DVD recorder digital tuners

[usually_quiet]

Well I'm afraid I'm not posting to be 'sociable', there are many many things I don't know, and do not profess to be an expert on anything. It's the overwhelming attitude of condescension that bothers me, I've seen and read it too many times. Maybe it's just a generation gap thing...... most people over 50 are generally polite and unassuming in their responses and attitudes toward others, whether it's on line or in person. Here, automatic assumptions are made not based on fact, just braggadocio.
There's no need for that...... if I wanted to, I could act like an asinine teen-ager and say " Hey Dude, u don't know what
the f*ck ure talkin about, stop blowin' it out ure butt hole ! " ........ if that's what you people prefer......

The only member here that consistently provides seemingly accurate and non-biased opinion is Mr. Orsetto.
The flaming seems to originate from the same bunch of people, who are apparently more interested in bickering with
each other as opposed to giving helpful info for newbies, or are tired of seeing the same old video-related questions.

The very beginning of my post involved questioning the picture quality of the latest Magnavox/Funai-made machines,
and how they compare to older Philips recorders, and other name brands. How it got to this point, I don't know, however
I seriously suggest some of you look yourselves in the mirror and ask yourselves why you respond the way you do.

Your initial post:

What's the difference between US ATSC digital tuners and European DVB-T tuners ? Seems like the DVD recorder market in the US is completely dead, while elsewhere outside the US, there's an abundance of new DVD recorders with DVB-T tuners.......

Nothing about Funai there.

Ask noobish questions like this and people will decide that is the level of understanding you have. I've lost count of the number of times a topic similar to this has come up since 2007. There ought to be a sticky about it.

As for the rest, your own attitude throughout the course of this thread leaves a lot to be desired and you should be taking your own advice regarding looking at oneself in the mirror.

[orsetto]

Cable had nothing to do with ATSC. Coax cable is a lower interference, higher signal to noise medium completely different to terrestrial OTA RF packet broadcasting.

Agreed. I don't think I implied cable had anything to do with ATSC in my post, but if people are reading that into it then my wording was poorly chosen. Cable QAM is a separate boondoggle from ATSC, with its own set of good intentions blown to hell by business realities.

My beef with ATSC is that for all the talk now about it being "carefully chosen to meet uniquely North American broadcast and geographic needs," in the early days of hearings performance had little or nothing to do with it. There was a lot of jingoistic nonsense lobbying from zombie companies like Zenith pushing the idea of an incompatible American standard under the false assumption it would benefit American electronics mfrs. The powers that be fell for this line of crap and proceeded to piss away the better part of a decade trying to make ATSC workable, when it was clear from the outset it was about equal to the European and Asian standards (i.e., would pretty much drive people to sign up for cable and satellite because its off-air reception was worthless in most households). When it became obvious we were stuck with ATSC and no amount of tinkering could ever make it even 20% as useful as the old analog broadcasts, the digital transition switch was finally thrown. We might have had a better selection of consumer products like recorders had they just admitted the system sucked and forced the transition years earlier, before the economy tanked. But thats water under the bridge, and I imagine broadcasters would have fought early adoption ferociously. The whole mess is just unfortunate: one of the rare cases where digitizing something pushed us three steps backward instead of a leap forward.

[orsetto]

I have the Magnavox 513[...]All in all, I would happily purchace the 513 again if I had to. Magnavox also has a 500GB model that is about $50 more - same specs, same everything, but I concluded that the 513 was more cost effective for my needs.

I tend to agree the 513 is the better buy, even if the premium for the 515 is only $50. The 513 has proven to be less buggy with a much smaller percentage of "funky out of the box" units. OTOH, many of the complaints leveled at the 515 are a bit unfair, centered as they are on its supposed inability to handle cable tuning "perfectly". Very few QAM-capable recorders tune cable "perfectly", most have problems including the Mag 513 and the previous H2160/Philips 3576. The issues stem more from the cable provider than the recorder: QAM just hasn't worked out to be as "consumer-friendly" as promised. (Oddly, the one feature Panasonic's current cheesy bug-ridden lineup gets right is QAM tuning: of all the current recorders, the Panasonic EZ line nails stable QAM tuning notably better than other brands.) The primary Magnavox 515 advantages over the 513 are a much-improved remote control and the addition of title memory to its timer system (i.e., you can enter the show title "CSI: Miami" once in the weekly timer, and the machine will auto-title each subsequent recording of that show.)

I DO wish that it would give me a way to off load things that I want to keep via a network output, but all it gives me is a record to DVD+-R output.

