you jump from the beginning of one scene to the next using the tags but I'm not sure how useful that is for editing (although the program will split according to the tag locations). It might be more useful for editing if the video was encoded with an encoder (ie x264) that generally puts keyframes at the beginning of scenes, as then you could effectively navigate between keyframes, because......
It has no option to navigate between keyframes as such. Not that I could see. It doesn't show you where they are either. That's kind of odd, although maybe not a bad thing. I haven't decided yet, because.....
It doesn't necessarily split on keyframes, yet when you split each segment still needs to start with a keyframe. The upshot of which is, if you specify a split on a frame that's not a keyframe, the section before the split can end (exactly?) where you specify. I'm assuming as long as there's no frames required after the last one in order to decode the frames up to the split point. I tested that a few times by specifying a split point where I was confident there wouldn't a keyframe and the first section ended where I specified. The second section however, started at the next keyframe. That'd be fine if you want to split files permanently but if you tried to join the split sections together again there'd be a small section missing.
There's three save options after selecting sections of the video. The standard save option resaves the video as a single file with any selected parts removed. The "split by selections" option also saves the video with any selected parts removed but the remaining sections after editing are saved as individual files. The "split by tags" option splits the video where you've set a tag and saves the output as individual files. Nothing is removed, except possibly a section between a specified split point and the next keyframe.
The program isn't particularly complicated and seems to work well, but I'm still trying to come to terms with the way it splits. Most programs split on a keyframe, so nothing is lost when splitting, even if you can't split exactly where you'd like to. Free Video Editor doesn't seem to completely limit you to splitting on keyframes, but because a split section doesn't need to end on a keyframe yet needs to begin on one, it's something to be aware of if you're planning to join the split sections back together again, but if you're editing out sections and rejoining what remains as a single file then it's probably better than being limited to editing exactly on a keyframe. For example if you're editing out one section in the middle of a video, the end point of the first section you want to keep will probably be exactly where you specify (or very close), while the start point of the next section you're keeping will be the first keyframe following the point you've specified as it normally would be. Hopefully that makes sense......
Anyway, that's my mini review after playing with the program for a whole 15 minutes. I'll play around some more later.Last edited by hello_hello; 3rd Jul 2015 at 00:56.
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It's still true that you must cut on a keyframe unless you're re-encoding something, even if you're using a smart cutting program that can re-encode just the frames around the cut point. Ideally, you'd want to encode those frames using the same settings as the source video so there's no decoding issues and I'm not sure how easy that'd be to implement as an automatic process. The h264 video stream contains information telling the decoder how to decode the video and you probably can't just stick a group of frames in the middle and expect them to decode. I don't fully understand how that works, but it's why joining h264 video is problematic even when it looks like the encoder settings were the same and why x264 has a --stitchable option. Without it you can encode two videos with the exact same encoder settings and there's still no guarantee you'll be able to successfully join them.
One takes you backwards one frame at a time and the other takes you forward one frame at a time. For as long as I can remember after you navigate to a certain spot, then try to advance one frame, the first time you do so you don't advance. You need to tell MPC-HC to move forward one frame a second time before you start moving through the frames. At least with h264 video and MKVs. The same applies to navigating backwards so the first time you use Ctrl+LeftArrow it mightn't appear to have an effect. I don't know why it does that, but keep in mind backwards navigation one frame at a time tends to be slow anyway, especially at first, as chances are displaying a previous frame will involve decoding a whole GOP. The Shift and left/right arrows should navigate between keyframes quite well though, even if you keep changing direction, because that only requires the decoding of a single frame each time.
Some of the "oddness" when changing direction while stepping through single frames might also be related to how the video is being decoded. I kind of remember hardware decoding being a little more problematic in that respect than software decoding.
The Ctrl+Right shortcut you're referring to is no doubt an abbreviation for Ctrl+RightArrow. There's also a button on the navigation bar for moving forward one frame at a time.Last edited by hello_hello; 3rd Jul 2015 at 01:11.
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I visited their web page, and I want to ask: where is the info??? Where is the list of supported codecs? Is VP6 supported? I took a look at screenshots, and I don't understand - does it even have prev/next frame-accurate (if not keyframe) navigation???
The absence of a portable version is extremely annoying. How do I trust such a software? Where does it installs itself? To "Program Files" folder? So I will be forced to spend some time just to remove the software from my system if I don't like it?
And by the way, does it even contain an option to save a current frame as an image? This feature is critically important.
But still, why no "Ctrl+Left" option in Navigate menu, what exactly does it mean?Last edited by MidnightUser; 3rd Jul 2015 at 01:09.
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There appears not to be much.
I don't know.
avcodec and ffmpeg.exe are two of the files in the installation folder so maybe you could look at something like this as being the best case scenario: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libavcodec#Implemented_video_codecs
I don't know.
Yes.
I don't know.
You can tell it where to install.
I don't know.
Yes. It'll save "tagged" frames as jpegs.
It does put some files in "C:\Program Files\Common Files\DVDVideoSoft" including Free Studio, and a shortcut to open it.
http://www.dvdvideosoft.com/free-dvd-video-software.htm#.VZZNWVlH7n4
It's like a unified interface for all of their software, should you choose to install anything else. Pretty harmless. If the uninstaller doesn't remove it, you could just delete the folder.
I was wrong about the output formats. If you select an output format other than "original format" it does re-encode, although you have no control over the encoder settings. You pick an output container which then gives you a particular type of video and audio. For example choosing MKV gives you h.264 and AAC. It's a pity one of the output options isn't lossless, because that'd be about the only time I'd want to use it for encoding.
It's a conspiracy.Last edited by hello_hello; 3rd Jul 2015 at 04:18.
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Thank you.
There was a typo made by me: I meant "Play" menu, of course. It's in that place, not in "Navigate"
By the way, I just discovered that VideoToVideo cannot navigate to the next keyframe (forward), it just does not provide such button... Ah-ha-ha, LOL, I don't believe this... -
Machete uses codecs installed in OS which is absolutely unacceptable for me.
Avidemux has no portable version (why??? I remember it did have one in the past!). It could not open FLV with VP6F, will it open such file if I remux it to MKV? I doubt... -
What is becoming increasingly clear in this thread is that your requirements are so specific you may need to write your own solution.
As I'm sure you've probably realised by now, there's nothing out there at present that suits your exact requirements..... -
I would never call these requirements "so specific", they are all absolutely standard.
1. To open any popular format using built-in ffmpeg? Many apps do that.
2. To cut unwanted parts without reencoding and ensure that there will be no unacceptable errors in a saved output file? Many apps try to do that. Maybe I must admit that sometimes it is not possible, but in this case, I'd like to have a human-readable explanation of what is going on, and use another app to perform total reencoding...
3. To navigate to prev/next frame/keyframe? VirtualDub, Avidemux, SolveigMM Video Splitter try to do that.
4. To have a portable version? This requirement is the absolute standard in a modern world. Spending time on installation with a risk for getting unexpected "bonuses" - I hate that!
The problem is to combine these requirements together in one single tool, but that is just for convenienceDo I have the right to ask for convenience?
By the way, I must admit that requirement to have a video joiner was my error - no, I don't need that
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