Copying LP Albums to Disc

[jmsrickland]

I have a standalone DVD/CD recorder, an old record turntable, and the amplifier that came with the turntable.

I want to copy the LP records to discs but I ran into this problem:

The amplifier has a output that goes directly to the speakers while the DVD/CD recorder only has the Red/White audio input plugs. I though that if I simply took an audio cable and cut one end to expose the two wires and pluged red/white end into the DVD/CD and the cut end into the amplifier this would allow me to record the LP to a disc. But that doesn't work.

What then do I need to acomplish this?

[SingSing]

You need to convert speaker output to line level. See :
http://www.epanorama.net/circuits/speaker_to_line.html

[wulf109]

If your "amplifier" has only speaker outputs it's probably not an amplifier. Sounds like you have a power amplifier. Does it have RCA input jacks? Does it have RCA output jacks?

[Cornucopia]

The proper terms are "pre-amplifier" (for bringing the miniscule phonograph level up to line level) and "power amplifier" or just plain "amplifier" (for bringing line level up to speaker level).

BTW, if one wants to go from A --> C, you don't go A -->D-->C. ESPECIALLY with analog audio levels. So it doesn't make sense to use an amplifier to bring the level up too much, and then an attennuator to bring the level back down. If you don't have optimal gain, you'll end up with either extra/excess distortion or extra/excess noise level.

Get a pre-amplifier from RadioShack or something. Use to cost ~$50.
Hook it up between your phonograph and your sound card. Outputs from it will be line level RCA (which you can get a simple adapter cable to stereo miniphono if you need it).

Of course, you should check your model of phonograph, because some recent cheapo brands actually have a preamplifier built in, so it would already be at line level, and any further amplification would be bad.

Scott

[trossin]

It is possible to use speaker outputs into line in jacks if you set the volume correctly. I'm sure someone will correct me on this but I think line in jacks are maxed out around 2V peak-to-peak and present the driving source with either a 1K or 10K Ohm load.

Speakers are usually 8 Ohms but headphones are 100 to 1K Ohm and amplifiers usually have no trouble driving either. Volume is controlled by increasing/decreasing power to the load which is usually done by raising/lowering the voltage applied to the speaker. Most amplifier output stages have a fixed gain so this voltage is controlled by controlling the input with a resistor ladder (pot or digital pot).

The bottom line is that if you set the volume control correctly you will get the speaker output voltage to peak out around 2V and the amplifier should be happy driving the lighter load that a line-in jack presents. You should be able to send the signal to your sound card and use the Window volume control (Line in page) to see if you are too loud or too soft. Once you have it set correctly, hook it up to your stand-alone player and it should just work.

I have done a variation of this in the past. I built a power amp (fixed gain amplifier [Dynaco ST150]) as a kit and did not have enough paper route money for the pre-amp (Dynaco PAT-5) at the time so I drove the power amp with my old amp speaker outputs and it sounded just fine. This was back in 1976 two years before I built my first computer based on a magazine article using a CDP1802CD microprocessor from RCA!

[jagabo]

You can get an attenuating cable for a few dollars.

[Cornucopia]

Numbers are off a little:

Line-level audio is typically 300 mV, able to drive an impedance of 10,000 ohms (10 kΩ) or more.

The semi-official definition of line level is:

Full scale (0 dB on the VU meter) =

+1.8 dBV = +4 dBu = 1.23 V rms = 1.74 V peak = 3.5 V peak-to-peak
for professional equipment;

-10 dBV = -7.8 dBu = 0.32 V rms = 0.45 V peak = 0.9 V peak-to-peak
for consumer equipment.

The actual rated output of consumer gear is often even lower, typically 0.2 V rms.
The impedance (number of ohms) varies. It's OK to connect a lower impedance output to a higher impedance input; in fact, that's how it's normally done.

Normally, Sound Blaster products accommodate 3.5 V rms at their inputs, and if a Sound Blaster will be connected to a consumer-level output, the input level will need to be turned all the way up, more than 10 dB above mid-scale.

from http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/audio/digitizing/index.html#levels

otherwise, it will probably work IN A PINCH. But I really don't recommend that if you want the best audio.