A number of people simply swap HDDs in and out, and never bother with DVDs at all. The Magnavox has a fairly straightforward internal service mode for formatting any random replacement HDDs, and they can be installed or removed at will without disturbing their video contents. Some "power users" even install extension HDD data and power cables outside the recorder cabinet to interface with an external "HDD Dock."

[joecass]

Ask noobish questions like this and people will decide that is the level of understanding you have. I've lost count of the number of times a topic similar to this has come up since 2007. There ought to be a sticky about it.

As for the rest, your own attitude throughout the course of this thread leaves a lot to be desired and you should be taking your own advice regarding looking at oneself in the mirror.[/QUOTE]


It wasn't exactly a "noobish" question..... after I read something about DVB-T capable of using some form of QAM tuning, I was wondering
whimsically why these overseas Panasonics can't be adapted for use in the USA. Not all of us have the time to view the 211,000 Google
pages on this subject, sometimes a simple post here can give a pretty quick answer

My own attitude stems from the type of responses I read from people like you, although I certainly appreciate your expertise and have
learned a lot from reading your posts and posts of others such as EdDV, I find your attitude objectionable and unnecessary.
We can just agree to disagree......and leave it at that.
I've been on many other forums such as Tom's Hardware, AVS Forum, Amazon discussions, Yahoo Answers and countless others
where I don't see any of the nonsense that goes on here.

[usually_quiet]

My own attitude stems from the type of responses I read from people like you, although I certainly appreciate your expertise and have
learned a lot from reading your posts and posts of others such as EdDV, I find your attitude objectionable and unnecessary.
We can just agree to disagree......and leave it at that.
I've been on many other forums such as Tom's Hardware, AVS Forum, Amazon discussions, Yahoo Answers and countless others
where I don't see any of the nonsense that goes on here.

Then your memory is very selective. Heated discussions can and do go on in all the places you mention, including a few mildly insulting comments about other posters at times.

It wasn't exactly a "noobish" question..... after I read something about DVB-T capable of using some form of QAM tuning, I was wondering
whimsically why these overseas Panasonics can't be adapted for use in the USA. Not all of us have the time to view the 211,000 Google
pages on this subject, sometimes a simple post here can give a pretty quick answer

Sorry, you can't dig your way out of this. The question, as originally written, was a newbie question, and posted in the newbie forum, to boot. You got a newbie-appropriate answer. I was promptly blasted with a sarcastic reply for suggesting what even Orsetto considers a pretty decent choice among the currently available DVD recorders. This is especially surprising now, since you say you frequent the AVS forums. I would have predicted that anyone with a consuming interest in DVD recorders who was a frequent visitor there would be familiar with Wojo's very complete documentation of the very products I mentioned.

The fact is, I have NEVER once said I was an expert at any time in this thread . On the other hand you wrote this:

I know all about every which way there is to record OTA, TIVO, HD Tuner cards, HD cable, QAM analog, MOXI, and everything else in between.

Now which of us is the arrogant, self-proclaimed expert?

[Seeker47]

.
I've been on many other forums such as Tom's Hardware, AVS Forum, Amazon discussions, Yahoo Answers and countless others
where I don't see any of the nonsense that goes on here.

I have to note that your description (of VH) does not really square with my experiences here either, for however long I have been a member. Things have gotten a little too lively on one occasion or another, in certain threads, but overall I find the civility and decorum here to be of a fairly high standard. Perhaps not as "strictly to the business at hand" as on some much more highly moderated sites, but really nothing to complain about. (Actually, I think the mods here have sometimes shut a thread down too quickly and too easily.) The members here really make an effort to be helpful.

[edDV]

Cable had nothing to do with ATSC. Coax cable is a lower interference, higher signal to noise medium completely different to terrestrial OTA RF packet broadcasting.

Agreed. I don't think I implied cable had anything to do with ATSC in my post, but if people are reading that into it then my wording was poorly chosen. Cable QAM is a separate boondoggle from ATSC, with its own set of good intentions blown to hell by business realities.

My beef with ATSC is that for all the talk now about it being "carefully chosen to meet uniquely North American broadcast and geographic needs," in the early days of hearings performance had little or nothing to do with it. There was a lot of jingoistic nonsense lobbying from zombie companies like Zenith pushing the idea of an incompatible American standard under the false assumption it would benefit American electronics mfrs. The powers that be fell for this line of crap and proceeded to piss away the better part of a decade trying to make ATSC workable, when it was clear from the outset it was about equal to the European and Asian standards (i.e., would pretty much drive people to sign up for cable and satellite because its off-air reception was worthless in most households).

