PAL DVD bad ghost frames

[Jappyanime]

Hello, I am new to this site and I have been wanting to get an answer to this question for a long time.
I am from Australia so obviously we have PAL DVD format as Europe and Asia do.
I have been getting these horrible ghost frames on the DVD when I rip them to my computer.
I have tried different players such as VLC, Media player, etc- and nothing has changed.
I have deinterlaced it and that didn't work either, it just got rid of the scan lines.
If anyone could help, that'd be great.
I also have another quick question, I ripped my entire DVD collection on my laptop, but I put it on my portable hardrive and then put the footage on my desktop, would there be any change in quality of the video footage?
Thanks.
-Jasper

[intracube]

Hello, I am new to this site and I have been wanting to get an answer to this question for a long time.
I am from Australia so obviously we have PAL DVD format as Europe and Asia do.
I have been getting these horrible ghost frames on the DVD when I rip them to my computer.
I have tried different players such as VLC, Media player, etc- and nothing has changed.
I have deinterlaced it and that didn't work either, it just got rid of the scan lines.

The cartoon was probably produced in Japan in 'NTSC' (59.94fps). If you bought the DVD in Australia, the video would've been converted to 50fps 'PAL'. This could introduce blending artefacts.

I don't know if there's any processing that could reduce or get rid of the blended frames.

I also have another quick question, I ripped my entire DVD collection on my laptop, but I put it on my portable hardrive and then put the footage on my desktop, would there be any change in quality of the video footage?

Not if you just copied the files across. There would only be a drop in quality if the files were converted/transcoded.

[jman98]

Actually NTSC is 29.97 fps and PAL is 25 fps. intracube's doubling is if you count fields. It's confusing, so just use my numbers instead of his. But his general point is right that NTSC<->PAL conversion is to blame for this.

It may be possible to make this somewhat better via AviSynth scripting, but the original poster admits to being a newbie and it means that he's going to have to spend a decent amount of time learning how to use a tool he has no experience with. We've had posts like this before and we've got gurus who like to take up challenges like this. If you can get about a 10-15 second extract from this video and post it (it would be great to get it at a section with ghosting) one of our gurus might be interested in trying to help you.

[Jappyanime]

I see. Would I be able to convert it to NTSC or would there be a loss in quality?

[jagabo]

Yes, field blending can be (mostly) removed and the video restored to 24 fps progressive frames. But it requires AviSynth which will take a bit of time and effort to learn. Search for threads containing SRestore.

[intracube]

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/342437-Pal-retail-dvd-with-blends-looks-bad

[intracube]

Actually NTSC is 29.97 fps and PAL is 25 fps. intracube's doubling is if you count fields. It's confusing, so just use my numbers instead of his. But his general point is right that NTSC<->PAL conversion is to blame for this.

Yes, I shouldn't have used 'fps' with my figures. I should have (and prefer) to use 59.94i where 59.94 denotes the 'temporal sampling'. In this case it's important - although the original cartoon might be 24p, the conversion to NTSC and then to PAL will have split each film frame across the video fields unevenly. I know you know the telecine process, but that's my rationale for 59.94i over 29.97i even though they're the same.

This has all got to be as clear as mud for a newbie.

Jappyanime; If you don't want to go to the trouble of advanced filtering, just choosing a decent deinterlacer with your media player (like VLC) will give some improvement.

With VLC, start playing the video, then go to Video->Deinterlace mode->Yadif (2x)

This will give smoother playback compared to some of the other modes. If you want VLC to use Yadif 2x by default, you need to set it in the video section of the Preferences. Make sure you use 'Yadif 2x' not just Yadif.

[manono]

Jappyanime; If you don't want to go to the trouble of advanced filtering, just choosing a decent deinterlacer with your media player (like VLC) will give some improvement.

But he already said he had tried deinterlacing it (probably a single-rate deinterlacer, though):

I have deinterlaced it and that didn't work either, it just got rid of the scan lines.

If he's serious about his anime encoding hobby, he has to learn AviSynth. And particularly so when in a PAL country with all those crappy field-blended conversions from NTSC. There's just no way around it. I'd suggest he first go to the Anime Music Video site and read the whole thing a few times, especially the sections on AviSynth:

http://www.animemusicvideos.org/guides/avtech/avisyntha.html

Followed by working his way through the AviSynth site:

http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/Main_Page

[intracube]

Jappyanime; If you don't want to go to the trouble of advanced filtering, just choosing a decent deinterlacer with your media player (like VLC) will give some improvement.