Scott

[jmsrickland]

The unit is a Sony Intergrated Stero Amplifier TA-AX301. It is part of a Sony Stero Component set which came with turntable, Tape Deck, AM/FM Stereo, CD Player and the amp. I called it an amplifier because it says Amplifier (not pre-amp) on the front panel. It has RCA audio input jacks where the turntable plugs into. It is also the source of power to the turntable. The only output of this unit are the speaker wires that go to the left and right external speakers. It has no RCA audio out.

The DVD/CD recorder only has the RCA audio (in addition to the video) input and output jacks.

So, I took an extra RCA audio cable and cut one end of it so as to expose the bare leads. Each color side has a lead and a ground wire. I took the speaker wires and inserted one end into to output of the amplifier but instead of putting the other end into the speaker I twisted the cut ends of the RCA audio cables around the bare wires of the speaker cable. I got some audio going to the DVD/CD recorder but it was terrible. Alot of noise, etc so the total output of the music was un-listenable.

[MOVIEGEEK]

Call me an idiot but why don't you connect the turntable RCA plugs to the DVD/CD recorder?
Hopefully the turntable is outputting line level but if it's outputting phono level then you need an RIAA EQ preamp:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=245-035

This will convert speaker to line level:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=302-307

[jmsrickland]

Call me an idiot but why don't you connect the turntable RCA plugs to the DVD/CD recorder?

Actally that was the very first thing I tried and got absolutely no recorded sound at all.

[lacywest]

Back in the days when I had Dual turntables ... I would use Shure V 15 II ... phono cartridges and they are described as ... Magnetic Phono cartridges ... moving coil and so forth.

Magnetic cartridges were what most people used ... and they put out a very small voltage and to use them ... a person needed a Receiver or an Integrated amplifier with a magnetic phono cartridge input.

Going back years before Magnetic cartridges ... the cartridges were called Ceramic cartridges and those type did put out a higher voltage but they also put more wear and tear on the grooves of a person's favorite LP or 45 phonograph disk.

Magnetic Cartridges used/uses very delicate cartridge needles that could be broken very easily by just trying to wipe the dust off the needle with your finger tip. I used a small paint brush ... dipped in alcohol ... to wipe the needle.

You will need a preamplifier designed to boost the signal if the turntable is using a magnetic ... needle/cartridge. Shouldn't be hard to find one ... online somewhere.

http://www.garage-a-records.com/cart.html

http://www.kenselectronics.com/lists/phono.htm#Preamp

Phono Preamp: PRE600 Stereo Phono Preamp dub records to CD's via Sound Card in Computer 29,98

http://www.needledoctor.com/s.nl/it.A/id.1675/.f?sc=2&category=401

LKG-PRE600 Moving Magnet Phono Preamplifier

Solid State Moving Magnet Stereo Phono Preamplifier ... Price $30 Bucks

Check this webpage >>>

http://www.amazon.com/Pfantone-PRE600-Computer-Phono-Preamp/dp/B000928M4U/ref=sr_11_1/...917661?ie=UTF8

Here is another method ...

http://www.audiograbber.com-us.net

Audiograbber is a beautiful piece of software that grabs digital audio from cd's. It copies the audio digitally-not through the soundcard-which enables you to make perfect copies of the originals. It can even perform a test to see that the copies really are perfect. Audiograbber can also automatically normalize the music, delete silence from the start and/or end of tracks, and send them to a variety or external MP3 encoders, such as Fraunhofers L3enc, or even use some MP3/WMA encoders internally for automatic creation of MP3's. Audiograbber can download and upload disc info from freedb, an Internet compact disc database. You can even record your vinyl LP's or cassette tapes with Audiograbber and make wav's or MP3's of them. There are a lot more functions in Audiograbber, but to put it simply: Audiograbber has the most features one can wish from such a program!

addon ... you will need the Mp3 codec ... Fraunhofers L3enc Mp3 codec ... pro version to convert mp3 files with 44Khz bandwidth ... and a program like Sound Forge or Cool Edit Pro ... to tweak the mp3 made with Audiograbber.

Send me a PM message for more info ...

[Cornucopia]

to expand on what lacywest said, phono cartridges come in 3 types:

1. Ceramic -- ~Line Level, very bad quality
2. Moving Magnet -- ~Phono Level, good to excellent quality, needs pre-amplifier to raise to line level (this is the standard kind of cartridge)
3. Moving Coil -- Sub-phono level, very good to excellent quality, needs PRE-pre-amplifier to raise to phono level, and then standard pre-amplifier to raise to line level. Costlier, but probably worth it if you're an audiophile.