Well this version of history doesn't jive with my observations of how DTV played out. Zenith and others opposed the hybrid analog-digital Japanese Hi-Vision (Muse compression) system that even Japan abandoned. Other early hybrid HD schemes like European HD-MAC (multiplexed analog components) didn't fit the USA market. I was in the middle of both of those making compatible studio equipment. There was a desire in the USA to wait for a full digital broadcasting solution. This was all pre MPeg2.

The US Congress pushed for early adoption of DTV in the USA not for HDTV but to free RF spectrum for cellular phones and other wireless telco services. The "Grand Alliance" moved quickly as MPeg2 compression and 8-VSB/COFDM RF modulation were tested. 8VSB was chosen over COFDM because of better performance with large transmitters in rural areas common in North America. First ATSC broadcasts were done in 1996.

DVB progressed more slowly. COFDM modulation was chosen to fit European practice of higher quantity lower powered transmitters. They do this to keep the signal contained to small country borders. First DVB broadcasts were in 2003.

So are you arguing that US should have gone with HiVision? That was not compatible with Congressional mandates promoting wireless telco growth. HiVision required more spectrum use.

When it became obvious we were stuck with ATSC and no amount of tinkering could ever make it even 20% as useful as the old analog broadcasts, the digital transition switch was finally thrown. We might have had a better selection of consumer products like recorders had they just admitted the system sucked and forced the transition years earlier, before the economy tanked. But thats water under the bridge, and I imagine broadcasters would have fought early adoption ferociously. The whole mess is just unfortunate: one of the rare cases where digitizing something pushed us three steps backward instead of a leap forward.

Totally disagree that ATSC is less useful than analog NTSC. We get 3 to 6 times the channels (in HD) in half the RF spectrum. When ATSC moves to h.264, this will double again in channels or halve the spectrum again.

I think your frustration comes down to copy protection issues that mostly affect cable and satellite. At least until 2012, the broadcast flag is prohibited for over the air ATSC. You can record anything with an ATSC DVD recorder or computer. I fear what Congress may do when all this gets re-visited in 2012.

[edDV]

It wasn't exactly a "noobish" question..... after I read something about DVB-T capable of using some form of QAM tuning, I was wondering
whimsically why these overseas Panasonics can't be adapted for use in the USA. Not all of us have the time to view the 211,000 Google
pages on this subject, sometimes a simple post here can give a pretty quick answer.

...

Now we have the question refined. Quick answer is probably no.

DVD recorder tuners vary by local markets. As already answered DVB models are not compatible with ATSC. But the question on cable QAM requires more research. In general, Europe uses a form of DVB with cable and sat, not 256QAM. There may be a country somewhere in the world that uses 29.97 fps analog NTSC and uses 256QAM with North American cable channel frequencies and has a better selection of DVD recorders. It wouldn't matter if the OTA tuner was DVB or ISDB-T.

I'd start my search in South America in places where cable has converted to digital. Korea and the Philippines are also possible.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fileigital_broadcast_standards.svg

[usually_quiet]

Totally disagree that ATSC is less useful than analog NTSC. We get 3 to 6 times the channels (in HD) in half the RF spectrum. When ATSC moves to h.264, this will double again in channels or halve the spectrum again.

You have to admit that on the consumer's side, ATSC has drabacks as well as benefits.

It is definitely not as robust as NTSC for delivering a watchable picture over great distances, or in urban areas, or over hilly terrain. Some broadcasters are still in the process of erecting translators to reach former OTA customers who lost their signal after the transition.

Half of the channels I receive are 480i. When reception is decent, I get a nice clear picture, but much of the texture and finer details I used to be able to see with NTSC are absent. The kind of low-bitrate encoding that is needed to fit programming into the bandwidth allocated for SD sub-channels doesn't preserve it.

I'm really hoping that the government won't force broadcasters to replace MPEG-2 with H.264 for normal ATSC TV broadcasts for a while. Nobody is going to be happy about being put in the position of needing to buy new equipment again.

[lacywest]

WoW ... lots of comments ... some of you know already what I have had and dont have anymore. I did have about 5 Panasonic EH50s. I needed the money and sold them. Looking through my stuff in the garage ... I think I have one more EH50 as backup. I say this because I have a EH50 that the tray wont open and one that has bad video ... DVD or Tuner ... either way ... the video is bad.

I have thought about taking the DVD carriage in the one with bad video and swapping it with the unit that the tray wont open and make a working unit.

But in the meantime ... a couple of weeks ago ... I took the EH50 with the tray that wouldn't open off the shelf.

And replaced it with a Panasonic EZ27 Black ... bought it ... close to 2 years ago on Ebay. Works fine ... I seen it mess up when it was in the living room ... last year. But it has not messed up since we put it in our bedroom. And it is not picky on what sort of Brand of DVDs we put in it. Well I say that because the EH50 ... would only work with the Value Pack Shiny TY DVDs from our advertisers. But now I'm using Maxell DVD-Rs ... 13 bucks for 50 Pack at Walgreens ... and having no problems.

We do want a DVD Recorder connected to our Directv HR10-250 ... it is packed with movies from Turner Classic Movies channel. I just recently ... put 3 movies with Elizabeth Taylor on DVDs ... last night.

Right after Elizabeth Taylor passed away .. my wife recorded a bunch of Elizabeth Taylor movies that TCM showed. Raintree County ... Who is afraid of Virginia Woolf and Butterfield 8 ... and my wife just told me ... "I still have some more I want put on DVDs" The good thing about TCM ... they dont show commercials during the showing of the movie ... like the AMC channel does.

As for what DVD Recorder to use ... as long as Panasonic has that ... Flex Record ... feature ... I am happy. I did not like the way Pioneer did it ... I do have one of there units ... sitting up on a shelf in a closet ... but it has a analog tuner it it.

Raintree County ... took up over 3 hours on the Directv box ... I put it all on one DVD and quality was good enuff to keep it as it is. But I went through the movie once ... to see where I could put the unit in ... pause mode ... being a old movie ... it had a Intermission ... in the middle.

Digital broadcasts ... I have an antenna on my Chimney ... I pick up all three major networks ... and the FOX Channel [ Channel 26.1 ] and ... The CW [ 59.1 ] and the ... PBS Station ... Channel 18.1

I do it all in my home ... plus I do use antenna amps ... Motorola outdoor type ... [ 2 of them ] ... and also record TV shows with a ATI PCI 650 card in my PCs.

[edDV]

Totally disagree that ATSC is less useful than analog NTSC. We get 3 to 6 times the channels (in HD) in half the RF spectrum. When ATSC moves to h.264, this will double again in channels or halve the spectrum again.

You have to admit that on the consumer's side, ATSC has drabacks as well as benefits.

It is definitely not as robust as NTSC for delivering a watchable picture over great distances, or in urban areas, or over hilly terrain. Some broadcasters are still in the process of erecting translators to reach former OTA customers who lost their signal after the transition.

There were several changes that happened during the analog NTSC shutdown that affected reception. The change to digital ATSC was only one of them.

Most major TV stations moved from lower VHF to UHF. Lower VHF (Ch 2-6) is best for bending over hills and penetrating buildings but also requires the largest antenna. For both economic and technical reasons most stations abandoned lower VHF. Many TV stations on the upper VHF band (Ch 7-13) stayed put but some of those also moved to UHF so that urban viewers could use the smaller antennas.

This general move from VHF to UHF affected long distance reception. UHF is more line of sight, doesn't bend over mountain tops or penetrate trees as well as VHF. This caused some reception holes in areas that formerly received the VHF signal. Also, the FCC has been rather conservative on setting UHF transmission power limits in order to avoid interference with other stations on the same frequency. Many UHF stations have applied for higher power limits. Some are using translators to fill the reception holes.

ATSC urban reception problems were mostly caused by multi-path interference. The fifth generation ATSC decoder chips have mostly solved these issues, still antenna pointing is important.

I'm in an extreme reception challenged area surrounded by mountains and ridges. Still I can pull in UHF out to 60 miles and upper VHF at 129 miles, all bending over hills (aka 1 edge or 2 edge). The nice thing about digital is when the channel comes in, the picture is excellent. The people up on top of the ridge are pulling in dozens of stations out to 180 miles.

Half of the channels I receive are 480i. When reception is decent, I get a nice clear picture, but much of the texture and finer details I used to be able to see with NTSC are absent. The kind of low-bitrate encoding that is needed to fit programming into the bandwidth allocated for SD sub-channels doesn't preserve it.

This is a local station issue. In the past they could transmit one NTSC program in their 6 MHz channel. With ATSC transmission they get a 19 Mb/s data stream that they can divide any way they wish. If they devoted all the bit rate to one 1080i channel*, you would get near Blu-Ray quality but instead they usually divide the bit rate into two to six subchannels. For 480i subchannels, most stations send similar bit rates to cable (~2.6 Mb/s vbr average). Some send more, some less. Note that ATSC sends 704x480 SD resolution vs ~528x480 for cable and satellite.

* 1920x1080p 23.976 fps is an allowed ATSC format but nobody uses it currently.

I'm really hoping that the government won't force broadcasters to replace MPEG-2 with H.264 for normal ATSC TV broadcasts for a while. Nobody is going to be happy about being put in the position of needing to buy new equipment again.

