Requesting Hi8 to PC Capture Recommendations for Windows 10

[VideoDoc]

I have a bunch of Hi8 video (family camcorder stuff) that I have finally decided to digitize. I have spent a week reviewing a lot of the info on this site. It all looks pretty overwhelming but I am willing to invest some time. I have decided to at least try the lossless capture route although I might end up going DV if it all gets too frustrating. My main concern is that a lot of the recommended equipment and software appear to be either discontinued, no longer updated or supported. I am most interested in hearing recommendations that are known to work with windows 10. I know that a lot of people still use and recommend the older windows versions, but I am just not interested in going that route. I am thinking of going with a USB stick like the Hauppauge 610 USB-Live 2. I am open to purchasing a TBC like the AVT-8710. My main concern is selecting the software that will work reliably with Windows 10. The popular choices like VirtualDub and the like have not been updated in several years. A google search of Windows 10 compatibility of lossless capture software yielded very little information. Is everyone really living in the past? I find it hard to believe that a good conversion cannot be obtained with modern equipment and up to date software. Advice anyone?

[JVRaines]

At least one user on this forum reports that VirtualDub works fine under Windows 10. It's a fallacy to assume that newer software must be better. Legacy video conversion is a specialty and there is little development of hardware and software to support it these days.

[johnmeyer]

For Hi8, there is virtually no advantage to using lossless. Try it yourself: capture using lossless and capture using DV and then compare the two.

Most software runs just fine in Windows 10, but you may have to run in compatibility mode. Also, you probably have downgrade rights to Windows 7. I just spoke today with someone who I told to downgrade from 10 to 7. He is a very happy person tonight. Also, I just bought a very high-end Lenovo X1 Carbon, and was able to purchase it with Windows 7.

Another possibility is Windows XP emulation mode. I have that on one of my Windows 7 computers.

I agree 100% with what JVRaines said: "It's a fallacy to assume that newer software must be better. " In fact, when it comes to Windows, I don't think there has been anything of any real importance added since Windows XP. Name one thing you can do now that you couldn't do ten years ago. Yes, some programs require the new O/S to run, but nothing runs faster, better, etc. Vista and Windows 8 were actually quite a bit worse than their predecessors. XP and 7 are what I run on everything. Windows 10 is probably OK, but it is pretty clear that Microsoft intends to eventually turn it into a pay as you go O/S, even though it is currently "free."

Finally, I don't think you need much additional hardware to transfer Hi8 if you have a Digital8 camcorder. Someone else will have to correct me on this, but I think all Digital8 camcorders included some sort of basic TBC, and therefore all you need to do is put the Hi8 cassette into the Digital8 camcorder, hook up a Firewire cable to your PC, and start capturing using a DV utility like Scenalyzer.

[VideoDoc]

At least one user on this forum reports that VirtualDub works fine under Windows 10. It's a fallacy to assume that newer software must be better. Legacy video conversion is a specialty and there is little development of hardware and software to support it these days.

Thank you for your reply. I will certainly try using Virtualdub with Windows 10 but I expect problems. If anyone else has any experience I would be very interested. I was not implying that newer software is better with regards to legacy video conversion. However, newer software does tend to be more compatible with newer operating systems like Windows 10 which is what I am after. I have toiled many times in the past with outdated software and it generally ends up wasting a lot of my time.

[VideoDoc]

For Hi8, there is virtually no advantage to using lossless. Try it yourself: capture using lossless and capture using DV and then compare the two.

Most software runs just fine in Windows 10, but you may have to run in compatibility mode. Also, you probably have downgrade rights to Windows 7. I just spoke today with someone who I told to downgrade from 10 to 7. He is a very happy person tonight. Also, I just bought a very high-end Lenovo X1 Carbon, and was able to purchase it with Windows 7.

Another possibility is Windows XP emulation mode. I have that on one of my Windows 7 computers.

I agree 100% with what JVRaines said: "It's a fallacy to assume that newer software must be better. " In fact, when it comes to Windows, I don't think there has been anything of any real importance added since Windows XP. Name one thing you can do now that you couldn't do ten years ago. Yes, some programs require the new O/S to run, but nothing runs faster, better, etc. Vista and Windows 8 were actually quite a bit worse than their predecessors. XP and 7 are what I run on everything. Windows 10 is probably OK, but it is pretty clear that Microsoft intends to eventually turn it into a pay as you go O/S, even though it is currently "free."

Finally, I don't think you need much additional hardware to transfer Hi8 if you have a Digital8 camcorder. Someone else will have to correct me on this, but I think all Digital8 camcorders included some sort of basic TBC, and therefore all you need to do is put the Hi8 cassette into the Digital8 camcorder, hook up a Firewire cable to your PC, and start capturing using a DV utility like Scenalyzer.

