VHS -> DVD-R legality question(s)

[nathanaa]

I recently took a bunch of homemade video tapes, of the last couple of years of basketball and volleyball games of my son's grade school teams, and made a DVD out of them. I helped one of the other parents make a kind of highlight reel. I just did the technical stuff, he picked out all the footage and clips he thought should be on the DVD. We made a bunch of copies and gave them out to all the parents.

Anyway, my son's science teacher is also the school librarian, and she asked me about something, which is why I'm hoping to find help about it here.

Someone donated a set of VHS tapes to the school last year, the documentary "Eyes on the Prize". She showed them to me, and the tapes are old and well used, pretty beat up to be honest. I don't know where they came from, but I'm guessing some library somewhere had them. She's afraid to use them much, she's afraid they might break and be worthless then. And, this set of tapes is like, $800 for a new set!

Anyway, during our project last month I talked with her a couple times about how I transfered the VHS tapes from the various parents tapes and DVDs and made our highlight reel. She asked me if I can do the same for the documentary tapes and make them into DVDs.

I said yes, physically I could do that, but I wasn't sure about the legality of it. She said as long as our school owns the videotapes, isn't it legal to make DVDs of them? I said I would look into it and get back to her next week.

Although it's a private school, we are small and don't have the kind of money to go around buying a replacement if a tape broke or got eaten by a machine. Used, these things are over $100 per tape!

So, anyone have any input on this issue? The documentary tapes are the retail release, 6-tape set. Could I legally make her a DVD-R back-up copy of the tapes to use, allowing her to archive the original tapes for protective purposes?

This is in the USA, state of Wisconsin, by the way. Thanks for any help and constuctive input!

[Dr_Layne]

Eyes on the prize now on DVD from PBS website:

http://teacher.shop.pbs.org/product/index.jsp?productId=2428602&clickid=home_educatorPick1_img

A_L

[nathanaa]

Yeah, wow, that so *didn't* answer my question. Good info to know, certainly, and perhaps potentially relevant - although I don't know how. I'll keep my mind open though, in case it is somehow.

As stated, our school doesn't have the money to even replace a broken tape, let alone buy the whole new set released on DVD.

I'm NOT looking for info on buying a DVD set, I'm looking for answers to my above query.

[MOVIEGEEK]

It's legal as long as you don't make a copy for yourself.Normally making copies is illegal but schools and libraries get a pass if they are used for educational purposes.

[nathanaa]

Ok, so unless someone contradicts you, I'll go with that info for now.

Based on that then, would if be legal to go to the public library here in town and get their Earth to the Moon VHS tapes that I've seen there, and make a copy for our school? Or would our school still need to have their own retail copy of something to make a DVD-R of it allowable?

Thanks for the response also.

[ntscuser]

I once read of a teacher who photocopied some hymn sheets to save wear and tear on the originals which were old and dilapidated. He was fined personally a great deal of money. I expect you would fall under the same category. The distributors are especially sensitive about backup copies of this kind of material and would hurl the full force of copyright law at you. In any case, schools are supposed to purchase special copies of tapes which include a license for (limited) public viewing. I find it hard to believe at least one teacher at your school is not aware of these restrictions.

[MOVIEGEEK]

Ok, so unless someone contradicts you, I'll go with that info for now.

Based on that then, would if be legal to go to the public library here in town and get their Earth to the Moon VHS tapes that I've seen there, and make a copy for our school? Or would our school still need to have their own retail copy of something to make a DVD-R of it allowable?

Thanks for the response also.

No,your school would have to own it.Title IV of the DMCA allows schools and libraries to edit film/audio,transmit film/audio over closed circuit and make copies for educational purposes.

[ntscuser]

Ok, so unless someone contradicts you, I'll go with that info for now.

Based on that then, would if be legal to go to the public library here in town and get their Earth to the Moon VHS tapes that I've seen there, and make a copy for our school? Or would our school still need to have their own retail copy of something to make a DVD-R of it allowable?

Thanks for the response also.

No,your school would have to own it.

Schools and other institutions are not alllowed to make copies of tapes, films or books whether they own the originals or not.

[MOVIEGEEK]

Schools and other institutions are not alllowed to make copies of tapes, films or books whether they own the originals or not.

Laws are not the same in every country,consult a lawyer for your local laws.

[ntscuser]

Schools and other institutions are not alllowed to make copies of tapes, films or books whether they own the originals or not.

Laws are not the same in every country,consult a lawyer for your local laws.

Here is the law for schools in the USA:-

http://www.movlic.com/k12/copyright/copyright.html

Almost every western country has a similar law.

[nathanaa]

Well, our school used to have an actual librarian, but not for about 4 or 5 years now I guess. Our enrollment is down almost 50% in the last 10 years, and many positions have been eliminated, with more eliminations to occur. All the teachers are doing at least double duty, wearing several hats to keep the school functional. Our science teacher/librarian is also in charge of the computer labs and the lunch program. That's one person who is doing what 4 used to do. It doesn't surprise me she doesn't know the legality of this issue.