Dude, I don't see any (good) way getting around just buying a pre-amp. A number of people have suggested this to you now... It ought to be possible for you to hook up the power of the turntable to the supplied amplifier without hooking up the RCA cables, right? So just re-route them to the pre-amp that you'll buy and then route the pre-amps output cables to your Computer soundcard or DVD/CD recorder inputs.

Scott

[jmsrickland]

Well I am ally lost for words now. I borrowed an amplifier from a neighbor that has RCA IN and RCA OUT. OK, I got power to the turntable and I pluged the audio-out of the turntable into the audio-in of the borrowed amplifier and I connected the audio-out of the amplifier to the audio-in of the DVD/CD recorder. Nothing. No sound at all. I know the audio-in of the DVD/CD recorder works because I was able to get sound to it on a previous experiment and I know the audio-in of the amplifier is good because I can wire it's speakers output to my external speakers and I get excellent sound quality. There is just no sound getting into the DVD/CD recorder. The connection are correct and I have it set on the correct audio channel that I am using. It doesn't have a PHONO IN/OUT so I used one of the Video channels but only the audio in/out plugs. Soound gets to the speakers but not to the recorder. Strange?????

[jagabo]

You need an amp with a phono input. The output from a phono cartridge is way too low (millivolts) for a line level input (~ 1 volt).

[Cornucopia]

Like we've been saying..."you need to get a pre-amp"!

Modern amps (HomeTheatre era, 1997 or newer) DON'T have 'em.

Scott

[SingSing]

Which (make and model) DVD recorder you have ?

Most DVD recorders can play DVD and CD, but only record to DVD.

[jmsrickland]

Which (make and model) DVD recorder you have ?

Most DVD recorders can play DVD and CD, but only record to DVD.

OK, the amplifiier that I borrowed is a Sony STR-DE698 FM Stereo/FM-AM Receiver Amplifier which has alot of RCA IN/OUT ports but none are a phono but the guy I borrowed it from said it wouldn't matter as long as I used the same IN/OUT of the same channel so I used Video-1 Channel.

The DVD recorder is a Panasonic ES15. OK, I just realized it does not record CD, only DVD but I know I can record audio on a DVD disc. I never tried to record CD before and I just assumed it would but I was only trying to get sound into it and then I was going to record the sound on a CD (so I thought) but now on a DVD disc instead. But sound is sound, right.

[SingSing]

Like we've been saying..."you need to get a pre-amp"!

Modern amps (HomeTheatre era, 1997 or newer) DON'T have 'em.

You need an amp with a phono input.

The output from a phono cartridge is way too low (millivolts) for a line level input (~ 1 volt).

Signal level provided by your setup = 5/1000 = 1/200

[MOVIEGEEK]

The DVD recorder is a Panasonic ES15. OK, I just realized it does not record CD, only DVD but I know I can record audio on a DVD disc. I never tried to record CD before and I just assumed it would but I was only trying to get sound into it and then I was going to record the sound on a CD (so I thought) but now on a DVD disc instead. But sound is sound, right.

Ah noVD uses 48KHz AC3,MP2 or LPCM...CD uses 44.1KHz PCM.
You could record to a DVD and convert the audio to PCM but I recommend hooking the turntable(with preamp) to your PC soundcard line-in.

[BobK]

I just came across this- a turntable designed to plug directly into a USB port.

It might not be worth $130 to people that already have everything they need. But when I converted all my old LPs to CD I had to buy a new turntable (about $70). I managed to borrow a pre-amp, but I probably would have bought this if it had been available 4 years ago.

http://www.cyberguys.com/templates/searchdetail.asp?productID=12071&sk=EC6Q1526

[jagabo]

a Sony STR-DE698 FM Stereo/FM-AM Receiver Amplifier which has alot of RCA IN/OUT ports but none are a phono but the guy I borrowed it from said it wouldn't matter

He was wrong. What's going to come out of the line level out is going to be the same thing that's going into the line level in -- a tiny little millivolt signal. If you crank the volume up really loud you might hear a tiny little sound amidst all the noise. And if you do it will be very tinny because you don't have the RIAA rolloff required to equalize the audio from the phono cartridge.

