60P Video...how deliver

[ron spencer]

I am in the midst of videoing sports for our local school. I can choose up to 1080i and 1080p 60 frames/sec.

I like how the 1080p looks, but I will not be able to deliver in bluray format as 1080p 60fps is not part of the BluRay standard.

So what are my choices really? I could shoot in 1080i, but can 1080p 60 frames/sec be converted into anything I can author to bluray....just want to go on the straightest path.

thanks

[aedipuss]

1080i60 is really only 30i. it's 60 1/2 frames/second. i'd use 720p60 as a delivery format for sports. if possible i'd also shoot everything in 720p60.

[KarMa]

if possible i'd also shoot everything in 720p60.

Even if you could shoot in 1080p 60fps.

[smrpix]

can 1080p 60 frames/sec be converted into anything I can author to bluray....just want to go on the straightest path.

The straightest path is to shoot 60i. The school will be satisfied, and you won't spend extra hours converting footage that will never be used again.

[ron spencer]

@smrpix

It is also for parents who want a nice memory from their kids events. I am thinking the 1080i is the best route, but all video cameras are going the 1080 60p route...it would be nice to use it. Note sure why such a feature is provided if there is no practical use for. I Suppose I could try the conversion to 720p60 to learn something.

Can sports be shot at 1080p 24 frames (23.976) effectively? Not sure the frame rate is high enough. Can it be done with success? 1080i, as stated by aedipuss is really 29.97 (30i) and it seems to capture action fine. I think broadcasts of sports are 1080i are they not? Perhaps I'll stick with that.

I may use the footage again...it will be converted to DNxHD.

[smrpix]

@ron spencer

In the early days of HD, ESPN chose to go with 720p/60 for motion and bandwidth reasons. More recent channels like NBCSN go with 1080i. You can now get 60p on YouTube, but that's going to be downgraded quality anyway.

In other words, the specs will keep changing, there's no single right answer.

As for DNxHD, the implication is you're using Avid? My workflow these days is not to store a DNxHD master at all, but simply keep a project with edited timelines that can be relinked to the original source media. It's then a simple matter to mixdown to a temp DNxHD (or now DNxHR) at whatever bitrate is best suited to my delivery needs and output/recompress from there. This cuts down substantially on storage requirements and assures that I'm always delivering the best quality available for the circumstances.

[ron spencer]

I'm still using a slower PC, which can be slow. DNxHD makes it easy in any NLE that can use directshow (Avid's codecs). Storage can be an issue for sure, but Ive got tons of drives. I only use it if I edit though...for example better fades, cutting, title's etc.

Hollywood seems to be able to shoot action at 24p....I think. Not sure how they do it.

Seems like 1080 60p is pretty much useless now.

[usually_quiet]

@smrpix

It is also for parents who want a nice memory from their kids events. I am thinking the 1080i is the best route, but all video cameras are going the 1080 60p route...it would be nice to use it. Note sure why such a feature is provided if there is no practical use for. I Suppose I could try the conversion to 720p60 to learn something.

Can sports be shot at 1080p 24 frames (23.976) effectively? Not sure the frame rate is high enough. Can it be done with success? 1080i, as stated by aedipuss is really 29.97 (30i) and it seems to capture action fine. I think broadcasts of sports are 1080i are they not? Perhaps I'll stick with that.

I may use the footage again...it will be converted to DNxHD.

As far as I'm concerned, an authored Blu-Ray disc is a perfectly acceptable way to deliver your video, but I suspect 1080p60 is taking over because of the number of people who now maintain all or part of their home video collection as data files. There is no need to worry about the limitations of the Blu-Ray spec if someone is satisfied with using data files to store their family videos.

You are correct. Broadcast sports are shot at 1080i or 720p. Apparently 1080i60/1080i30 was selected for broadcast TV use over 1080p30 in part because it offered smoother motion for televised sports.

[ron spencer]

I think 1080i will likely be the way to go. 1080p60 has the advantage of cleaner youtube or conversion to portable devices (no interlacing), but I guess I have to worth with what I've got. 1080i will permit conversion to everything.