And, that link was extremely informative, thank you. Legally it looks like it's a no-go on making DVD-R backups of the VHS tapes we received. Darn!

[jmkeuning]

Eyes on the Prize is a very interesting case that you have chosen for yourself. Under normal circumstances, I would recommend a letter to PBS, asking them to allow you to make back-ups of the tapes. However, this particular series is a hot button - the following is taken from my understanding only; it may have no basis in fact.

This series first aired twenty-years ago and was VERY well received. There has been great demand for its re-broadcast over the last two decades. Unofrtunately, the license holders of much of the photos, video, and audio used in the series only licensed PBS's use for a limited time and this time limit was up.

PBS recently started to broadcast this series again. Over the past few months they played the first six episodes. I was fortunate enough to record them on my own. I was looking at another program on PBS's website recently, "The Rise and Fall of Jim Crow," I noticed this message:
TAPING RIGHTS
Off-air taping rights for THE RISE AND FALL OF JIM CROW are avilable to educators for one year following each broadcast release. I have found no such reservation regarding Eyes on the Prize.

Regarding the idea of backing up your media that you won - from PBS - "Purchase shall mean the release of the Programs by PBS to Customer for use during the life of the materials. Under this Agreement, a Program will be delivered to Customer via tape, CD, DVD, digital file or other format." So they forsee the tapes wearing out and the purchase is only for the life of the tape!

As for MOVIEGEEK's librarian and school exception to the Copyright laws, I have never heard of this and would like some more information!

[FulciLives]

It is possible that this recent thread ties into this to some extent:

https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=314686

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[ntscuser]

It is possible that this recent thread ties into this to some extent:

https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=314686

Yes it does. If the original poster is a professor teaching film class he is permitted to copy short extracts from movies for instructional purposes.

[jmkeuning]

Regarding the librarian exception:

US Code, Title 17 Chapter 1 section 108 (c)(1)&(2):

(c) The right of reproduction under this section applies to three copies or phonorecords of a published work duplicated solely for the purpose of replacement of a copy or phonorecord that is damaged, deteriorating, lost, or stolen, or if the existing format in which the work is stored has become obsolete, if—
(1) the library or archives has, after a reasonable effort, determined that an unused replacement cannot be obtained at a fair price; and
(2) any such copy or phonorecord that is reproduced in digital format is not made available to the public in that format outside the premises of the library or archives in lawful possession of such copy.

Of course, you have to deal with the "fair price" issue. Is $375 plus $17 shipping FAIR? I guess you can leave to a jury if you proceed and get charged. But here is how I would argue it: first, it has to be a fair price for an unused replacement, PBS is selling DVDs, not VHS replacements. Second, PBS might not be selling what you have. How many episodes do you have? If you have the first six, then you have "Eyes on the Prize I." There was also an "Eyes on the Prize II," which is eight more episodes. The DVD set is 14 episodes.

You also need to look at (c)(2)... check the local libraries. If they have this series you may have a problem with the "not made available to the public" language. I will say this however: I am in a major market and while my library systems have these tapes no one has the complete set; they have been lost or damaged (this is across 2 counties and 1 large metro area).

ALSO - what about (a)(2)(ii) - it is not an infringement of copyright for a library...to reproduce no more than one copy...if...the collections of the library...are... open to the public. You say this is a private school? This is a problem if it is not open to the public.

---

I would not rely on 108. I would use 107:

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies...for purposes such...teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright.

SO I SAY START COPYING!!!

*I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, so do not take it as such. You should consult a lawyer who a member of the bar in your area.

[jmkeuning]

http://www.movlic.com/k12/copyright/copyright.html

And, that link was extremely informative, thank you. Legally it looks like it's a no-go on making DVD-R backups of the VHS tapes we received. Darn!

That link is referring to the face-to-face exception found in Section 110: "the following are not infringements of copyright...performance or display of a work by instructors or pupils in the course of face-to-face teaching activities..."

This is referring to performance or display, not reproduction.

Again, I'm just reading the code here, it's not legal advice.

[nathanaa]

Wow, some great info here. Having read and re-read all your fine copyright quotes (jmkeuning) from the appropriate sources, it does look as if we would be able/allowed to make a back-up copy of the Eyes documentary.

There are only 6 tapes, so it must be the Eyes on the Prize I set only. I'll have to check to see if the library system around here has the Eyes II set, then maybe the teachers could do a total showing sometime. Heck, *I'd* be interested in going to watch it!

Anyway, time for me to flip-flop again. Looks like I'll be making the DVD back-up after all. I think I'll print-off this entire thread and keep it with the DVDs for future reference, in case it becomes an issue. So if anyone has anything else to input, throw it on out here - thanks again!