Acceptable Bit Rate for YouTube Slideshow

[gus gusimio]

Hello all,

I just did a .wmv conversion to .mp4 using WinFF and Videotovideo (at default settings) and the resulting file sizes are quite different; however, when I watch either video on my PC, they both look OK. So, my question is: Are very low bitrates OK for YouTube slideshow videos?



FYI, I really can't see much of a difference.


Thanks,

gus

[videobruger]

If it's for Youtube why not just upload the .wmv file? It's going to be converted anyway.

[gus gusimio]

Hi videobruger,

The sizes of the .wmv videos I would be dealing with are around 684,000kb. So, when I converted one of those with WinFF, it reduced the size to 263,000kb. With that said, I thought it might be easier to view and download. Are my assumptions incorrect?

Thanks,

gus

[manono]

Are my assumptions incorrect?

Yes, incorrect. Everything gets reencoded by YouTube and at the same bitrates for the same resolutions. All things being equal, the higher the quality of the upload, the better the quality of the YouTube version. Again, whenever possible upload the highest quality version you have rather than reencoding it and lowering the quality and filesize.

I thought it might be easier to view and download.

Whatever versions you upload, the YouTube versions will all be equally easy to view and/or download.

[gus gusimio]

Hi manono,

Thanks for that thorough explanation. Hence forth, I will makeall my slideshows at 1080p (MP4) and just upload them.


gus

[manono]

Here's hoping videobruger agrees with what I wrote, since your question was for him.

[gus gusimio]

Also, thanks to videobruger for his response (which I found was the best way to go) so thanks to you both!

[pandy]

Hi manono,

Thanks for that thorough explanation. Hence forth, I will makeall my slideshows at 1080p (MP4) and just upload them.

Go for 4k version - up-sample, encode with ultrafast preset to save encoding time - YT will re-encode anyway everything but for 4k higher bitrate will be allocated and if this is static picture then quality also should be higher.

[gus gusimio]

Hi pandy,

Thanks for your recommendation; however, right now, I don't have anything that would convert my videos to 4K (at least I don't think I do). Anyway, if I did convert it to 4k, would that benefit everyone that doesn't have the capability to view on a 4k device? Wouldn't it be downsized to 1080p for most users (I hope I know what I'm talking about here)?

Cheers,

gus

[pandy]

Hi pandy,

Thanks for your recommendation; however, right now, I don't have anything that would convert my videos to 4K (at least I don't think I do). Anyway, if I did convert it to 4k, would that benefit everyone that doesn't have the capability to view on a 4k device? Wouldn't it be downsized to 1080p for most users (I hope I know what I'm talking about here)?

Cheers,

gus

There is plenty free tools capable to perform such operation - even ffmpeg (with simple script such as bellow):

@setlocal
@REM Where to Find ffmpeg
@set FFMPEG="disk:\ffmpeg folder\ffmpeg.exe"
@SET x264opts="qp=18:open_gop=0:pic_struct=1:aud=1:cabac=1:threads=auto:no_psnr=1:no_ssim=1:colorprim=bt709:transfer=bt709:colormatrix=bt709"
@%ffmpeg% -i %1 -c:a copy -c:v libx264 -preset veryfast -tune stillimage -profile:v high -x264opts %x264opts% -x264-params %x264opts% -vf "scale=3840:-8:sws_flags=spline,format=pix_fmts=yuv420p" -movflags faststart -y -f mp4 %1_YT4k.mp4

YT dynamically select resolution (depend on link quality) and codec (or allow to override auto and select manually desired resolution) don't worry - various resolutions down to sub-SD will be available and everyone will be capable to see video.

qp=18 is responsible for compression level - lower than 18can be set for even higher quality but 18 shall be virtually "lossless"
"disk:\ffmpeg folder\ffmpeg.exe" - set path to ffmpeg file - it can be any disk (partition) and folder where you located ffmpeg

this script is for speed and for pictures (see tune stillimage)

[gus gusimio]

Hi again pandy,

Your last recommendation was clear and well written; however, I think it is a bit too much for me to attempt at my advanced age. However, it appears that your batch file would attempt to change or create a new preset for ffmpeg (forgive me if I am wrong). Unfortunately, I have never used the command line inputs to ffmpeg and its too late for me to start now. Anyway, I would need something with a front-end to ffmpeg that would give me an option to tick and then it would invoke a similar script so I could test the output. Again, thanks for all you effort but I don't think you can teach this old dog a new trick at this point in my life.