I am curious, what would one do with 1080p60 files if they WANTED to make Bluray compatible files? what are the technical options? Not sure I would do it, but I'm sure somebody here has done it or knows the procedure.

[sneaker]

I am curious, what would one do with 1080p60 files if they WANTED to make Bluray compatible files? what are the technical options?

Either:
a.) convert to 720p60 or
b.) convert to 1080i30 (full temporal resolution)
c.) convert to 1080p30 encoded as 1080i30 (half the temporal resolution)

Personally, I would record in 1080p60 for my archives or e.g. YouTube uploads and convert that to 720p60 if BluRay compatibility is needed. (AVCHD 2.0 and UltraHD BluRay allow 1080p60, btw, so in the future you may have more options if you record and archive in 1080p60)

[SameSelf]

I think 1080i will likely be the way to go. 1080p60 has the advantage of cleaner youtube or conversion to portable devices (no interlacing), but I guess I have to worth with what I've got. 1080i will permit conversion to everything.

I am curious, what would one do with 1080p60 files if they WANTED to make Bluray compatible files? what are the technical options? Not sure I would do it, but I'm sure somebody here has done it or knows the procedure.

I shoot exclusively in 1080p30. I have successfully authored BDMVs. I downrez the 1080p30 to 1280x720p30 then double the frame rate to make it bluray compliant. If I could shoot in 1080p60, I would still downrez but avoid doubling the frame rate because I don't like using the fake-interlace flag for 1080p60 content. For me the workflow is quite simple.

1. Load the clip into Avisynth with a suitable rescaler (e.g. Lanczos, Spline36, etc.)
2. Encode using x264 cli using the 720p line here. x264 natively accepts avs scripts.

Don't be afraid to downrez. It is highly unlikely your camera has more than 700 lines of actual resolution anyway.

[_Al_]

He records sports events, and even if he does not, kids are present, lots of them perhaps, so movement and swarming is guaranteed.

What camcorder are you using? Most likely it does not have vertical 1080 resolution anyway, maybe something close to 800-900 so changing resolution to 1280x720 is really not a bad idea , and that format is highly flexible. Also! Downsizing 1080i videos are not handled well by all videoeditors. But progressive footage - no problem.

720p is highly versatile, for TV's , Blu-Rays, phones, tablets, streaming over wi-fi in LAN or web (lower bitrates as oppose 1080i), folks like to copy/paste links and give them others. For soccer events we use shutterfly.com here, or you can use something else. For original download there is some fee, not much (just you, who posts video, not who downloads). Or other site, Mediafire, where you post link and they can download original or play 420p, 720p, etc quality that website provides. If less than 10GB total, it is free.

Only who gets a link will play it, no private settings and nonsense needed. It is not public and advertisement intrusive/attention destructive like YouTube. People love links that you can watch or having original download button underneath for it as well. Even that is a form of delivery you ask for, comfortable and you can distribute en masse , so to speak, pardon my french.

[SameSelf]

I wasn't implying he should choose one or the other. I was simply answering the question, "What would one do with 1080p60 files if they WANTED to make Bluray compatible files?" since I didn't see anyone answering it just yet.

[smrpix]

FWIW, here's a quick (tested) Avisynth script for turning 60p into 30i. I'm sure others will chime in with other source and resizing options.

DirectShowSource("00061.mts")
AssumeFieldBased()
Lanczos4Resize(1920,540)
ComplementParity()
Weave()

[ron spencer]

I guess I should have stated by video camera...@_Al_ thanks for reminding me.

I use a Canon VIXIA HF G30. The attached shows you the options I have to record.

I am recording basketball, hockey, volleyball and in the better months soccer. The 1080i stuff is great, but as I would like to use the 60p somehow. I think I may switch for an event and see how it goes. Let me know what you suggestions may be for trying 108060p...I'm thinking the downsize may be useful. It will look good no matter what if encoded the right way.