You absolutely must use a stand alone phono pre-amp, or an integrated amp/receiver with a built it phono pre-amp.

If you want to go the cheap route try an attenuating cable from your amp's speaker output (or headphone output) to your audio recording device. That may step the level down far enough for the line-in:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103841

Record from a line-level output with our 6.56-foot attenuating dubbing cord. It connects the earphone jack from a radio, cassette or CD player to a recorder's input or mic jack via 1/8" phone plugs on each end.

[Zukeeper]

I think that the solution to your problem isn't difficult. Does the cassette deck connect to the amp with RCA plugs? If it does, then disconnect the cassette deck from the Tape Out (or Rec Out) jacks and plug the Audio In from the DVD recorder into the Tape Out jacks on the amp. In other words, you should have a cable running from the Tape Out jacks of the amp to the Audio In jacks on the DVD recorder.

[jagabo]

then disconnect the cassette deck from the Tape Out (or Rec Out) jacks and plug the Audio In from the DVD recorder into the Tape Out jacks on the amp.

That should work! I assumed it was a single integrated unit but he did say "component set".

[MOVIEGEEK]

then disconnect the cassette deck from the Tape Out (or Rec Out) jacks and plug the Audio In from the DVD recorder into the Tape Out jacks on the amp.

That should work! I assumed it was a single integrated unit but he did say "component set".

But one problem remains:he has a DVD recorder...not a CD recorder.

[olyteddy]

FWIW, you can, in a pinch, plug a magnetic phono cartridge into a mic input and apply the RIAA curve in software, such as Audacity. It is one of their equalizer presets.

[lacywest]

http://www.radioshack.com/search/index.jsp?kwCatId=&kw=preamp&origkw=PREAMP

Magnetic Cartridge Stereo Preamp
Model: 42-2825 | Catalog #: 42-2825 $24.99

Amplify audio fast and easy with this magnetic cartridge stereo preamp.

Just go down to Radio Shack and see if they have a Phono preamp ... 30 bucks and hook it up to your turntable and to the computer soundcard.

And then use audio editing software that can be found on the Internet.

You will ... should hear your turntable playing your records ... through your computer sound system.

If you like what you hear ... keep the preamp ... if you don't ... return it ... keep the reciept.

http://www.shopjubilee.net/itm00254.htm

These are the remains of a lot of merchandise we purchased from Tandy... These items have been opened... we have classifed these as used / demo units. The Radio Shack Stereo Pre-Amplifier (no. 42-2111) lets you easily connect a turntable with a magnetic stereo phono cartridge or passive microphones to amplifiers. Its silicon transistors provide low noise and a stable RIAA compensated circuit. The pre-amplifier is housed in a small, sturdy, metal case and operates from a single 9-volt battery

Specifications:

Input Impedance: 50 Kohms

Output Impedance: 50 Kohms

Amplitude Gain: 34 dB

Maximum Input: 38mV

Output Level: 1.8 V RMS

Frequency Response: 30 Hz. To 20 KHz.

S/N Ratio: 50 dB

Crosstalk: 50 dB

Power Source: 9 VDC

Maximum Input: 38mV

Dimenstions: 85 x 27 x 58 mm



Reference: E-RSSTPREAMP

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Manufactured by: Radio Shack

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.radioshack.com/sm-fully-automatic-belt-drive-turntable-w-pre-amp--pi-2102607.html

[jmsrickland]

Will someone smack me up side my head? t was working all the time I just didn't know it! I can't believe that I didn't set the correct input source on the DVD recorder. I did on the amplifier but never entered my mind to also change the source on the recorder.

BTW: You do not need a preamp to do this. This amplifier does not have a preamp inside it. I have the phono turntable pluged into the AUX input and the output is AUX out into the VID 1 input of the recorder. I set the amplifier input source to AUX but never set the recorder input source to VID 1.

[jagabo]

Some turntables have have a built-in preamp.

[jmsrickland]

Perhaps but not this turntable. It's a plastic case with only a turntable and a little motor to turn it. Nothing else (except the needle).

[jagabo]

A phono preamp also performs RIAA equalization:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization