Laptop crashes while rendering

[Srivas]

Hi.
I'm having a problem here. I have a laptop Samsung RF711, GeForce GT 540 graphics, 8 gm ram. Im using Vegas Pro 11 to render projects with uncompressed AVI to avc MP4. I use Neat Video filter and some internal filters. I finish my project, start rendering, after some time computer suddenly crashes, just switches off without any warning.

I don't think it's a heat problem. Changed thermal paste, using a cooling pad, temps are stable around 80C while rendering.

I switched to another desktop computer and rendered my project without any difficulties.

Any suggestions what can it be? A hardware incompatibility? Graphics card is switched off while rendering. Vegas runs in Vista compatibility mode, that's all the suggestions I found from web, still nothing. Desktop renders everything nicely without tweaking any of the above settings.

What's going on here? Any suggestions?

[redwudz]

I would check your RAM modules. Just a tiny error there can cause a crash when doing CPU intensive operations. Try http://www.memtest.org/

Also, you can go to 'Control panel>System>System protection>Advanced>Startup and Recovery>Settings' and uncheck 'Automatically restart'. That should give you a window with the fault that shut down the PC when it happens again.

If no fault, maybe overheat of one of the components, not necessarily the CPU. Run a thermal monitoring program like HWMonitor: http://www.cpuid.com/softwares/hwmonitor.html Check voltages also.

I personally wouldn't use a laptop for any type of rendering, but you probably have your reasons. They were not really designed for CPU intensive operations over a long period.

[aedipuss]

a proper power adapter might help. they came with a cheap 90 watt unit but under load the system draws over 100 watts. if yours is the original it might be failing.

[hech54]

I personally wouldn't use a laptop for any type of rendering

Exactly.

I switched to another desktop computer and rendered my project without any difficulties.

Because it's not a laptop.

[Srivas]

Thanks everyone for the advice!

I would check your RAM modules. Just a tiny error there can cause a crash when doing CPU intensive operations. Try http://www.memtest.org/

Ok, did that. First pass was ok, no errors. Was that enough?

If no fault, maybe overheat of one of the components, not necessarily the CPU. Run a thermal monitoring program like HWMonitor: http://www.cpuid.com/softwares/hwmonitor.html Check voltages also.

Installed the program. How do I know which temperatures indicate overheating (except processors going to 100C)?

I personally wouldn't use a laptop for any type of rendering, but you probably have your reasons. They were not really designed for CPU intensive operations over a long period.

Yes, I need it while traveling. But I also realized that it will not substitute a desktop.

[Srivas]

a proper power adapter might help. they came with a cheap 90 watt unit but under load the system draws over 100 watts. if yours is the original it might be failing.

I didn't know that. Is there a way to test that? Or if I often use it on full load, should I just get a better one instead? Just something more powerful from ebay?

[budwzr]

The battery is probably no good. It's siphoning off too many amps.

[turk690]

Most types of rendering consume 100% CPU cycles on some or all of the cores. Laptop fan/heatsink combos can only prevent very toasty conditions on the CPU so much for so long. To have an idea how well yours handle 100%, close all programs, & run a stress test like Prime95. See how sooner it shuts down....

[Srivas]

Most types of rendering consume 100% CPU cycles on some or all of the cores. Laptop fan/heatsink combos can only prevent very toasty conditions on the CPU so much for so long. To have an idea how well yours handle 100%, close all programs, & run a stress test like Prime95. See how sooner it shuts down....

It shut down in 3 minutes! Ok, I got the point. I did monitor the temps and one of the cores went on 100 degrees while the next one was on 90. Well, while I need to invest into a good desktop, I still need to use the laptop I have. And there will be times and places where I have no other option. One thing to do is to change the thermal paste, I used it for some time already. Another thing is, why the cores are heating up unevenly? I guess the paste is not spread properly, isn't it?

The battery is probably no good. It's siphoning off too many amps.

Removing the battery will help? I'll try that.

Another thing I think might help is to make some holes into the casing just beneath the fan. This model only has openings on sides, so although I can see that a cooler pad is helping, I guess it will be more effective when air can get straight to the fan/heatsink. I have to take it apart anyway, why not try?