Thanks again!

gus

[pandy]

Hi again pandy,

Your last recommendation was clear and well written; however, I think it is a bit too much for me to attempt at my advanced age.

I'm 45 year old and You are probably not significantly older than me (if not younger)...

Unfortunately, I have never used the command line inputs to ffmpeg and its too late for me to start now.

Well, i've started seriously using ffmpeg maybe few years ago...

Anyway, I would need something with a front-end to ffmpeg that would give me an option to tick and then it would invoke a similar script so I could test the output. Again, thanks for all you effort but I don't think you can teach this old dog a new trick at this point in my life.

As long you know how drag&drop works in Windows then you not need anything except Notepad and ffmpeg from Zeranoe.

1 open Notepad
2 copy bellow text to Notepad window

@setlocal
@REM Where to Find ffmpeg
@set FFMPEG=".\ffmpeg.exe"
@set /p qpval=Enter QP value (e.g 16, reasonable range 8 - 24, lower = higher quality and higher bitrate): 
@echo QP value is: %qpval%
@SET x264opts="qp=%qpval%:open_gop=0:pic_struct=1:aud=1:cabac=1:threads=auto:no_psnr=1:no_ssim=1:colorprim=bt709:transfer=bt709:colormatrix=bt709"
@%ffmpeg% -i %1 -c:a copy -c:v libx264 -preset veryfast -tune stillimage -profile:v high -x264opts %x264opts% -x264-params %x264opts% -vf "scale=3840:-8:sws_flags=spline,format=pix_fmts=yuv420p" -movflags faststart -y -f mp4 %1_YT4k.mp4

3 save file with any_name_you_like and extension .bat or .cmd in folder where ffmpeg.exe is located
4 Drag & drop video file on this batch icon
5 enter QP value you like - i suggest something around 16 - 18, wait till encoder ends, new video file will be created.

This should work without problems i hope.

Thanks again!

gus

No problemo Gus, glad to help!
Cheers
PA

[gus gusimio]

Hi again pandy,

For the record, I'm 66. FYI, I tried a front-end that had many of your settings and I was able to create a 1440 and 1800 movie that resulted in large file sizes (one was 322mb (if I remember correctly). Then I uploaded the 1800 to YouTube and it even gave me an option to view it at HD 1440; however, when I downloaded it, the resolution was no better than previous uploads because YouTube down-scaled it so much. Anyway, thanks for the detailed instructions. Give me a few days and I will post the results of my testing using your method. BTW, the front-end I used is here:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/rockymountainsmovieconverter/

Thanks again, I'll be back in a few days.

gus

[videobruger]

Frankly the only benefit I see from making a "fake" upscale to 4k before uploading to YT is that 4k is then available for playback from YT. It mostly, however, requires a user to actively select this resolution and not use "Auto".

The drawback is that the loosy-to-loosy conversion in the upscaling gives a loss in quality and as manono already said since YT uses the same bitrate for the same resolution the quality for say a 720p version is actually worse when upscaling instead of using the best version that can be produced by what-ever-software produces the slideshow. (You decide if you find this noticable)

the resolution was no better than previous uploads because YouTube down-scaled it so much. To download the 4k version you need a downloader that let you select between the versions available (resolutions). If you download as YT Video Administrator you'll always (I think?) get a 720p version.