But he already said he had tried deinterlacing it (probably a single-rate deinterlacer, though)

I've found using a double-rate deinterlacer gives a marked improvement in these sorts of cases.

He hasn't said that he's into video restoration per se - just that he's ripped DVDs to his computer.

IMO bad framerate conversions are more of an issue with live action footage. Anime has already got a coarse animation style which will hide some of these framerate conversion artefacts.

manono; do you happen to know if srestore is compatible with avxsynth (linux)? I'd like to give it a whirl at some time.

[Jappyanime]

Alright, thanks a lot guys.
Also, with BD disc's, it doesn't have a PAL or NTSC format right?
Thanks.

[jagabo]

If you upload a short sample someone will take a look at it...

[Jappyanime]

Is PAL better quality then NTSC for watching on a TV? Because PAL has a higher resolution right?

[jagabo]

Is PAL better quality then NTSC for watching on a TV? Because PAL has a higher resolution right?

That's the general consensus.

[yoda313]

Anime has already got a coarse animation style which will hide some of these framerate conversion artefacts.

I think that is a bit of a generalization. I am not a true afficianado of anime but I have watched quite a bit over the years. There is a wide range of styles from what most people would call a more traditional animation style to the over the top out-and-out zanny versions.

There is a range of anime that would be maybe "blocky" in description or maybe the older animes that didn't have the same fluid animation as the modern animes have.

Sorry to go offtopic but I just thought I'd expand on that bit from the other post.

No offense intracube just thought I'd point out there really isn't one style for anime there are a few classes within anime itself.

edit -

Also, with BD disc's, it doesn't have a PAL or NTSC format right?

For high def the resolutions are the same but the frame rate/fileds aren't. So you have the same 720p or 1080i/p but you have 60/50 and 29.97/25 to deal with. - if you're lucky its 24p and you can probably leave it as is in any area of the world but thats a big if - if its 24p that is.

[Jappyanime]

Okay, so why is PAL better quality than NTSC?
It also really sucks that I can't get rid of the ghost frames. I wanted to make an amv without them...

[poisondeathray]

Okay, so why is PAL better quality than NTSC?

You already explained why - the higher vertical resolution. But only if it was an original PAL source, or the transfer wasn't done poorly, or some other conversion issue. So something like an original BBC produced series should look good.

But if you have a mess of a NTSC=> PAL blend transfer - like what you probably have - then arguably the extra resolution is next to useless

It also really sucks that I can't get rid of the ghost frames. I wanted to make an amv without them...

You can probably improve it with avisynth. No filter will get it 100% perfect, but it's worth a shot . Either that or get the NTSC version. Most PAL spec DVD players can play NTSC discs



Just to double check - are you getting the ghosted frames on the DVD player as well? Did you make sure not to set the software to blend deinterlace

[intracube]

Anime has already got a coarse animation style which will hide some of these framerate conversion artefacts.

I think that is a bit of a generalization. I am not a true afficianado of anime but I have watched quite a bit over the years. There is a wide range of styles from what most people would call a more traditional animation style to the over the top out-and-out zanny versions.

There is a range of anime that would be maybe "blocky" in description or maybe the older animes that didn't have the same fluid animation as the modern animes have.

Fair enough. My exposure to anime is limited to glimpses of it while channel hopping. Next you'll be telling me that watching it doesn't lead to seizures http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZzTpjh-NsQ

It also really sucks that I can't get rid of the ghost frames. I wanted to make an amv without them...

You've had several suggestions on how to reduce the problem - have you tried any of them yet? At least try Yadif 2x deinterlacing and post back with your findings.

[jman98]

Alright, thanks a lot guys.
Also, with BD disc's, it doesn't have a PAL or NTSC format right?
Thanks.

In high definition (1080i/p or 720p) this is correct but BD format does support NTSC and PAL DVD resolutions and frame rates. NTSC and PAL video is mostly used for extras ported over from DVDs.

[yoda313]

Next you'll be telling me that watching it doesn't lead to seizures

Hey how we respond to "art" is different person to person. To each his/her own as they say

FYI I'm afraid to click on the link now

[intracube]

FYI I'm afraid to click on the link now

If you don't, my comment won't make sense

If you really haven't clicked on it - it's a Simpsons clip where they visit Japan

[yoda313]

If you don't, my comment won't make sense

If you really haven't clicked on it - it's a Simpsons clip where they visit Japan

Ahh - Not a simpsons fan but now I understand a bit more about what you were getting at - still haven't clicked the link yet