Huffy Wha......??? please helpppp

[vidnewbie]

Hi there,

I sucessfully burned my first home made music video on a disc (vcd). I have a few questions, would really appreciate some help.

This is what I did so far:

I made a 3 minute movie using pinnacle studios from my DV camcorder. I saved it as a mpeg and used TMPGEnc to convert it to vcd format. I then used NERO to burn it on a disc.

Question:

The first thing i noticed about the video is the poor resolution quality. I also notice that although i saved the video at a 720 X 480 screen, when TMPGEnc converts it to vcd format, it becomes 1/3 of its file size at 352 X 240. Is this the problem, that the window is stretched - causing the poor resolution? What can i do to save the movie at best quality?how can i improve on the quality?


ok. After spending 2 hours on the forum, i learn about this huffyuv thingy as a lossless capture source. All my video material has already been shot and stored in my DV cam. Now, i have edited the material using pinnacle ( background music, scenes edit etc.)


Does this mean, that i have to RE-Do everything?? Starting from capturing the video material from DV to pc using huffyuv, then editing it again using pinnacle and then burning it using NERO?


On my pc, the editing final video looks good, very clear - just like when i plug my DV to the TV. The problem is when i save it as MPEG and play it on a vcd player - looks very pixelated. room full of squares.



sorry for being long windered - just had to explain everything i can.


thanks.

[Thorn]

I've had quality problems with dv before, so here are some thoughts:

1. For $15 you can get a DV card and 'capture' losslessly from the DV tape (this is even better than Huffyuv because you don't even have to convert to analog before converting back to digital -- there is no convertion just copy). This makes it easier to capture (and you can even send your edited movies back out to tape).

2. Huffyuv has much better video quality than most other capture codecs or mpeg capture. However, it's only one part of the process and might not be the weak link.

You say the video looks great when you capture... does it still look good on the computer after encoding with TMPGenc, or is that when all the blockiness comes from? If it still looks good then but looks like crap after burning be careful that Nero isn't re-encoding the video (it's encoder isn't so good). If the problem first shows up on your DVD player try a different one... some DVD players suck (bad decoder chip, might only suck for VCD).

Also note that VCD IS limited in what it can do. I tried filtering some of my DV footage to get rid of noise, but there was an upper threshold so I switched to DVD and the problems are mostly gone DVD has the extra bandwith and resolution to make all the noise not cause problems. Remember that noise is amplified when you encode to lower bitrates. You can't always see the noise in the original source, but the encoder can...

Oh, take a look at SVCD. Resolution is a bit higher, but bandwidth can be much higher. Check the DVD player link to see if your player can play SVCDs.

I'm sure there's a guide around here for reducing blockiness in the video in TMPGenc (if that's where it's happening), and others can help you there more than I.

[vidnewbie]

thanks. thanks.thanks.!

I need to mention that i capture from DV directly to my Sony PC, which comes ith a built-in firewire ( IEEE) connection.

Even after using TMPGEnc, the final mpeg comes out real good, its only when i burn it with nero to a disc - thats when the resolution deteriorates. Pretty sure its not the dvd player, its barely 2 months old - top of the line from best buy.

Could it be that the mpeg is only 342 X 240 - that it gets stretched on the tv and looks so bad ? Is there a way to create a mpeg that is bigger than 340 resolution?

[D_Knife]

Could it be that the mpeg is only 342 X 240 - that it gets stretched on the tv and looks so bad ? Is there a way to create a mpeg that is bigger than 340 resolution?

Sure but VCD is only 352x240 otherwise you can go to SVCD or the newish CVD formats. As Thorn sauggested try SVCD first - it's a standard and most players will work fine.

[Thorn]

Wait... you're not watching this on a 60 inch bigscreen are you? That would make the blockiness apparent too

Some more notes: I assume you're watching the video in fullscreen mode on your computer before burning and like the quality, but it looks different on the TV? I'd think the images should look very similar on your TV as the monitor in full screen resolution -- I notice problems more on my computer because I'm scruntinizing it from 6 inches away...

While VCD resolution is rather low by DVD standards, it's actually on par with VHS. I've seen some pretty good vcd encodes, but they're never perfect. The blockiness is (I think) more likely to be caused by the encoding algorithm/settings/bitrate than the resolution itself. You don't notice pixels from one block (except at 6 inches maybe) but you do notice that the image as a whole is less sharp.

