Render MPEG-2 for DVD - How to improve quality?

[edDV]

Thanks! I'll try CBR 9800. If that still looks like it has (roughly) the same amount of pixelation as what I've already done, then I think I'll have ruled out encoding as the weak link.

Is it safe for me to add audio to the CBR 9800 once I get to DVD Architect, like I did for the last test? Or would the presence of audio somehow degrade the video?

If it still has pixelation something else is probably causing it. Try posting a sample.

[tripecac]

Okay, CBR 9800 looks the same as the others. The fact that these encoding settings have no apparent effect on pixelation makes me wonder if the problem is somewhere else...

So I found a way to get the Preview window in Vegas to expand almost to full screen. This lets me check for pixelation in the capture itself.

And guess what... The pixelation is there. In the capture, the DV-AVI file. I just don't notice it on the standard TV for some reason. But I see it on the screen.

So this means the pixelation is being introduced in the capture rather than the encoding. Sigh. I feel like I just wasted a bunch of time! (mine and yours)

I guess this means I need to go back to my capture thread:
https://forum.videohelp.com/topic353032-30.html

[jagabo]

The pixelation is there. In the capture, the DV-AVI file... I guess this means I need to go back to my capture thread:
https://forum.videohelp.com/topic353032-30.html

I looked at the sample images from Hi8 to DV and didn't see any significant macroblocking. The last three images in this post:

https://forum.videohelp.com/topic353032.html#1863600

DV can show a little macroblocking but far less than any DVD MPEG conversion. But reading your last post on that thread I don't think you are talking about macroblocks but rather interlace comb artifacts which are perfectly normal in interlaced video. It your video is processed properly on the way to DVD you will not see the artifacts on TV.

[edDV]

Try to cap some stills or a few frames of MPeg2 to illustrate the problem.

You might want to try a better quality Hi8 sample tape to test the capture chain.

Do I understand correctly that your capture chain looks like this?

Hi8 camcorder ---(S-Video)--->MiniDV camcorder---(Firewire)--->Computer

And you monitor this way?

Computer---(Firewire)--->MiniDV camcorder---(S-Video)--->LN40A650 or CRT SDTV

And the problem doesn't show with direct connection?

Hi8 Camcorder ---(S-Video)--->LN40A650 or CRT SDTV

[tripecac]

I posted a still here:
https://forum.videohelp.com/topic353032-30.html#1865277

I've been posting back in the capture topic, since the pixels seem to be capture related. Sorry for splitting it up like that!

[tripecac]

Hi8 camcorder ---(S-Video)--->MiniDV camcorder---(Firewire)--->Computer

Yes! Pass-through doesn't seem to degrade the quality any more than recording to MiniDV first and then transfering to PC second.

Computer---(Firewire)--->MiniDV camcorder---(S-Video)--->LN40A650 or CRT SDTV

Computer---(Firewire)--->MiniDV camcorder---(Composite-Video)--->SDTV

My PC isn't near the HDTV, so I can only monitor on the SDTV.

And the problem doesn't show with direct connection?
Hi8 Camcorder ---(S-Video)--->LN40A650 or CRT SDTV

Hi8 Camcorder ---(Composite-Video)--->LN40A650 or CRT SDTV

Correct, I don't see the blocks, just general graininess (which I don't mind as much).

[edDV]

I don't see blocks, just resized interlace. A non-issue if you avoid deinterlace or resize.

That seal pic has extreme contrast.

Any more examples?


PS: The composite monitor connection introduces NTSC cross color artifacts. No S-Video connection?

[tripecac]

I don't see blocks, just resized interlace. A non-issue if you avoid deinterlace or resize.

I posted another screen grab in the other topic, this time using the copy-to-clipboard feature. It's 720x480, so isn't being resized.

By the way, I'm not embedding screen grabs in the posts; they're links (hosted on tripalot.com). Here's the 3 latest:

http://tripalot.com/issues/images/20080708-capture-blocky.gif
http://tripalot.com/issues/images/20080708-capture-blocky-2.png
http://tripalot.com/issues/images/20080709-capture-blocky-3.png

If I zoom in on these, I can definitely see (what I call) blocks, particularly in the lower left near the edge of the railing.

That seal pic has extreme contrast.

Seal? Do you mean the one taken at 9:21:50AM ? That's a guinea pig!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tripecac/sets/72057594095168211/

It's pretty dark in the guinea pig room, so I wouldn't be surprised if the colors are all over the place.

The composite monitor connection introduces NTSC cross color artifacts. No S-Video connection?

My TVs don't have S-video, just composite (and component in the case of the HDTV). The only S-video connection I have is between the 2 camcorders.

[tripecac]

Hi, a couple questions:

1) As instructed previously, I turned off deinterlacing. In my last two DVD tests, I've been noticing the pixels a lot more. It might be my imagination, but they seem more prominent. I'm viewing them on a HDTV (1080p). If my main viewing TV is progressive scan (HDTV), should I turn deinterlacing back on? Are there other settings I can tweak to favor HDTV?

2) For some reason, Vegas has been rendering deleted frames (see https://forum.videohelp.com/topic353834.html ) -- I'm wondering if this is related to the interlacing (or de-interlacing).

[jagabo]

1) As instructed previously, I turned off deinterlacing. In my last two DVD tests, I've been noticing the pixels a lot more. It might be my imagination, but they seem more prominent. I'm viewing them on a HDTV (1080p). If my main viewing TV is progressive scan (HDTV), should I turn deinterlacing back on?

If you deinterlace now you will forever be stuck with the result. As much as half the temporal and spacial resolution of your source will be lost forever. If you leave your video interlaced you will retain all that information. Your current HDTV will deinterlace in some manner as the video is being displayed. It may not do a particularly good job now but deinterlacing techniques are improving with time. Your next HDTV will likely do a better job.

If you are making DVDs to watch now, and plan to keep your DV tapes/files then this isn't a big issue. Do whatever works best for you now. But if you don't plan on keeping the DV tapes/files the DVDs will be all you have. You will want to preserve as much of the Hi8 data as possible.

Interlaced material does require more bitrate than progressive material.

[tripecac]

So is there a chance that getting Vegas to deinterlace will help reduce pixelation on my HDTV?

If you deinterlace now you will forever be stuck with the result.

The deinterlacing is just for the rendering, right? It doesn't chance the source video. So it's only DVDs (and web-targeted videos) which will be affected. Correct?

I intend to keep the raw captured DV-AVI files forever, on hard drives (with one set offsite). Those are my "master" copies from which I will generate DVDs and web videos. The DV-AVIs are what need to be as pristine as possible.

The DVDs are just for testing and viewing. I expect to burn updated versions over time, as I get better at editing and rendering. I won't be trusting DVDs as a primary backup.

So, given that DVDs are (in my mind) disposable, and I'm trying to get them to look good on a specific HDTV, is deinterlacing a good idea?