Whats the best tool to rip DVD and keep AR & have VBR MP3?

[manono]

I have tried to make a 1400mb file this time on 2nd system and the original output is about 1.26gb, which is excellent in quality, but it is 1.26gb not 1400mb. And in just after 1st pass is complete, it tells me the output may be resized.

Now we're getting somewhere. My guess here is that you saturated the codec - got the best possible quality for the settings used, and it didn't need the full size. Here's how you confirm that suspicion (or disprove it). Have a look at the log. Where you see a line about 2/3 of the way down:

Predicted comptest value is: 55.16%

If that value is above 100%, then it just can't use the entire size. And if at the bottom of the log it says:

Expected quality of first pass size: 52.05%

If the expected quality was above 90% or so, then the same thing applies. Not seeing the log, I don't know if you set a width or not, as you did with the earlier one. But my guess here is that there's a different problem, one that can be solved (maybe) by either lowering the requested size, using better quality audio (AC3 rather than MP3, for example), maybe adding in a second audio track (Director's Commentary, maybe), or setting a higher width if you set one for that encode.

So, again, you want a final percentage (the last figure in the log) of roughly 65-80% or so. Above 90% or so and you may not have hit the size you want. And if the Predicted comptest value is over 100%, then the same thing applies - you won't reach the size you want. But you will get a really good looking result.

BOTH times it just stops at around 130mb

That's very strange. Splitting shouldn't take more than a very few minutes. You might check the log, although if VDubMod froze, I don't guess the log will have anything to say about it.

oh, where can I delete the .dll files left over from Xvid if any? where would they be?

Hehe, I was afraid you'd ask that. After uninstalling XviD, look in your Windows->system32 folder, and scroll down to almost the bottom. Delete anything starting with xvid that you might find.

I see you've provided an update. Good luck!

[jagabo]

I don't understand the obsession with 700 MB (or 1400 MB) files. If you're not putting all your movies on CDs there's no need to make them that size. Just use single pass constant quality (target quantizer in Xvid) mode.

Multipass VBR: "I want a certain file size, I'll accept whatever quality I get for that size."

Single Pass Target Quantizer: "I want a certain quality, I'll accept whatever file size I get for that quality."

[manono]

Maybe you didn't read the entire thread. He wants to follow the "scene" requirements when making his AVIs, and they have rules about the length of the movies vs the allowed number of CDs (or fractions of CDs when dealing with TV show type lengths). Otherwise I would agree with you; 1-pass for a defined quant is the way to go if burning to DVDR or storing on a hard drive. Much faster, too.

Multipass VBR: "I want a certain file size, I'll accept whatever quality I get for that size."

But AutoGK does have some internal tweaks to adjust the quality for a defined file size, if the quality is going to turn out to be too low - adjust the resolution (if allowed to), the quantisation matrix used, and the resize filter used. But there's only so much it can do, especially if the user sets a defined width and doesn't allow AutoGK to adjust it if the compress test result is too low.

[jagabo]

What I'm saying is "**** the scene requirements." They are outdated. The people involved are stuck in a CD mindset. In 50 years are we still going to be making 700 MB files because some ancient storage medium came in that size?

Resolution is part of quality. Otherwise we'd all encode our videos a 1x1 pixels and get really good compression.

Sorry manono. Just ranting...

[manono]

Resolution is part of quality.

Very true, but if someone chooses to encode for - say - 240x180, then even if he makes it quant 1, it'll still be unacceptably soft when full-screened. What you said applies equally to 1-pass encoding.

I was agreeing with you in my reply earlier, and the scene rules may be outdated, but I was only answering the questions incrediblej was asking using the restrictions he imposed. As you know, AutoGK is perfectly capable of making 1-pass encodes, but he doesn't want to do it that way.

[Midzuki]

Resolution is part of quality. Otherwise we'd all encode our videos a 1x1 pixels and get really good compression.

That's why I advised him to move towards AVC and AAC.
But I'm afraid he does not want to listen.

*****

[jman98]

incrediblej - VBR MP3 is pure unadulterated b.s. and if you think you HAVE to use it, you have a lot to learn my friend. VBR MP3 causes a lot of playback problems on non-PCs. It barely saves any disk space over CBR MP3. There is no reason to use it. It's like agreeing to buy a brand new HDTV for over $1500 and getting excited because you found a store that will sell it to you for 10 cents cheaper when you should be looking for stores that will save you hundreds of dollars. In the grand scheme of things using VBR audio over CBR audio saves you maybe 1% at most on the disk space. Yeah, that is really worth all the extra potential trouble that VBR gives you - not.