Thanks for the comments so far!!

[ron spencer]

FWIW, here's a quick (tested) Avisynth script for turning 60p into 30i. I'm sure others will chime in with other source and resizing options.

DirectShowSource("00061.mts")
AssumeFieldBased()
Lanczos4Resize(1920,540)
ComplementParity()
Weave()

the 540 is half 1080...is this for the weaving?

[aedipuss]

each field of an interlaced video is only half height, scanned every other line. so it takes 2 fields put back together to make one frame. 30i has 60 individual pictures per second each with half an image of every other scan line.

[aedipuss]

oh and p.s. 24p is never ok for sports it turns moving objects into nasty slideshows.

[SameSelf]

Ahhh, decisions, decisions. Which is better? To turn 60p content into 30i content or to leave as 60p and downscale. While BD has generous bit rate support, its fps and DAR support sucks.

[ron spencer]

oh and p.s. 24p is never ok for sports it turns moving objects into nasty slideshows.

I figured that out pretty quick....I think for vacations it is ok, but for speedy stuff it is a hassle. I wonder hat the cutoff is for movement for when 24p is not good enough.

[smrpix]

FWIW, here's a quick (tested) Avisynth script for turning 60p into 30i. I'm sure others will chime in with other source and resizing options.

DirectShowSource("00061.mts")
AssumeFieldBased()
Lanczos4Resize(1920,540)
ComplementParity()
Weave()

the 540 is half 1080...is this for the weaving?

Yes. And the ComplementParity was arrived at by trial and error. (Loaded the clip into Avid and saw that the fields were reversed.)

[ron spencer]

Ahhh, decisions, decisions. Which is better? To turn 60p content into 30i content or to leave as 60p and downscale. While BD has generous bit rate support, its fps and DAR support sucks.

I agree. But I think if one is shooting fast moving stuff you have these options

1. 1080i, which everyone can use, but not as useful for mobile encoding stuff or YouTube or Bluray
2. 1080p 60fps, great for mobile stuff and YouTube, won't work for Bluray. But very useful for archiving and next generations will support
3. 1080p 60fps resize to 720p 60fps for Bluray distribution and mobile/YouTube. Most commercial encoders can do this, or feed into X264 with the only option the resize via spline, which I think is better for downsizing.

Am I missing anything?

[sneaker]

FWIW, here's a quick (tested) Avisynth script for turning 60p into 30i. I'm sure others will chime in with other source and resizing options.

DirectShowSource("00061.mts")
AssumeFieldBased()
Lanczos4Resize(1920,540)
ComplementParity()
Weave()

That's not how interlacing works. You need to create the top field from the even lines of one frame and the bottom field from the odd lines of the next frame. (or similar, depending on how you count and whether you want tff or bff)

[jagabo]

This is the correct procedure:

AssumeTFF() # or AssumeBFF(), whichever you want
# optionally resize here if necessary, eg. BilinearResize(720,480) for NTSD DVD
# some people like to blur vertically to reduce flicker, eg. Blur(0.0, 0.5)
SeparateFields()
SelectEvery(4,0,3)
Weave()

[aedipuss]

personal preference i suppose. if all my cameras could shoot 1080p60 at a decent bitrate of 50mbps all I-frame or more that's what i would record and save. if the bitrate was lower or a camera in the mix could only do 1080p30 i'd set them all to that.

i record mostly 1080p30 @90mbps all I-frame mp4 from canon dslr cameras and some HDV 30p mixed in currently. i will upgrade to 4k when the new large sensor canon dslr cams are released ~ maybe next year. i have way too much invested in good canon glass to switch to anything else.

[ron spencer]

So I gave a game a shot in 1080 60p. Now I'll try to deliver in 720p for bluray. I guess all I need is to resize in megui and that's it? Downsize to 1280x720 with same frame rate 60p and no other options and I'm good to go? I've got the command switches for bluray compatibility fine. Is it that easy?

[aedipuss]

give it a go and see how you like it. should work out fine.