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate that I might not see any difference using lossless but I would like to at least see for myself.
Not sure if Windows 10 offers Windows XP emulation. I will look into that.
Yes, using a Digital8 camcorder with pass through will work. I have one and it actually does a better job than a Canopus box I have. Unfortunately the output is still only DV AVI. Remember, I am wanting to try lossless.

[usually_quiet]

The problem is that you are a bit late getting started with your project. More people were digitizing analog tapes 10 or more years ago, with capture hardware designed with that purpose in mind using older versions of the same software that you are worried about using, and have long since finished converting their recordings. The demand for software and hardware to perform the same task today isn't strong enough to further continued software development for analog tape capture. The focus today is on video game capture and HD video capture from digital sources.

As already stated, most programs that worked with Windows 7 still work with Windows 10. However, Windows 10 offers program compatibility modes for software that runs under older Windows versions, but not Windows 10. http://superuser.com/questions/133746/how-does-the-compatibility-mode-in-windows-work

XP mode for Windows 7 Professional, Enterprise, or Ultimate ran XP in a virtual machine. Using a program with a third-party virtual machine running an older windows OS may work if no compatibility mode allows it to run properly.

[JVRaines]

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate that I might not see any difference using lossless but I would like to at least see for myself. Not sure if Windows 10 offers Windows XP emulation. I will look into that. Yes, using a Digital8 camcorder with pass through will work. I have one and it actually does a better job than a Canopus box I have. Unfortunately the output is still only DV AVI. Remember, I am wanting to try lossless.

It's a matter of taste and disk capacity. Uncompressed video takes 5 times as much space as DV. Some people dislike the look of DV's 4:1:1 chroma subsampling and there can be problems with fine diagonal patterns, such as images of chain-link fencing.

Beware of Sony camcorders that do A/D conversion to DV. I know of at least two models that mistakenly add NTSC setup to the digital output, which means you get dark grays instead of black.

[ackboo]

There is one drawback to using a Digital8 camcorder. The edge colour issue :
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/354425-Hi8-capture-using-Digital8-camcorder-Edge-color-issues
Apart from that this is the preferred method for its general quality and ease of use. Combined with QTGMC (denoise and deinterlace) you get very good quality files. And yes most Digital8 camcorders capable of digitizing hi8 have a built in TBC.

One advantage of going the lossless capture route is that what you will learn will be applicable to any analog tapes.

[VideoDoc]

[/QUOTE]It's a matter of taste and disk capacity. Uncompressed video takes 5 times as much space as DV. Some people dislike the look of DV's 4:1:1 chroma subsampling and there can be problems with fine diagonal patterns, such as images of chain-link fencing.

Beware of Sony camcorders that do A/D conversion to DV. I know of at least two models that mistakenly add NTSC setup to the digital output, which means you get dark grays instead of black.[/QUOTE]


I'm ok with large files. Disk space is relatively cheap. With regards to taste, I certainly am not completely satisfied with the DV AVI approach although the results are not what I would call bad. My Digital8 camcorder is in fact a Sony (DCR-TRV38) but, in my opinion, it still produces a better DV AVI pass through output than my old Canopus ADVC-100. Neither one is as good as the output I get when viewing through my original Hi8 camcorder which is a Sony CCD-TRV32. This is what has caused me to investigate the lossless capture approach. I would like to see for myself if I can approach the quality of the original analog signal. It does bring up the question of whether one of the newer Canopus devices would do better than my Sony Digital8. From what I have read on this and other forums, I doubt it.

[VideoDoc]

The problem is that you are a bit late getting started with your project. More people were digitizing analog tapes 10 or more years ago, with capture hardware designed with that purpose in mind using older versions of the same software that you are worried about using, and have long since finished converting their recordings. The demand for software and hardware to perform the same task today isn't strong enough to further continued software development for analog tape capture. The focus today is on video game capture and HD video capture from digital sources.

As already stated, most programs that worked with Windows 7 still work with Windows 10. However, Windows 10 offers program compatibility modes for software that runs under older Windows versions, but not Windows 10. http://superuser.com/questions/133746/how-does-the-compatibility-mode-in-windows-work

XP mode for Windows 7 Professional, Enterprise, or Ultimate ran XP in a virtual machine. Using a program with a third-party virtual machine running an older windows OS may work if no compatibility mode allows it to run properly.

Yes, I realize I am late to this party as my wife has constantly reminded me over the past few years. She will certainly appreciate your observation.
I will certainly look into Windows compatibility mode. I am not familiar with it but it could prove useful in more ways than this project. Thank you very much for the suggestion

[VideoDoc]

There is one drawback to using a Digital8 camcorder. The edge colour issue :
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/354425-Hi8-capture-using-Digital8-camcorder-Edge-color-issues
Apart from that this is the preferred method for its general quality and ease of use. Combined with QTGMC (denoise and deinterlace) you get very good quality files. And yes most Digital8 camcorders capable of digitizing hi8 have a built in TBC.