This will be optional for each TV station. The current plan is to require the primary channel remain MPeg2 for legacy tuner compatibility but provide codec choice for the subchannels. The new standard mostly affects future TV tuners. ASTC TV stations currently must send one MPeg2 primary which can be SD or HD. They can put anything they want in the secondary channels. Some use the extra bit rate to send data, others send encrypted h.264 movies to motels.

There is a new extension to ASTC called M/H or mobile TV. This h.264 subchannel is optimized for robust reception on mobile devices. Data is sent in bursts to a buffer in the device so that the stream can continue even in areas where the signal is lost.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATSC-M/H
http://broadcastengineering.com/news/atsc-mh-basics-0315/

[Seeker47]

There is a new extension to ASTC called M/H or mobile TV. This h.264 subchannel is optimized for robust reception on mobile devices. Data is sent in bursts to a buffer in the device so that the stream can continue even in areas where the signal is lost.

Would this be useful for something like Netflix streaming ? (I'm thinking of a couple occasions where the NF signal buffered a few times before finally quitting altogether with an error message. I did get some advice from another user that this means I might need a "repeater" for that location, to bolster the performance of my G-based home network. However, most of the time NF streaming has been working o.k. Some of the problems could be at their end.) Maybe applicable to the WD Live devices that can do streaming ?

I note that my VOD from DirecTV works only by first downloading the movie or program to their DVR, before it is available for viewing. But that is different from either NF streaming or the new method you are mentioning.

[edDV]

There is a new extension to ASTC called M/H or mobile TV. This h.264 subchannel is optimized for robust reception on mobile devices. Data is sent in bursts to a buffer in the device so that the stream can continue even in areas where the signal is lost.

Would this be useful for something like Netflix streaming ? (I'm thinking of a couple occasions where the NF signal buffered a few times before finally quitting altogether with an error message. I did get some advice from another user that this means I might need a "repeater" for that location, to bolster the performance of my G-based home network. However, most of the time NF streaming has been working o.k. Some of the problems could be at their end.) Maybe applicable to the WD Live devices that can do streaming ?

I note that my VOD from DirecTV works only by first downloading the movie or program to their DVR, before it is available for viewing. But that is different from either NF streaming or the new method you are mentioning.

Netflix and other streaming services first test the connection then adjust data rate and set a buffer size based on connection reliability. Sometimes the buffer runs out. When this happens Netflix' will adjust data rate and build a larger buffer in an attempt to prevent another interruption. Like other network packet streamers, if any packets are missing, the client player requests a resend of the missing packets until the buffer is complete.

In your case, the wireless G connection may be losing speed relative to Netflix' initial connection test or packet loss is causing data resends. When Netflix sees lost packet requests it may slow the data rate or stop the stream for another connection test.

ATSC M/H broadcasting has a more difficult task. The broadcast is one way and continuous, for example a live news or a sports game. Imagine watching from a moving car that passes through tunnels or other dead zones. The player can't request a resend of missing packets. Instead program segments are sent at faster than real time rate along with segment repeats from the past. This allows the player to add lost packets to keep the buffer continuous.

[joecass]

Sorry, you can't dig your way out of this. The question, as originally written, was a newbie question, and posted in the newbie forum, to boot. You got a newbie-appropriate answer. I was promptly blasted with a sarcastic reply for suggesting what even Orsetto considers a pretty decent choice among the currently available DVD recorders. This is especially surprising now, since you say you frequent the AVS forums. I would have predicted that anyone with a consuming interest in DVD recorders who was a frequent visitor there would be familiar with Wojo's very complete documentation of the very products I mentioned.

The fact is, I have NEVER once said I was an expert at any time in this thread . On the other hand you wrote this:

I know all about every which way there is to record OTA, TIVO, HD Tuner cards, HD cable, QAM analog, MOXI, and everything else in between.

Now which of us is the arrogant, self-proclaimed expert?[/QUOTE]


You can interpret things however you want.... and apparently don't know when to leave well enough alone. I ALWAYS pose
questions in the "Newbie/General Discussion" area because that gives the quickest repsonse, and that's exactly what I got.
Maybe I used improper wording in saying "every which way", it only applies to whatever I've researched or experienced.

I consider many if not most of your responses "expertise", which is defined as "special skill or knowledge". It wasn't a slam.
According to member info, you have 2268 posts compared to my 154. In a part of this thread when I mentioned doing a new motherboard build, you came up with an instant answer and link. In my way of thinking, that's 'expertise'......