[pandy]

Hi again pandy,

For the record, I'm 66. FYI, I tried a front-end that had many of your settings and I was able to create a 1440 and 1800 movie that resulted in large file sizes (one was 322mb (if I remember correctly). Then I uploaded the 1800 to YouTube and it even gave me an option to view it at HD 1440; however, when I downloaded it, the resolution was no better than previous uploads because YouTube down-scaled it so much. Anyway, thanks for the detailed instructions. Give me a few days and I will post the results of my testing using your method. BTW, the front-end I used is here:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/rockymountainsmovieconverter/

Thanks again, I'll be back in a few days.

gus

Hello Gus,

Allow me to advice a two software solutions to verify what is a highest quality offered by YT.
If you use web browser compliant with firefox (i use palemoon but addon should work on any firefox compliant browser) then i recommend in my opinion best solution to download movie to HDD (but you can select various resolution so you can personally inspect various qualities offered by YT) - http://www.cys-audiovideodownloader.com/
Second tip - you can use youtube-dl - this is also command line tool but basic usage is very simple - just youtube-dl "url" so for example youtube-dl http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9YLTNGVdPU will download movie from this url with highest possible quality available on YT.
Web browsers usually have some limitations and they may not offer highest quality available on YT.
Download movie and review it locally on computer.

Side to age - congratulations and all the best!
If You have any issue feel free to ask - this is good forum with plenty experts willing to help - i'm not an expert but the anyway glad to help.
Good Luck Gus!

[gus gusimio]

Hi videobruger,

I did do a lot of testing and I think I am going to settle on just uploading the .wmv file (as you suggested); however, I will try pandy's method because of the effort he put forth in coaching me and I will post my results here in a day or so.

Thanks,

gus

[pandy]

Frankly the only benefit I see from making a "fake" upscale to 4k before uploading to YT is that 4k is then available for playback from YT. It mostly, however, requires a user to actively select this resolution and not use "Auto".

The drawback is that the loosy-to-loosy conversion in the upscaling gives a loss in quality and as manono already said since YT uses the same bitrate for the same resolution the quality for say a 720p version is actually worse when upscaling instead of using the best version that can be produced by what-ever-software produces the slideshow. (You decide if you find this noticable)

the resolution was no better than previous uploads because YouTube down-scaled it so much. To download the 4k version you need a downloader that let you select between the versions available (resolutions). If you download as YT Video Administrator you'll always (I think?) get a 720p version.

Partially correct as:
Higher resolution (upscaled) usually have no extended content in frequency domain so higher bitrate allocated by YT should translate directly to better quality.
Thanks to oversampling (upscaling can be considered as oversampling) overall errors introduced in processing are lower.
As video is bigger than real it can be downscaled back to native and as such errors also reduced (for example block size reduced by half in both direction i.e. less visually perceivable).
Resizing itself introduce marginal loss of quality especially when compared to overall lossy coding.
If you considered perfect mathematical case for upsampling (point resizing) then it is lossless transformation (but perceived quality is low).
Remember that for half and quarter of pixel precision (motion estimation) video is resized anyway (by two or by four as there is no such thing as half or quarter of pixel).
For static (still image) video 4k upscaling can be even more efficient i.e. offer higher bitrate.

Web browser capabilities are completely different topic - that's why i advised to Gus verify quality by downloading YT clip locally - as YT use DASH then quality depends on link quality and browser - it may vary from place and browser and as such it is not obejctive way to judge how YT can be.

[gus gusimio]

Hi again pandy (and all),

OK, I did the test and here are the results:

First, I created two 30-second movies of a single quality image using WMM for one and the script for the other using a QP value of 16.



Next, I uploaded both to you tube. I noted that even though the script video was smaller, it took twice as long to become active (eg, published) and the settings to watch the movie above 360p took an extra 10 minutes or so. Here are the movies for your comparison and/or edification. Now, viewing both at 1080p, I personally see no real difference in quality from a normal viewing distance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3ZOeY1PG24&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmBuJ9lSnUU&feature=youtu.be

And finally, I download both videos at 720p and they were both the same size with the same viewing quality (IMHO):




My personal conclusion: This script is really neat and I can see some application for it; however, it really doesn't work for me because of the extra YouTube processing time and, since the downloads are the same size and quality, it is easiest for me to just upload the original .wmv or .mp4 file and be done with it. Also, thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread and a big thank you to pandy for his detailed guidance so I could actually do the test comparison.


Cheers,

gus

[pandy]

Hello Gus, so i've checked above YT links and seem that "1920x1080 made with WMM.mp4" file is available only as 720p (at least it was maximum resolution reported by YT).

{
    "streams": [
        {
            "index": 0,
            "codec_name": "h264",
            "codec_long_name": "H.264 / AVC / MPEG-4 AVC / MPEG-4 part 10",
            "profile": "High",
            "codec_type": "video",
            "codec_time_base": "1001/60000",
            "codec_tag_string": "avc1",
            "codec_tag": "0x31637661",
            "width": 1280,
            "height": 720,
            "coded_width": 1280,
            "coded_height": 720,
            "has_b_frames": 0,
            "sample_aspect_ratio": "1:1",
            "display_aspect_ratio": "16:9",
            "pix_fmt": "yuv420p",
            "level": 31,
            "chroma_location": "left",
            "refs": 1,
            "is_avc": "true",
            "nal_length_size": "4",
            "r_frame_rate": "30000/1001",
            "avg_frame_rate": "30000/1001",
            "time_base": "1/30000",
            "start_pts": 0,
            "start_time": "0:00:00.000000",
            "duration_ts": 899899,
            "duration": "0:00:29.996633",
            "bit_rate": "1.087000 Mbit/s",
            "bits_per_raw_sample": "8",
            "nb_frames": "899",
            "disposition": {
                "default": 1,
                "dub": 0,
                "original": 0,
                "comment": 0,
                "lyrics": 0,
                "karaoke": 0,
                "forced": 0,
                "hearing_impaired": 0,
                "visual_impaired": 0,
                "clean_effects": 0,
                "attached_pic": 0
            },
            "tags": {
                "language": "und",
                "handler_name": "VideoHandler"
            }
        }

On other side "1920x1080 ffmpeg script mp4 YT4k.mp4" file was with UHD resolution:

{
    "streams": [
        {
            "index": 0,
            "codec_name": "h264",
            "codec_long_name": "H.264 / AVC / MPEG-4 AVC / MPEG-4 part 10",
            "profile": "High",
            "codec_type": "video",
            "codec_time_base": "1001/60000",
            "codec_tag_string": "avc1",
            "codec_tag": "0x31637661",
            "width": 3840,
            "height": 2160,
            "coded_width": 3840,
            "coded_height": 2160,
            "has_b_frames": 1,
            "sample_aspect_ratio": "1:1",
            "display_aspect_ratio": "16:9",
            "pix_fmt": "yuv420p",
            "level": 51,
            "color_range": "tv",
            "color_space": "bt709",
            "color_transfer": "bt709",
            "color_primaries": "bt709",
            "chroma_location": "left",
            "refs": 2,
            "is_avc": "true",
            "nal_length_size": "4",
            "r_frame_rate": "30000/1001",
            "avg_frame_rate": "30000/1001",
            "time_base": "1/90000",
            "start_pts": 0,
            "start_time": "0:00:00.000000",
            "duration_ts": 2699697,
            "duration": "0:00:29.996633",
            "bit_rate": "2.785094 Mbit/s",
            "bits_per_raw_sample": "8",
            "nb_frames": "899",
            "disposition": {
                "default": 1,
                "dub": 0,
                "original": 0,
                "comment": 0,
                "lyrics": 0,
                "karaoke": 0,
                "forced": 0,
                "hearing_impaired": 0,
                "visual_impaired": 0,
                "clean_effects": 0,
                "attached_pic": 0
            },
            "tags": {
                "language": "und",
                "handler_name": "VideoHandler"
            }
        }

Second video offer without doubts higher spatial resolution (yacht tackling is retained and visible without any problem - my notebook has only 1920x1200 resolution as such i was able to see only video reduces by half i.e. 1920x1080).
Cheers!

[gus gusimio]

Hi pandy,

I get the YouTube option to view the WMM video at 1920x1080 (1080p). That is a really cool .bat file! Thanks for sharing and help too!


Best regards,

gus