One advantage of going the lossless capture route is that what you will learn will be applicable to any analog tapes.

Yes, I too have reached the conclusion that passing through my Digital8 camcorder produces pretty good output. But, it still is not as good as the original analog. If I can't come up with a workable modern lossless capture workflow, this is probably the route I will end up going.

[Brad]

Yes, I realize I am late to this party as my wife has constantly reminded me over the past few years. She will certainly appreciate your observation.

Haha.

Uncompressed video takes 5 times as much space as DV.

Sure, but who actually uses uncompressed? Lossless "only" takes about 2.3 times as much space as DV.

For Hi8, there is virtually no advantage to using lossless. Try it yourself: capture using lossless and capture using DV and then compare the two.

I noted a surprising level of compression artifacts when I did this with a Digital8 camcorder last week. Still trying to find a scene I feel comfortable sharing, to show the difference.

[andrasz]

It might be too late for the original post, but there is so little useful information out there on the web that others might stumble in here and find my ramblings and experience useful:

I have an old but still fully functional Sony DCR-TV8000E (which is Digital 8 but will also read and convert Hi8, like the dozens of sister models) with about a hundred hours worth of tapes. Back in the stone age I did not have the storage capacity to save everything in full resolution AVI, so have backed up (almost) everything in lower quality WMV. With cheap storage now widely available, thought it was time to make a full backup of everything and get rid of the bulky tapes.

The old IBM laptop I used with the built-in firewire connection gave up its last breath a year ago, no problem I thought, there must be an USB driver out there to run my legacy camcorder. The lesson only cost me $2 including postage from a Hong Kong store to learn the obvious, the firewire to USB cables are only made for gullibles like me who buy first, read the instructions later. OK, that was a fairly cheap lesson, so step 2 was to read all about the post XP problems everyone was having. It soon emerged that the cheapest and most obvious solution would be to buy an old but still serviceable laptop with a working IEEE 1394 port, and all should work like it used to 10 years ago. Yeah, right...

The laptop was easy, got a good condition Fuijitsu S6120D with XP SP3 and a one month guarantee for $50, all appeared set to go. When I plugged in the camcorder to the firewire port, it instantly recognised it as a Sony AD/V device. Everything looked good, until I opened Movie Maker to start the conversion. It became very sluggish after starting the conversion dialogue, and froze altogether after making the selection on the third screen (entire tape/scenes...). After several resets and cold starts it emerged that the problem is consistent. After a couple of hours spent researching I managed to download the legacy 2.00.3 of PlayMemories. Being the proprietary Sony software, I was convinced I had the solution. After a quick installation I clicked on 'select device' and ... it froze. After several attempts and waiting for 15 minutes, I finally got the message: device is not recognized. So much for Sony...

Back to the drawing board (or rather google). I re-installed Windows XP (SP 2) from an original Microsoft boot disc, installed SP3 (also from a Microsoft CD) and the necessary drivers, to make sure no fresher driver updates caused the problem (my old IBM had the same config and it worked...). This had no effect, so I re-installed all the legacy drivers related to the video and audio controllers to the first release, again with no effect. Have tried out several third party video capture software, most produced the same freezing as Movie Maker. Finally after a complete wasted day I stumbled upon AMCap, which could still not render the video, but at least it recognised the camera and could work the controls (starting, stopping, rewind, etc.) so I finally had the confirmation that the laptop and the camera are actually communicating. I was still convinced that it was some driver issue, but was completely frustrated by not finding anything relevant in any technical forums. Finally on some long forgotten obscure forum someone mentioned in 2003 Scenalyzer Live. I soon found out that it is a long discontinued utility that was specifically designed for capturing Digital Video format. It is no longer maintained and supported, but the last build is available for download on their website with a valid product key. I installed it and BINGO, it immediately displayed the preview and played all content. It only took about 36 hours, but now the combination is merrily chugging along at 178 megabytes a minute, at this pace another two weeks and all will be done. (Of course I will still have to transfer captured content from the tiny 80GB harddrive to a new 2TB USB drive after every 5 hours, but that is nothing compared to the effort of the past two days).

To sum up the conclusion: the easy solution to capturing video from all legacy D8/DV/Hi8 camcorders with IEEE 1394 connectors only is to buy a cheap legacy laptop with IEEE 1394 port, and instead of struggling with Movie Maker and others, just install ScenalyzerLive. (It has the added bonus of doing the conversion in scenes, so the output will be practically the same as a directory created with any modern still / video camera with each scene a separate file). It was designed for this job, and based on the experience of the past hour works flawlessly.

[usually_quiet]

There is probably no need to go back to XP to capture DV using FireWire. Some members here have reported the newest versions of WinDV and ScenalyzerLive work using Windows 7 and 10.

Someone with a desktop can buy a $20-$30 Firewire card (PCI or PCI-e interface) to add a FireWire port to their PC if it doesn't have one.