[Midzuki]

As for VBR mp3 in AVI containers:

A movie with 25 fps, 3 hours long, 2 streams AC3 (2 frames per chunk), 1 stream MP3-VBR:

* 3 hours are 10.800 seconds
* 270.000 frames
* 450.000 units of overhead per MP3 stream
* 168.750 units of overhead per AC3 stream

These are so far about 1.339.000 units of overhead.
In a standard AVI file, this means 32 MB of overhead, while it causes only 21 MB in an Open-DML file.
Lets assume a destination size of 2 GBs altogether. With an audio interleave and rec list size of 250 kB, there will be 8000 rec lists, causing another 224 kB of overhead in a standard AVI file, or 96 kB in an Open-DML file.

As you can also see, one MP3-VBR stream causes more overhead than the video stream and the AC3 stream together!

{source: http://www.alexander-noe.com/video/amg/en_estimate_overhead.html }

*****

[incrediblej]

okay, thanks manono it seems okay this outcome, I have been getting a 'knockback' because of Blended_Frames, would this be interlacing do you think? and any idea how to get passed this blended frames issue?

Anyhow, I will see how this comes back first, I was just thinking that maybe because of interlacing this = blended frames...

As when I was using Fairuse Wizard with VBR enabled, I was getting bad results:
faint.line.throughout.movie_i10.tinypic.com.7yn2fd j.png_blended.frames_15.16.743.817.etc.on.sample_b ad.ivtc

so anyone who wants to use fairuse for this purpose of VBR encoding, just say NO

---
Hey manono below is this same film but done with autoGK, I have not submitted it yet, as my first 2 submission were 'bad' if you know what I mean, so I dont want to submit this film a 3rd time if it is going to be blended.frames again, so I just wanted to know if you think blended.frames is because of interlaced source? and if there is a way to make it so there is no blended.frames.

Here is the log from this rip, can you tell me if everything looks normal to you please?

Thanks again so much, and for the 'sample' thread too

now, If i can just get it to 'pass', well I have not submitted anything by AutoGK yet, and people are saying use it, so I am hoping it will be fine

Cheerz again mate, u have been a biig help.. my next mission is DVD-R once I successfully get this under wraps



lost_and_found_dvd_agk.log

[manono]

This is the Lost And Found?

http://former.imdb.com/title/tt0455149/

I don't know that film, but it's from Australia. Perhaps the DVD has blended fields. To be sure, though, we'd need a small (10 seconds with movement) sample of a source VOB uploaded somewhere. It might also mean you can't use AutoGK for the job unless you use one of the 3rd party add-ons which allow you to adjust the .avs. That kind would be better done manually, or through GKnot. As you discovered, about all AutoGK can do is to deinterlace it. The deinterlacer it uses (LeakKernelDeint) doesn't create any blending. It was already there. It also means that FairUse, AVINet and any of the others can't handle that kind either.

I have been getting a 'knockback' because of Blended_Frames, would this be interlacing do you think?

I don't know what "knockback" means.

and any idea how to get passed this blended frames issue?

Yes, an AviSynth unblending filter, if it really has blended fields. It needs to be unblended, not deinterlaced. But again, a sample would be needed to be sure.

Just out of curiosity, on what grounds are you planning on propering the original Lost And Found release?

[lordsmurf]

What does "propering" mean? Is that another stupid non-sense term like "TV rip" or "VHS rip" (both of which were clearly made up by people that don't know anything about video).

[Midzuki]

What does "propering" mean?

The "well-known" 'Proper.***Rip.Releases' , I suppose.

*****

[manono]

In that log to which he linked he gave the name of the AVI he's making and it has "PROPER" as part of the name. That means this is a better release than an earlier one put out by a rival group, one which he and his group believe should be "nuked", or withdrawn from circulation, because of a technical flaw of some sort in that original release. I was asking what he believes to be wrong with the original release. But since his encode has frameblending for reasons not yet entirely clear, his encode isn't quite ready to proper anything.