Another post of yours declared your 'tiredness' of reading questions about DVB-T tuners which go back to 2007.... I am also pretty tired of reading the same "the current Magnavox recorders are the only game in town" responses. While that may be true, there are other options, namely DVD/VHS recorders made by Panasonic, LG and Sony. Because forum members here think them to be garbage, doesn't mean they're not feasible for other DVD recorder buyers.
The statements you made regarding "Panasonic Fanboys" was an instantaneous judgement on your part. That Panasonic is a mid or lower level manufacturer has never been historically true. Their Plasma line of flat screens have always been used as a benchmark for PQ comparisons.

Yes I do frequent the AVS forums, mainly to discuss and gain info on equipment I own, not DVD recorders.
Once last year I posted a question here when my 2003 Sony DVD recorder drive died.... and again, I got slammed for
even daring to ask such a silly question about replacing the drive.

There's absolutely no point in arguing semantics, comparing levels of knowledge or anything else not related to useful information. I'm not interested in high school level debates, nor do I care what anyone thinks of me or my posts.
It's my right to have my own opinion, if you don't like what I write, then don't bother responding.....
and while we're at it, tell me why Wajo moved his Philips thread to AVS Forum ?

[usually_quiet]

You can interpret things however you want.... and apparently don't know when to leave well enough alone. I ALWAYS pose
questions in the "Newbie/General Discussion" area because that gives the quickest repsonse, and that's exactly what I got.
Maybe I used improper wording in saying "every which way", it only applies to whatever I've researched or experienced.

I consider many if not most of your responses "expertise", which is defined as "special skill or knowledge". It wasn't a slam.
According to member info, you have 2268 posts compared to my 154. In a part of this thread when I mentioned doing a new motherboard build, you came up with an instant answer and link. In my way of thinking, that's 'expertise'......

Another post of yours declared your 'tiredness' of reading questions about DVB-T tuners which go back to 2007.... I am also pretty tired of reading the same "the current Magnavox recorders are the only game in town" responses. While that may be true, there are other options, namely DVD/VHS recorders made by Panasonic, LG and Sony. Because forum members here think them to be garbage, doesn't mean they're not feasible for other DVD recorder buyers.
The statements you made regarding "Panasonic Fanboys" was an instantaneous judgement on your part. That Panasonic is a mid or lower level manufacturer has never been historically true. Their Plasma line of flat screens have always been used as a benchmark for PQ comparisons.

Yes I do frequent the AVS forums, mainly to discuss and gain info on equipment I own, not DVD recorders.
Once last year I posted a question here when my 2003 Sony DVD recorder drive died.... and again, I got slammed for
even daring to ask such a silly question about replacing the drive.

There's absolutely no point in arguing semantics, comparing levels of knowledge or anything else not related to useful information. I'm not interested in high school level debates, nor do I care what anyone thinks of me or my posts.
It's my right to have my own opinion, if you don't like what I write, then don't bother responding.....
and while we're at it, tell me why Wajo moved his Philips thread to AVS Forum ?

You are not going to change the "character" of this forum. If so many of us are so unpleasant and argumentative that you don't like coming here, there is a simple solution to the problem... Baldrick can even remove you from the membership if you ask. ...and while your are at it you can ask a mod to close this thread, if it is not useful to you anymore.

If you want to know why Wajo left, ask him. He never said. Unless Wajo said something privately to Orsetto, he really doesn't know either.

...and I won't be replying to any questions you post in the future. You can count on that.

[Edit]I thought I should add some information for the sake of accuracy. Toshiba, Panasonic and Magnavox are the only companies now selling DVD recorders made for the US market, although Funai actually makes the DVD recorders for both Toshiba and Magnavox. Panasonic has not introduced any new US models since 2008, and has reduced their product line to 2 machines. The last I saw anything about it, Panasonic's commitment to this product category ends after this year. I haven't seen anything about the others' plans.

It is still possible to find a limited offering of Sony and LG DVD recorders, as left-over new stock, refurbs, and used items, but neither company is producing DVD recorders for sale in the US anymore. (I checked their US websites for current models, and found none listed.)

[orsetto]

I am also pretty tired of reading the same "the current Magnavox recorders are the only game in town" responses. While that may be true, there are other options, namely DVD/VHS recorders made by Panasonic, LG and Sony. Because forum members here think them to be garbage, doesn't mean they're not feasible for other DVD recorder buyers.

I am a little confused by this part. Did you mean to say DVD/HDD, or DVD/VHS? For most of this thread, you appear to have been interested in an ATSC equivalent of, say, the old Panasonic EH55. That was a DVD/HDD machine, and of that type of machine, NONE have been sold in the USA since late 2006 aside from the Magnavox, which does have an ATSC/QAM tuner, and the "unofficial" Panasonic imports (no tuner). The same thing more or less occurred in Canada, except Pioneer (and its Sony clones) still marketed non-ATSC DVD/HDD models a bit longer (until mid-late 2008). There may or may not still be a Canadian LG model, I think its gone now with the other brands. In any case the LG with HDD had an atrocious track record for reliability: no matter what the quality of its recordings, it wasn't much good if it broke down quickly.