I had another thought - to ensure that the cd holds the same video quality that you saw before you burned, just watch the vcd on your computer. (you can copy the dat file off or convert it back to mpeg if you need with freeware tools). That'll ensure that nero isn't re-encoding behind your back.

Another side note: if you can minimize the number of times you re-encode it from the original DV material, you'll keep the quality from degrading. There are ways to encode directly from DV to tmpgenc or to frameserve the file to tmpgenc (see user guides around here).

One more thing to try, download a VCD sample image from here - it could help show you what quality others have gotten.

BTW home video requires a lot of attention because there is more movement and sometimes more noise than commercial video footage (ever notice how still movie cameras seem to be? My home footage is a little more turbulent ). Higher bitrate formats like SVCD or DVD help with quality. Also, don't throw out your dv tapes if the footage is important, you might want to re-encode to DVD format or something else later.

[vidnewbie]

Ok. I finally got rid of most of the blocks - by playing with the settings in TMPGEnc and Nero . Here are my final questions :

1. My biggest question is - Can I, or will I ever be able to produce the same quality on a VCD disc as when i plug the dv camcorder directly to the TV for playback? Maybe im trying to ge ttoo much out of VCD

2. The quality of my 3 minute music video is almost the "same" as what you get when you watch one of those VCD movies on disc ( 2 discs). Here's an idea : when i capture from dv to pc( IEEE), it saves in an AVI format ( full dv quality).

Is there a way to capture at the highest quality ( or resolution) so when i actually edit and burn, it doesnt compromise quality? If so, what software is recommended?



thanks for the input.

[tonyp12]

Getting DV camcorder quility is not gone happaned
when you burn to a CD-R.
(unless you have one of very few DVD players that can play MiniDVD)

As you are creating a very short music video,
you could try the highest bitrate you DVD player can handle.
http://www.vcdhelp.com/dvdplayers.php

And burn XVCD and XSVCD, but maybe will not play in a friends dvd player.

A 480x480pixel at 5000kbps bitrate, I'm pretty sure it will look nice.

If the source is in DV, create a XSVCD with interlace (mpeg2)

[mattjh]

Would you mind listing what you changed in TMPGEnc and Nero to get the higher quality?

[DJRumpy]

If you must go with the VCD standard, I would suggest the following settings:

Slowest setting for Motion Search Precision ( Highest Quality )
Try using 2-Pass VBR to maximize motion detection, and scene changes:
min = 500 to 1000 play with it for best result
avg = 1000
max = 1150

On the Quantize Matrix tab:
Make sure 'No Motion Search' is unchecked
Select 'Soften Block Noise' - will blur your video a bit while helping the blockies

You will not get anywhere near the quality of your source material using VCD (352x240). There is too much of a limit to the max bitrate.

Look to see if your DVD Player supports CVD, or SVCD ( http://www.vcdhelp.com/dvdplayers.php ). Both of those formats offer more than twice the bitrate of VCD, and higher resolutions.

[tonyp12]

Would you mind listing what you changed in TMPGEnc and Nero to get the higher quality?

To create a XSVCD
(a CD that is not standard and may not play in all DVD players)

Load a regular SVCD templete, click load, select extra/unlock.

Change the bitrate to 5000 and
motion search: highest quility.
Save this new templet as "xsvcd".

Will only fit around 20minutes on a 80minute CDR.

In Nero select non-standard and
do not let it convert it back to complaince.

[DJRumpy]

I wouldn't suggest that route. Most players do not support xSVCD, or xVCD for that matter. Try using a standard format first. Verify if your player is listed as compatible ( http://www.vcdhelp.com/dvdplayers.php ). If it's not, see if it will accept CD-RW. This way you don't make a coaster if your burned video doesn't work. Try SVCD, and/or CVD (CVD will let you easily convert to DVD later on if you need to, without re-encoding the video).

<Opinion>
<Flames = False>
xSVCD seems to me to be a waste of space on a CD-R. Any properly done SVCD should have no bitnoise, except in the most extreme motion scenes, and even then, if the motion is moving that fast, you probably won't notice it.
</Flames>
<End Opinion>

I watch SVCD all the time on a 57" Widescreen HDTV, and they look fine.
[/url]