[incrediblej]

Okay, thanks manono but I am really getting there now..

From the Log file in my above post is says:
[17/12/2007 7:05:29 PM] Source has percentage of interlacing in motion areas: 50.74

this is where I have done the same film that came out at 1.26gb above to 700mb (Lost and Found).

That info in your post about saturating codecs is really helpful, the 1.26gb output was above 100%, so that explains that so I have now just made it 700mb as you can see from the above log (same movie) and the comptest percentage is 71.70% so is good enough if 100% is 100% quality!... and I found 2.40 works much better than 2.45 btw.

I have installed a copy on my Vista system also, and has some problems with COM Surrogate Shutting down, although the output still works, though the size thing again, just if anyone is having problems with Vista and autoGK.


Anyhow, back to my problems with first issue, not to get ahead of myself..
oh, and to quickly answer the proper question, that was an incorrect tag, changed to REPACK after this, the original was nuked. (oooh I better watch those logs hehe, bit dangerous the info it gives away )

Okay, so I know the original I am working with I am assuming is interlaced from the log file, and also has blended frames as this is what is came back with for the nuke (blended.frames) (knockback = nuke btw)
I could do what you said and cut a sample from the VOB to make sure, but if an encoder cannot CREATE blended frames from an unblended frames source (can it?) then we can say yes it is interlaced and has blended frames. Though if you do wish to help me through the battle with this I will upload a sample if you can tell me which tool to use please (this will also come in handy in future too i suppose).

So before I submit the RePack / ReRip I say will need to remove the blended frames using the AVISynth unblending filter, so we will assume for now it does have blended fields.

Other than that, I think we are now good... the only thing standing in the way to a good output (for this source anyhow) is the fact that the first 2 submissions were nuked for this reason, that is assuming an encoder (fairuse wizard) cannot Blend an unblended source as i said above.

I have learnt alot from you manono, and thankyou once again for taking the time to help.

If you dont mind telling me how to make a sample out of the VOB, and taking the time to inspect it, I would'nt mind learning the rest and unblending the blended fields with the AVISynth tool.
And thanks for clearing up that interlacing is NOT the same thing as Blended fields, as I have been de-interlacing on autoGK thinking this may be the answer to the blended.frames issue was having with the originals.

oh, can you also please tell me what this means exactly, and the numbers:
[17/12/2007 7:05:29 PM] Source has percentage of interlacing in motion areas: 50.74

(taken from log above)

and is it a good idea in your experience to deinterlace these type of sources?

hope to hear from you again soon, greatly appreciated. And once this is finalized I will let you know the outcome of the submission of the final output, as it never would have happened if you were not here to guide me!

Cheerz

[mats.hogberg]

@incrediblej: The more I read this thread, the more I get the impression you're not struggling with this for your own private fun, but to release DVD rips to the public (or at least 3rd parties). Am I right, or am I wrong?

/Mats

[manono]

and is it a good idea in your experience to deinterlace these type of sources?

In my experience (and I've had a lot), it's never a good idea to deinterlace a film source.

if an encoder cannot CREATE blended frames from an unblended frames source (can it?) then we can say yes it is interlaced and has blended frames.

I didn't quite understand all of that, but if it has blended fields originally, and you then deinterlace it, you'll get blended frames. The fact that you have blended frames after deinterlacing it with LeakKernelDeint is almost (but not quite) proof of the source DVD having blended fields. Again, a sample from the source would be needed.

And since I don't think you'll be able to answer mats.hogberg's question satisfactorily, you can PM me if you like.

[incrediblej]

@ mats.hogberg - well to answer the question, I am trying to learn all this for my private self as the learning experience on how to encode films in this manner, and I would not be doing this if I was just 'serving 3rd parties', I am doing this because I want to learn how to do this, and if 3rd parties can have a result out of it too, then great for them, but that is not the reason.

But if there is some rule that says anything you learn cannot be forwarded to 3rd parties in the rules, then I will happily stop this thread..
ANd will be happy to answer any questions of yours.

[incrediblej]

well manono, I can say that the encoding is now coming out at the proper sizes on my XP2 System (my priimary encoding system), though the same thing when trying to split the output into cd1 and cd2, it is just stopping at around 130-140mb, I have tried with 3 diff sources now and the same thing.

It is actually not freezing up VDubMod, it just stops outputting, the counters are still running, but thats all.

I am not sure why this is happening, but is there a way I can manually do this process with VDubMod?

and also, how would I cut a sample of the source of the Lost and Found to just be totally sure it has blended fields, and so I can get the tool for AviSyntch to make them unblended.

Thanks also for the invitation to PM you, you have been a great help, and have learned a great deal, I wish there was more ppl like you that helped ppl learn.

So I am basically picking everything up, now I just have to learn to split a 1400mb into 2 files manually, or why would VDubMod be freezing up?
and would be good if you could let me know how to cut a piece of the VOB source to see if it has blended fields, and how to unblend them, so in future I will know for myself how to do this and not have to ask all the time

Cheerz, and thanks once again.

[manono]

Hi-

and also, how would I cut a sample of the source of the Lost and Found to just be totally sure it has blended fields, and so I can get the tool for AviSyntch to make them unblended.

Open a VOB in DGIndex, use the [ and ] buttons to isolate a small section. Then File->Save Project and Demux Video. If it's small enough, upload the resulting M2V somewhere and post the link here.

...but is there a way I can manually do this process with VDubMod?

Yes, but you shouldn't really have to. Let me see if I can find a guide:

http://www.doom9.org/vdubmod-procedures.htm

Scroll to the bottom, to the Editing section. Some other parts of the guide might be useful to you as well.

[mats.hogberg]

if 3rd parties can have a result out of it too, then great for them

Wrong. At VideoHelp we discuss backing up and format shifting of copyrighted material exclusively for your own personal use. This falls under "Fair Use". Making it available to 3rd parties does not, and is a crime in most countries, not to mention is against site rules.

/Mats

[incrediblej]

@mats.hogberg, okay no problems, I will not discuss 3rd parties at any legth at all from now on, I had no idea. I am backing up for my private self, but just for the point, if your cousin sees the film, he would be a 3rd party, and most of the ppl here would watch their encoded movies with a family member atleast... so basically we must keep any discussion with 3rd parties to Nil, I understand, and will not be sharing anything with anyone, this is for my own personal learning experience. Thanks for explaining it is against the rules to discuss a backup going out of private use, it will not happen again!

[mats.hogberg]

You may watch the movie you own together with "3rd parties" - no problem there. However, you may not give (or make available to) them a copy of it. There's a distinct difference, I'm sure you agree.

/Mats

[incrediblej]

Thanks manono I will firstly cut the small sample with DGIndex (I should use the one that comes with AutoGK? or download a inependant version and install? - where is it found in the autoGK files pls?)

I can upload this, I have a webhosting access.

Thanks for that guide also. Yea I should'nt have to but every time I try to make a 1400mb with autoGK it cuts out around 130-140mb of CD1 all the time, and if I abort cd1, it will start on CD2 and do the exact same thing, once it hits 130-140mb it just stops... it does not freeze, the counters are still running, but thats it, no progress...
I will check out the VDubMod guide, and check out how this can be done. I dont mind doing it manually if it saves the hassle of not working on my system for some reason... maybe in the future I will get it working (I am doing a clean install of XP in about a week on another PC that will be used for encoding so it may work then).. until then, a guide will come in handy, and like you say I will learn some more too which is always great.


Also, if you dont mind, could you point me out to the AviSynth tool for Unblending Frames in the meantime, and a guide to use it if its not too much hassle, as I have a feeling this ones gonna come back as Blended Fields when I upload the VOB sample.

Will get back soon, and again thanks for this... once again, I am learning a great deal for my encodings from you mate.. cheers.

[manono]

or download a inependant version and install? - where is it found in the autoGK files pls?)

I don't know that there is a useable DGIndex included with AutoGK. It uses command line, and there doesn't seem to be the GUI there. I could be wrong, though. Since DGIndex should be on every video encoder's computer, sooner or later you'll want to learn to encode manually, and you should get the complete DGMPGEnc package, read thoroughly the excellent included documentation, and play around with creating your own D2V project files with DGIndex and making your own scripts which use the included DGDecode.dll.

Also, if you dont mind, could you point me out to the AviSynth tool for Unblending Frames in the meantime, and a guide to use it if its not too much hassle,

There's no one tool and no guide. I can't recommend anything until I see the source and fool around with unblending filters (if, indeed, that's the problem).