If you were not referring to DVD/HDD models, and did mean to say the remaining lame DVD/VHS models are "feasible for other DVD recorder buyers", that opinion is debatable (as is every other opinion anyone posts, of course). Most members who participate in most recorder forums despise the DVD/VHS models with good reason: they don't work the way their marketing implies (easy good-quality tape dubbing), and they usually don't even work well as basic recorders for TV. The tuner/timer systems are crawling with bugs and misfires, dubbing without an HDD "bridge" between VHS and DVD is a nightmare, and the majority of DVD/VHS models cannot even be relied on to make a simple timer recording of a TV show without their clocks going haywire or their anti-piracy circuits stopping the recording if a commercial comes on with a Beatles tune as the jingle. Most forum members do not just randomly post anti- DVD/VHS hate screeds: they're almost always in response to a bitterly disappointed buyer who posts their own tale of woe with a useless POS Panasonic EZ48v, Sony RDR-VXD655, Toshiba DVR-670 or JVC DR-MV150. The ratio of negative posts re current ATSC DVD/VHS recorders is something like 10% "expert" reviews vs 90% responding to a newbie complaint that their DVD/VHS was a stinking ripoff so "what else can they buy instead".

Once last year I posted a question here when my 2003 Sony DVD recorder drive died.... and again, I got slammed for even daring to ask such a silly question about replacing the drive.

I'm surprised you felt that way: there wouldn't be much point in "slamming" you, because the option of repairing a 2003 Sony is off the table: Sony just doesn't stock parts for recorders more than 2-3 years old anymore. The only possible response to such a question would be advising you to bring the machine to your nearest Sony service center and praying they still had a spare burner (also warning you the new burner would run $250-300). The older Sonys were very popular, more so in Europe than North America: its unfortunate the GX900, HX715, HX525, etc can't be repaired anymore if their burners fail. But this is true of nearly every other brand as well: Pioneer is gone altogether, Toshiba XS burners cost a fortune IF you find them, and Panasonic recently pulled the plug on their $139 flat-fee repair program (they now charge close to $400 for new burner + control board for an EH55, if you actually manage to get thru to the one facility that can actually do the repair).

If someone needs a new DVD recorder that won't be a total painful disappointment, the only recommendable choices are the import Panasonics (no tuner at all) or the Magnavox (ATSC tuner, not everyone adores them). FYI, ex-VH member wajo left this forum and took his invaluable compendium of Magnavox info elsewhere because he was tired of getting trapped into pointless pissing contests with a couple of Toshiba XS and Panasonic fanboys who tortured him. Netiher side was blameless: wajo failed to realize his single-minded fixation on supporting Magnavox users essentially made him a target as THE defacto king of the fanboys, while his Toshiba XS and Panasonic adversaries really needed to take a chill pill and realize their machines were A) dead, discontinued, unrepairable, never coming back, B) useless for off-air recording after 2008, and C) not threatened by the Magnavox, which was not a true replacement for them but certainly a workable patch-job (considering nothing else similar was ever going to be sold here again). People get passionate: sometimes its good, sometimes its none too helpful. I've been guilty myself on numerous occasions.

[nic2k4]

As you say HDD recorders are getting hard to find; some Futureshop stores still have the LG in stock, but it's not listed on the website. I see lots of refurbished Funai machines in liquidation stores, but no new models.

I found 2 alternatives, "upgrade" an existing recorder to ATSC with a Zinwell ZAT 970-A STB; it's rather pricey (does go on sale for $20 off) and a little flaky (the channel list resets itself screwing up the timers). That problem appears to be caused by the way some stations update their program guide and depends on the signal strength of the station. If the recorder has an IR blaster and supports the STB, it might be possible to use a different STB (just thought of another way using a programmable remote with timer function).

The other way is to use an FTA PVR receiver, the high end models have an ATSC tuner. They used to be expensive, but now that the satellite pirating days are over you can get them cheaper than some combo recorders:

http://www.wintroniccomputers.com/wintronics/viewProduct.jspa?product=bf73088c1c3abb1d...1c90ecde77001f

http://www.wintroniccomputers.com/wintronics/viewProduct.jspa?product=c35fee022af9173c...2bfe5ef5780268

Some models are said to have flaky timers; the Sonicview is a better built machine (I don't know which brands to avoid I haven't seen one with a bad timer yet).

[usually_quiet]

Thanks Orsetto, I forgot to look at JVC's US website, which still lists one DVD recorder, a VHS/DVD combo with a ATSC/QAM/NTSC tuner.

So if one is interested in a current US model with a digital tuner the choices are the Funai-built Magnavoxes and Toshibas (with 2 tuner-equipped models each), the 2 remaining Panasonics, and JVC's one VHS/DVD combo.

[Edit]It turns out SonyStyle is still offering a DVD recorder for sale, although none are listed at the main Sony website
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10151&catalo...52921665186462

[Seeker47]

So if one is interested in a current US model with a digital tuner the choices are the Funai-built Magnavoxes and Toshibas (with 2 tuner-equipped models each), the 2 remaining Panasonics, and JVC's one VHS/DVD combo.

I don't really need another DVDR, but I'm still considering picking up one of those remaining Magnavoxs as a spare, while they are still around. Trying to choose between the 513 and 515, based on the UI usability improvements vs. possible reliability difference, as detailed in Orsetto's #63 post, above.

[orsetto]

I found 2 alternatives, "upgrade" an existing recorder to ATSC with a Zinwell ZAT 970-A STB; it's rather pricey (does go on sale for $20 off) and a little flaky (the channel list resets itself screwing up the timers). That problem appears to be caused by the way some stations update their program guide and depends on the signal strength of the station.

Yes, the Zinwell was popular in the States, too, for awhile during our digital transition. Unfortunately as you say it and the other one or two models with built-in timer program grids were not reliable when programmed due to the unstable clock system inherent in the program data itself: a shame, because these would otherwise be a perfect solution for upgrading older recorders. Eventually most of us "buffs" settled on the LG/Zenith DTT901 and Channel Master CM7000 accessory tuners: they can't be programmed for multiple events, but offer the best PQ of available "cheap" tuner adapters.

Others went out on a limb and bought a Magnavox DVD/HDD recorder to be used as primarily as an outboard tuner/timer feeding their fancier "vintage" Toshiba, Pioneer, Panasonic or Sony DVD/HDD machine. This sounds crazy unless one knows the Magnavox is often available as a like-new "refurb" deal at just $159 (including free shipping) from Magnavox' liquidation partner J&R Electronics in NYC. While the Magnavox does not feature a multi-day automated timer grid, it does have a manual "old school" timer that can be programmed for multiple events/channels. Its tuner can be configured to play in full 16:9 via line out, for off-air use this creates a quite nice signal you can patch into your older DVD/HDD recorder. While it is of course tedious to set the timer on both the Magnavox and your primary recorder, at least this combination gives you a reliable multi-event ATSC timeshifting solution that lets you keep using your preferred older recorder (and as a bonus, the Magnavox is simultaneously making backup recordings on its own HDD). Of course you could use any other ATSC-capable recorder as an outboard tuner as well, but only the Magnavox includes an HDD. The high-capacity HDD lets you avoid worrying about keeping a recordable DVD in the machine at all times, avoids having to erase a DVD, dramatically increases reliability for multi-event recording, and is more easily-adaptable for use as a companion tuner/timer for an older recorder.

The other way is to use an FTA PVR receiver, the high end models have an ATSC tuner. They used to be expensive, but now that the satellite pirating days are over you can get them cheaper than some combo recorders:

Thats a GREAT tip- thanks! If these continue to drop in price they could make an excellent tuner alternative for older recorders. I'm gonna start tracking these over the next couple months.

[usually_quiet]

I found 2 alternatives, "upgrade" an existing recorder to ATSC with a Zinwell ZAT 970-A STB; it's rather pricey (does go on sale for $20 off) and a little flaky (the channel list resets itself screwing up the timers). That problem appears to be caused by the way some stations update their program guide and depends on the signal strength of the station. If the recorder has an IR blaster and supports the STB, it might be possible to use a different STB (just thought of another way using a programmable remote with timer function).

There were two lines of ATSC converter boxes with event timers sold in the US, Dish's DTVPal and Zinwell.

I have some experience with the DTVPal ATSC converter boxes. The DTVPals are no longer made, but the main problem with the timer feature as implimented by the DTVPal is the device does not have its own internal clock. It relies on the time sent in the ATSC signal. In my case this could be off by as little as 2 minutes or as much as 5 hours. The magnitude of the error is unpredictible. It seems to vary by channel and the attentiveness of the control room staff that day. The time sent is more accurate than it was initially but it is almost always off by a little.

The Zinwells have their own internal clock as well as an event timer. I don't own one, but the complaints I read about them a couple of years ago said the internal clock does not keep accurate time, even when the manual time setting is used.