No sound in winDV captures, DV-type 2

[brusno]

I have got problems with the audio when capturing to type 2 in winDV!
WinDV worked fine, but suddenly.....the audio was gone in my captures. And in VirtualDub too.
But Nero captured still with sound though.

I googled this particular problem, and found that others have had the same problem some years ago (DV is ancient stuff )
A workaround that was suggested then was to start the tape with the camcorder before starting capture in winDV.
And this worked for me too. Also this worked in VirtualDub I think.

But....does anyone know the reason for this problem? What was causing it?
Because I really liked that I could start the camera with winDV.

[DB83]

Have you tried a type-1 'capture' ?

[brusno]

Type-1 works fine in winDV. Strange enough. This problem seems to only affect type-2.

[DB83]

Maybe you have some new background programs that are eating up the extra resources needed for type-2.

[brusno]

No, I have been very aware of just that. With removal of unused programs, cleaning of registry and obsolete files, defrag. etc. And deactivation of unecessary programs starting up in msconfig.

One thing I can mention, is that the sound in failure type-2 captures is typically only 440 ms. Each time.
And the codec-ID of this is: dvsd.

[DB83]

Do you really mean sound loss or sound delay ?

[brusno]

The total audio time for the whole take, is only 440 ms. Even if video time is i.e. 5 minutes, 10 minutes etc.

[smrpix]

It's probably a mismatch between audio sample rates. (edit: as I see you are now noticing.) DV can record 4 channels @ 32khz or 2 channels @ 48. Once you have "taught" windv what you are using it ought to be ok. If your tape switches back and forth you will need to restart the capture at each break. 44.1 is very unusual though technically it is in the specs.

[DB83]

Ok. But that is not how you described it in post #5.

Well you have a solution - start tape manually. Or you can use type-1. It really does sound like a PC overhead issue.

[brusno]

I have now examined it further, and it seems to be a 2-divided problem.
First I uninstalled DVDflick, because I remembered that the program was asking me about dvsd, which is the codec-ID. And restarted the PC. Then the function was back! That I can use winDV to start the camera.......but......only for 12 bit audio (32kHz). It still don't work for 16 bit audio (48kHz).
Does anyone know if winDV has a 16 bit issue when autostarting the camera? But this will work with the workaround which I mentioned in an earlier post. To start the camera before starting capture in winDV.

[aedipuss]

a good reason to never re-use tapes - old dv with different audio can screw up capture at stops/pauses.

[aedipuss]

windv will stay with whatever type audio it encounters on the tape. if there's a millisecond of 32khtz before the 48khz then that's what you're stuck with. on mixed audio tapes you have to manually start playback and make sure the new audio and video is playing before starting to record.

[brusno]

It's probably a mismatch between audio sample rates. (edit: as I see you are now noticing.) DV can record 4 channels @ 32khz or 2 channels @ 48. Once you have "taught" windv what you are using it ought to be ok. If your tape switches back and forth you will need to restart the capture at each break. 44.1 is very unusual though technically it is in the specs.

No I don't mix them. I've been testing with clean 12 bit, and clean 16 bit. So it's only one audio format at the time.

a good reason to never re-use tapes - old dv with different audio can screw up capture at stops/pauses.

Yes I agree. I only use new miniDV tapes for new takes. Because I like to store the "master-tapes" in as good shape as possible.

windv will stay with whatever type audio it encounters on the tape. if there's a millisecond of 32khtz before the 48khz then that's what you're stuck with. on mixed audio tapes you have to manually start playback and make sure the new audio and video is playing before starting to record.

That's a good reason not to mix the audio formats. Which I'm glad I didn't do.

[smrpix]

In that case, a medianfo report on the files or a short sample might help.

[brusno]

In that case, a medianfo report on the files or a short sample might help.

Sample of a clip where the audio is 440 ms:

General
Format : AVI
Format/Info : Audio Video Interleave
Commercial name : DVCPRO
File size : 62.6 MiB
Duration : 18s 200ms
Overall bit rate mode : Constant
Overall bit rate : 28.8 Mbps
Recorded date : 2013-03-31 14:05:42.000
Video
ID : 0
Format : DV
Commercial name : DVCPRO
Codec ID : dvsd
Codec ID/Hint : Sony
Duration : 18s 200ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 24.4 Mbps
Encoded bit rate : 28.8 Mbps
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 576 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Standard : PAL
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Interlaced
Scan order : Bottom Field First
Compression mode : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 2.357
Time code of first frame : 00:00:42:08
Time code source : Subcode time code
Stream size : 62.5 MiB (100%)
Encoding settings : wb mode= / white balance= / fcm=auto focus
Audio
ID : 1
Format : PCM
Format settings, Endianness : Little
Format settings, Sign : Signed
Codec ID : 1
Duration : 440ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 1 024 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 32.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Stream size : 55.0 KiB (0%)
Alignment : Aligned on interleaves
Interleave, duration : 1655 ms (41.36 video frames)

On the files where the audio isn't longer than 440 ms, mediainfo states 32 kHz. While in the files where the audio is ok, mediainfo states 48 kHz. It could be that it is the very short audio that mediainfo states wrong kHz value.

But I don't think anything is wrong with the audio on the DV tapes.

The issue here is that WinDV doesn't capture the audio (when using winDV to start the camera) when it is 16 bit audio. And I see a lot have had this issue in the past. And luckily it is a workaround for this, so I can still use winDV. But I wanted to ask if someone to this day have been solving "the mystery" yet. But probably a bug in winDV. If using 12 bit audio for DV, then the "problem" is absent. So maybe I stick with 12 bit, when taking DV shots. I believe that 12 bit vs 16 bit audio doesn't matter as long as I'm using the "built in" microphone. If taking shots at a concert with a external microphone, then I think the 16 bit audio should be used.

[DB83]

The question is what did you record that clip as - 16 bit 48 khz or 16 bit 32 khz ?. If the recording was the former then as aedipuss states the program is picking up a bad bit. It could be a bug and, after all, WinDV has not been updated for a long time.

Better to stick to the known than worry about the unknown.

[brusno]

The question is what did you record that clip as - 16 bit 48 khz or 16 bit 32 khz ?. If the recording was the former then as aedipuss states the program is picking up a bad bit. It could be a bug and, after all, WinDV has not been updated for a long time.
Better to stick to the known than worry about the unknown.

When I record at 12 bit it will be 32 kHz, and when recording at 16 bit it will be 48 kHz.
But...mediainfo will report 16 bit for the 12 bit audio too.
I tested the audio now:
1. 16 bit, 48 kHz; when this is captured fine, then mediainfo reports: 16 bit, 48 kHz. OK.
2. 12 bit, 32 kHz; when this is captured fine, then mediainfo reports: 16 bit, 32 kHz.
3. 16 bit, 48 kHz; when this is captured faulty (only 440 ms), then mediainfo reports: 16 bit, 32 kHz.

Make no mistakes. No mixed takes.

So...the audio in the mediainfo in my previous post is recorded as 16 bit, 48 kHz....but mediainfo wrongly says 32 kHz for this. Because it is only 440 ms audio which is present.

[DB83]

If I get time, I will do some of my own tests. Unfortunately none of these will use a camera but I can alter the audio bit for the stream.

Mediainfo is not perfect but I do find your arguement hard to swallow expecially if type-1 records/reports fine.

[DB83]

Ok. I took a little time out and will now post the results of both DV types with both audio.

Type-2 12 bit audio: 1 PCM stream * 1,024 kbps 32 khz (16 bit)
Type-2 16 bit audio: 1 PCM stream *1,536 kbps 48 khz (16 bit)
Type-1 12 bit audio: 2 PCM streams * 768 kbps 32 khz (12 bit)
Type-1 16 bit audio: 1 PCM stream * 1536 kbps 48 khz (16 bit)

This appears to confirm your statement BUT ONLY for Type-2 DV all others are reported corrected in mediainfo.

The interesting part is No3 which, unless I cocked my tests up, reports correctly but has the two streams as the equivilent of one at 16 bit. I do not have the technical knowledge to explain that one.

In all these tests, the audio was coming through before capture started. That means that it is not the fact that WinDV is starting a camera to report 12 bit as 16 bit in type-2 DV

[brusno]

If I get time, I will do some of my own tests. Unfortunately none of these will use a camera but I can alter the audio bit for the stream.

Mediainfo is not perfect but I do find your arguement hard to swallow expecially if type-1 records/reports fine.

Since you mention type-1, I did some tests on this too (winDV):

1. 16 bit 48 kHz; captured fine; mediainfo states 16 bit 48 kHz; sound is OK.
2. 12 bit 32 kHz; video captured fine; mediainfo states 12 bit 32 kHz (!), 2 audio tracks present. But the sound was not OK. Just a lot of noise.

smrpix said that DV can record 4 channels in 32 kHz. So I guess all 4 channels are being showed in mediainfo for this. 2 x (L,R).

[2Bdecided]

But probably a bug in winDV.

Yes, I think it is. I used something else (probably enosoft DV processor) to capture 16/48 DV audio, because I couldn't figure out what triggered it in WinDV. I had a feeling it was dependent on the camcorder as well as the tape - i.e. maybe some camcorders are telling the DV interface to expect 12/32 until the very moment you start playing a 16/48 tape?! I don't know.

Cheers,
David.

[aedipuss]

there is a setting in most miniDV camcorders to make 12bit the default. it would send that info first even with a 16bit tape in the cam for that short time the tape lead-in played.

[Cornucopia]

16/48 is the default for DV. 12/32 is a "specialty" variation (just like "LP" mode) and is prone to mis-interpretation by a number of apps.

This is the first instance I've heard of there being a problem with 16/48. Maybe it's your setup (PC or cam, like what aedipuss just mentioned).

Scott

[brusno]

Ok. I took a little time out and will now post the results of both DV types with both audio.

Type-2 12 bit audio: 1 PCM stream * 1,024 kbps 32 khz (16 bit)
Type-2 16 bit audio: 1 PCM stream *1,536 kbps 48 khz (16 bit)
Type-1 12 bit audio: 2 PCM streams * 768 kbps 32 khz (12 bit)
Type-1 16 bit audio: 1 PCM stream * 1536 kbps 48 khz (16 bit)

This appears to confirm your statement BUT ONLY for Type-2 DV all others are reported corrected in mediainfo.

I'm noticing that:
type 2, 12 bit audio; 1024 kbps, 32 kHz; 16 bit x 32 kHz x 2 = 1024 kbps.
type 2, 16 bit audio; 1536 kbps, 48 kHz; 16 bit x 48 kHz x 2 = 1536 kbps.
type 1, 12 bit audio; 768 kbps, 32 kHz; 12 bit x 32 kHz x 2 = 768 kbps.
type 1, 16 bit audio; 1536 kbps, 48 kHz; 16 bit x 48 kHz x 2 = 1536 kbps.

The type 2, 12 bit should have been 768 kbps. But it is 1024 kbps! Which indicates 16 bit with 32 kHz according to the math above.
And this could be the reason why mediainfo yields 16 bit for this. Maybe WinDV is upscaling the 12 bit to 16 bit somehow? That it is using more kbps than necessary? (1024 kbps instead of 768 kbps).

In all these tests, the audio was coming through before capture started. That means that it is not the fact that WinDV is starting a camera to report 12 bit as 16 bit in type-2 DV

Yes WinDV can start the camera indeed.

In all these tests, the audio was coming through before capture started. That means that it is not the fact that WinDV is starting a camera to report 12 bit as 16 bit in type-2 DV

WinDV is not reporting, just capturing. And it might be that WinDV is making 16 bit 32 kHz out of 12 bit 32 kHZ! According to the numbers above.

[aedipuss]

winDV doesn't do ANY processing of the incoming video. it ONLY captures what is sent into either type 1 or 2 avi.

[Cornucopia]

It could be that your particular camera(s) are padding your 12bit/32kHz streams to fill it out so it matches the expected length allotted for 16/48. And then MediaInfo is mis-reporting (or not if you look at it that way).

Upshot: WinDV is a very handy tool for many users, but isn't the be-all, end-all for everyone who needs DV. There are other tools. Use one of those if WinDV doesn't fit your needs. Just understand what is to be expected from DV streams so you know when you get something "unexpected".

Scott

[DB83]

16 bit[/B] x 32 kHz x 2 = 1024 kbps.
type 2, 16 bit audio; 1536 kbps, 48 kHz; 16 bit x 48 kHz x 2 = 1536 kbps.
type 1, 12 bit audio; 768 kbps, 32 kHz; 12 bit x 32 kHz x 2 = 768 kbps.
type 1, 16 bit audio; 1536 kbps, 48 kHz; 16 bit x 48 kHz x 2 = 1536 kbps.

The type 2, 12 bit should have been 768 kbps. But it is 1024 kbps! Which indicates 16 bit with 32 kHz according to the math above.
And this could be the reason why mediainfo yields 16 bit for this. Maybe WinDV is upscaling the 12 bit to 16 bit somehow? That it is using more kbps than necessary? (1024 kbps instead of 768 kbps).


.

Your logic is wrong. Maybe your maths as well.

16 bit/48 khz audio is 1,536 kbps. In fact that is as reported above and is common to both types.

If you simply take 12 bit as 75% of the 16 bit your would arrive at 1152 kbps. Someone might be able to explain why it results in 1024.

The odd-ball is item 3 but, again, that is 1,536 and not 768 as you believe it to be.

None of which is relevant to the question as to why you have no sound.

[brusno]

I'm noticing that:
type 2, 12 bit audio; 1024 kbps, 32 kHz; 16 bit x 32 kHz x 2 = 1024 kbps.
type 2, 16 bit audio; 1536 kbps, 48 kHz; 16 bit x 48 kHz x 2 = 1536 kbps.
type 1, 12 bit audio; 768 kbps, 32 kHz; 12 bit x 32 kHz x 2 = 768 kbps.
type 1, 16 bit audio; 1536 kbps, 48 kHz; 16 bit x 48 kHz x 2 = 1536 kbps.

The type 2, 12 bit should have been 768 kbps. But it is 1024 kbps! Which indicates 16 bit with 32 kHz according to the math above.
And this could be the reason why mediainfo yields 16 bit for this. Maybe WinDV is upscaling the 12 bit to 16 bit somehow? That it is using more kbps than necessary? (1024 kbps instead of 768 kbps).

If you simply take 12 bit as 75% of the 16 bit your would arrive at 1152 kbps. Someone might be able to explain why it results in 1024.

The explanation is in my calculations. 16 bit x 32 kHz x 2 (L/R) = 1024 kbps. (Should have been: 12 bit x 32 kHz x 2 (L/R) = 768 kbps).
You say that 12 bit is 75 % of 16 bit. And then you calculate 75 % of 1536 kbps. But you forget that the 16 bit is 48 kHz while the 12 bit is 32 kHz. So your logic is wrong here

Item 3 IS 768 kbps as stated in your list. Or are you thinking that it is 1536 kbps because there are 2 audio tracks? But it is the same track twice. So you have to look at what kbps one of the tracks have. Not adding the both.

You're right about that this isn't about not having sound in type 2 capture in winDV (16 bit). But rather the issue about mediainfo displaying the wrong data. 16 bit instead of 12 bit.

[brusno]

It could be that your particular camera(s) are padding your 12bit/32kHz streams to fill it out so it matches the expected length allotted for 16/48. And then MediaInfo is mis-reporting (or not if you look at it that way).

I don't think it's my camera. Because DB83 got the same result as me for 12 bit, 32 kHz, type 2. 1024 kbps. And the common factor for our tests is WinDV.

I think the conclusion for the issue about winDV not capturing the audio while autostarting camera in type 2, 16-bit mode, has to be a bug in WinDV. Because no one has the answer for this behavior.

And the conclusion for the issue about mediainfo displaying 16 bit instead of 12 bit in type 2, 12 bit mode, 32 kHz, has to be winDV also. Perhaps a bug nr. 2.

But I will mention that winDV suits my needs, because it is a great program to capture DV. And because of its simplicity.
If one is aware of its bugs, then it is no problem.
I think I will use type 2 captures. And making 16 bit, 48 kHz audio in the recordings. And if I'm starting the camera just before beginning the capture in winDV. Then there will be no problem

[smrpix]

I think the conclusion for the issue about winDV not capturing the audio while autostarting camera in type 2, 16-bit mode, has to be a bug in WinDV.

It is kind of remarkable that in over 11 years of Win DV continual use you're the first to discover this bug.