One more point. I think there's a way to limit processor usage. Yes, under power management. In that way I'll lose some power but at least can finish the project without overheating.

[budwzr]

I use a laptop, but it's a "Desktop Replacement" type. It never overheats, but I use a fan cooler underneath and it brings cool air directly into the intakes. My power supply is a huge brick, and that thing gets hot. It's rated for 9.5 AMPS.

But, here's the kicker, when the battery is fully charged the brick doesn't get hot or even warm, even when rendering. But if the battery is low, or in your case maybe no good, it does get hot.

So the point is, with out the extra load of charging the battery you might be OK. Your laptop is going to take power from the battery while you're rendering, and the A/C is going to keep it topped off, but if the battery is bad the voltage is going to drop to zero right away, when you put a load on the CPU, and that triggers the power supply to go into high charge rate mode. Get it?

If that's not it, check your fans. My fans come on strong when rendering. They're audible. Like DefCon 5 from DefCon 1 (inaudible).

And then finally, don't just do one bigass final render. Pre-render along the way, especially heavy duty calculation renders.

And lastly, check out my latest YT video: http://files.videohelp.com/u/135518/LasVegas%20Promo.mp4 It's badass, right? How bout that gordita vieja? With the grandes nalgas, and tatoos. That DJ prolly wanted to break camp, yeah? Hahaha

[Srivas]

As I understand, if battery is bad, then it will get hot because computer tries to suck from it more power than it can give. Something like charging a device with a charger not having enough Amps. But that's not my case, battery is good. Power adapter is warm while rendering, but not more than that.

Why does the power always go through the battery? Doesn't the battery wear down quicker that way? Is there a way to bypass the battery while plugged in (and switch back to it when power goes off)?

I figured that my problem is the processor and I have to put new thermal paste. Right now I switched one core off and now it's stable. But 25% less power...

I use a laptop, but it's a "Desktop Replacement" type.

That's interesting. What model are you using? I need something like that.

[budwzr]

Toshiba Qosmio i7 18.4" HD XGA display. It's a bad mama jama.

This bad boy still gets oohs and aahs on the road when I pull it from the case. You should get the Toshiba case, it's heavily padded and awesome too. I think it's like fifty bucks.

They don't sell these in Fry's, BestBuy, etc. because they're too high end. Most people don't want to spend that much, but if you're into video editing, ya gotta have it!

The reason people poo-poo editing on a laptop is they don't even know something like this exists. Most buy a $399 Costco or Sam's Club model thinking they got a "killer deal" because of the low price. And that's fine, if they don't edit video.

P.S. This thing blows any Apple Macbook "Pro" out of the water too. You're throwing rooster tails from your SeaDoo RXT on their rubber boat, while they're sniveling and condescending about it. Hahaha

[turk690]

I did monitor the temps and one of the cores went on 100 degrees while the next one was on 90. Well, while I need to invest into a good desktop, I still need to use the laptop I have. And there will be times and places where I have no other option. One thing to do is to change the thermal paste, I used it for some time already. Another thing is, why the cores are heating up unevenly? I guess the paste is not spread properly, isn't it?

Thermal paste or heatsink compound, even the fanciest kind that Antec & its ilk sells for about $10 for a pea-volume drop, will eventually dry up. But while significant, that is not nearly the main problem here. Most laptops are just designed to be used for wretching through facebook, or enduring "how did I get here?" situations on the Internet, but not much more.

I use a laptop, but it's a "Desktop Replacement" type.

That's why if mobile NLE is really, really required, then indeed, the "desktop replacement" category of laptops should be 1st on what to consider getting for the job. Alas, sheeple demands have consistently dumbed down everything to the point where a tablet can feel and look like a toy. Most everyone who gets hold of one feels they can now do NLE. That is not necessarily a bad thing but that's another debate.

There are other limitations/evils/disadvantages of laughtops to be considered for serious NLE use (including but not limited to the minimum two separately-controlled hard drive requirement), but I have talked about these in similar posts I have replied to on this forum...

[budwzr]

Ummm... My laptop has an eSata combo port that you can plug a portable hard drive directly to the buss, as if it was a separate internal hard drive, and also doubles as a USB3 connection, plus three more USB3/2 ports.

And you can always throw an SSD drive in there, if you want your NLE to come on faster, but I don't know if it really speeds things up any more.

[Srivas]

Looks nice. I guess I also have a desktop replacement then. Not a toshiba but a samsung RF711. But the parameters are quite in line with a desktop replacement, as it came out when I looked out the term from google. I bought mine 1,5 years ago with an i7-2820qm and 8gb ram. It's powerful enough to withstand my time frame for rendering. But still not good enough to withstand the load I put on it.

I have to look into a desktop for home use, and fix up the laptop for traveling.

[budwzr]

It sounds like a desktop replacement, but they don't mention that term, curiously. If it was, they would surely say so. Doncha Think? I mean "Samsong" isn't exactly considered "High End", no offense.

Is your power supply a huge heavy brick? Using up to almost 10 amps? The output voltage is 19 volts, so that's almost 200 watts, right?

[budwzr]

You might try Vegas 12 and see what happens. They don't announce performance tweaks, but I know they're always optimizing it to get more sales from people with slower computers.

Not so much Premiere Pro and Avid.

[Srivas]

I mean "Samsong" isn't exactly considered "High End", no offense.

Interesting enough, just searched for "desktop replacement laptop 2013" and the second link, http://reviews.cnet.com/best-desktop-replacements/
puts samsung on the first place

Anyway, I'm not a Samsung fan or anything, I don't care, but I did consider all kinds of models when buying it. You really have to have some good advice when getting anything, and those reviews are definitely biased. And user reviews are also not so accurate, since nobody wants to look like a jerk, buying crappy stuff. I mean to say that about Samsung. It's a consumer company. But I also mean that what to trust then? Where can you get accurate advice for things like that?

I heard good things about Toshiba, I should check into it.

[Srivas]

That's why if mobile NLE is really, really required, then indeed, the "desktop replacement" category of laptops should be 1st on what to consider getting for the job. Alas, sheeple demands have consistently dumbed down everything to the point where a tablet can feel and look like a toy. Most everyone who gets hold of one feels they can now do NLE. That is not necessarily a bad thing but that's another debate.

There are other limitations/evils/disadvantages of laughtops to be considered for serious NLE use (including but not limited to the minimum two separately-controlled hard drive requirement), but I have talked about these in similar posts I have replied to on this forum...

Can you post a link to your posts? I want to get hold on the topic, not to be ripped off anymore.

Can you suggest some real stuff, good quality brand for such laptops?

What about this? http://www.falcon-nw.com/laptops/drx

[budwzr]

The red flags on that "Falcon" is that it looks like a Toshiba. And the "cool carry bag", WTF? I think that's marketed to posers. What's next, a free Mr. T "gold" chain?

And no prices? Fishy

Maybe they go kapoop in a few months?

Hahaha

[turk690]

Looks nice. I guess I also have a desktop replacement then. Not a toshiba but a samsung RF711. But the parameters are quite in line with a desktop replacement, as it came out when I looked out the term from google. I bought mine 1,5 years ago with an i7-2820qm and 8gb ram. It's powerful enough to withstand my time frame for rendering. But still not good enough to withstand the load I put on it.

I have to look into a desktop for home use, and fix up the laptop for traveling.

The RF711 is a swell looking laptop whose main claim to fame, I suppose, is its i7 processor. I would open it up and see if dust bunnies has clogged its CPU fan vents and clean them off, and also remove and re-install the heatsink after cleaning the surfaces up & applying thermal paste.
But this laptop hardly qualifies for serious NLE use, IMHO, simply because there is no way to attach a separate independently-controlled hard drive to be used for capture and render: it has NO eSATA port. NO, USB doesn't count, dear. The single wretched hard drive is running & seeking all the time to accomodate all requests from the OS and programs; these 2.5" things can ALSO become very hot, adding to your already 90°C ready-to-grill on CPU, plus other very hot things like the GPU and your system RAM, so the whole crashes faster than a very bad crack high.
Maybe that's one reason Samsung did not label it "desktop replacement".

[Srivas]

But this laptop hardly qualifies for serious NLE use, IMHO, simply because there is no way to attach a separate independently-controlled hard drive to be used for capture and render: it has NO eSATA port. NO, USB doesn't count, dear. The single wretched hard drive is running & seeking all the time to accomodate all requests from the OS and programs; these 2.5" things can ALSO become very hot, adding to your already 90°C ready-to-grill on CPU, plus other very hot things like the GPU and your system RAM, so the whole crashes faster than a very bad crack high.
Maybe that's one reason Samsung did not label it "desktop replacement".

I see. There is an internal bay for second hard drive. Making the best use of a bad bargain, I could get a SSD for system and use the present one for rendering, right?

Why do you prefer eSATA for rendering rather than USB?

[turk690]

Can you suggest some real stuff, good quality brand for such laptops?

Though I seldom go by brand, I suggest, from experience, looking at Toshiba, Dell, ASUS, in that order. A laptop intended to seriously be used for NLE (say, Premiere Pro or something else) should, as minimum, have

• some version of an Intel i7 processor (sorry AMD)
• separate nVidia GPU with at least 1GB of video RAM
• Intel chipset (no VIA or AMD or any of that shit)
• at least 8GB of system RAM, preferably much more
• a fast 7200rpm system hard drive or SSD, the biggest you can get
• suitable built-in hardware for HD audio
• reliable SD/SDHC card reader for importing MP4 or AVCHD files directly from camcorder
• an all-important eSATA port to connect an external fast hard drive with, for capture & render files
• an after-market reliable PSU brick with power twice the rated laptop requirement

God knows what pesky useless junk blinking apps a new laptop will have pre-installed, so I'd root out everything on the system hard drive the first time I turn it on; figure out a way to re-install the existing Windows without the bling or buy and install an OEM professional or ultimate Windows is up to you. The pre-installed toy-like apps are good for sheeple but you have no idea what they are doing under all else going on... who knows whether or not they have a hand in shutting the laptop down while you are desperately rendering a timeline.
As much as possible, no NLE on battery power alone; and when doing NLE, physically disconnect the battery to prevent the attendant h/w & programs from incessantly checking and charging the batteries. We need everything to be smooth and reliable; any kind of disruption to the CPU, GPU, and system RAM supply lines should be avoided. It kind of defeats the idea, but we are after portability here mainly; damn if a reliable AC outlet is not available nearby. Power options should be set to everything always ON.
All communication should be disabled while doing NLE (bluetooth, wi-fi, ethernet, etc); the transceivers of these devices consume power and CPU cycles otherwise.
Remove or disable unnecessary USB devices apart from mouse.
Although a built-in optical drive is convenient (like that RF711 blu-ray writer), heavy use will more often than not make it one of the first components of a laptop to die. Use sparingly, maybe.
Firewire was once important, but unless you are capturing from HDV, hardly so now. If you do, a TI-chipset Firewire interface is said to be the most reliably consistent. USB3 is good if you can get it (convenient for attaching thumb drives).
Stand-offs so that the laptop is at least an inch over a hard surface ensures the fan is sucking up air, as well as avoiding doing your NLE in temperatures much above 25°C, if you can help it.

[turk690]

Why do you prefer eSATA for rendering rather than USB?

I do not prefer eSATA over USB personally; it's the nature of the difference between the two that dictate why USB is largely unsuitable for non-linear video editing purposes.
We need independent controllers for the drives that will cater only to the specific drive; ergo SATA fits this category: one controller for one drive, and only that drive.
USB is a hub-type controller that is responsible for many drives and devices simultaneously; it has to poll existing devices if requests are made for I/O by the OS, programs, and everything in between. If you are capturing to a USB drive and for some reason the controller decides for a few cycles to service a request from another device, frames can drop or the capture process can stall. If rendering, I/O to a USB drive can slow down considerably. USB3 is a brute force approach to make the whole thing faster a bit but doesn't remove the one thing that makes USB a star: it's convenient to use. That's all.
In all NLE schemes I have encountered, the separately-controlled system drive, capture drive idea is a basic one, a tenet. This is what instantly makes a lot of laptops out there immediately useless for any serious NLE (excluding fun and happy windows movie maker tinkers, but even then). eSATA has come along to save the day by providing and fulfilling this essential need.

[budwzr]

Yo Toik! You really know your stuff. I know what a tinker is, because I call them dinkerers. They dink around with all the settings until the system is all screwed up, then blame it on the NLE, or Windoze.

I thought "sheeple" was a typo, but NO it's a valid new word. I was using "dullard", got that from Anthony Hopkins. This sounds condescending, but the truth is, you gotta be a narcissistic ADHD sociopath to get ahead in anything nowadays. Too many naysayers.

Anyhoo, I'm not crazy about eSata either because some programs can't see the drive unless you map a letter to it, but like you said, it has it's own controller so it's faster simply because it's directly on the buss.

Here's my setup. I'm not just talking, I'm legit. Sorry for the bad photo (iPhone).

[turk690]

....I know what a tinker is, because I call them dinkerers. They dink around with all the settings until the system is all screwed up, then blame it on the NLE, or Windoze.....I thought "sheeple" was a typo, but NO it's a valid new word. I was using "dullard", got that from Anthony Hopkins. This sounds condescending, but the truth is, you gotta be a narcissistic ADHD sociopath to get ahead in anything nowadays. Too many naysayers...... Here's my setup. I'm not just talking, I'm legit. Sorry for the bad photo (iPhone).

I was once a clueless tinkerer/dinkerer many moons ago when I first posted questions on dvdrhelp.com (I suppose we all are at some point). I'm grateful to all the great gurus on this forum who has helped me get to this more enlightened state on video stuff. This motivates me to return the favor by responding to forum questions if I have an idea what treacle the OP is plodding in.
Those who come to videohelp.com hopefully become less and less sheeple each time they do, as they go away with an idea, a clue, how to solve their vexing problems, if not an outright solution. Plenty of very nice people here!
Or newbies can choose to go to doom9, where they are more likely to be laughed at, or more seriously, skewered and roasted after being basted with garlic, honey, and Worcestershire sauce... coming out of the process ever more confused and now duly a member of the sheeple segment of society!
There are choices to be made there, no?
Great Toshiba setup, btw....

[aedipuss]

not bad budz, it even has speakers that are big enough to be visable. not a common commodity. how's the keyboard? any better than the usual laptop mushy chicklets? all my desktops have keyboards with mechanical switches, i don't get along with membrane squishiness.

[budwzr]

The keys are OK, not like a real keyboard, and yeah, they have that chickle-chickle sound, hahaha. Whew, this thread ran the gamut, eh? (Canadien Lingo)

[Srivas]

• some version of an Intel i7 processor (sorry AMD)
• separate nVidia GPU with at least 1GB of video RAM
• Intel chipset (no VIA or AMD or any of that shit)
• at least 8GB of system RAM, preferably much more
• a fast 7200rpm system hard drive or SSD, the biggest you can get
• suitable built-in hardware for HD audio
• reliable SD/SDHC card reader for importing MP4 or AVCHD files directly from camcorder
• an all-important eSATA port to connect an external fast hard drive with, for capture & render files
• an after-market reliable PSU brick with power twice the rated laptop requirement

God knows what pesky useless junk blinking apps a new laptop will have pre-installed, so I'd root out everything on the system hard drive the first time I turn it on; figure out a way to re-install the existing Windows without the bling or buy and install an OEM professional or ultimate Windows is up to you. The pre-installed toy-like apps are good for sheeple but you have no idea what they are doing under all else going on... who knows whether or not they have a hand in shutting the laptop down while you are desperately rendering a timeline.
As much as possible, no NLE on battery power alone; and when doing NLE, physically disconnect the battery to prevent the attendant h/w & programs from incessantly checking and charging the batteries. We need everything to be smooth and reliable; any kind of disruption to the CPU, GPU, and system RAM supply lines should be avoided. It kind of defeats the idea, but we are after portability here mainly; damn if a reliable AC outlet is not available nearby. Power options should be set to everything always ON.
All communication should be disabled while doing NLE (bluetooth, wi-fi, ethernet, etc); the transceivers of these devices consume power and CPU cycles otherwise.
Remove or disable unnecessary USB devices apart from mouse.
Although a built-in optical drive is convenient (like that RF711 blu-ray writer), heavy use will more often than not make it one of the first components of a laptop to die. Use sparingly, maybe.
Firewire was once important, but unless you are capturing from HDV, hardly so now. If you do, a TI-chipset Firewire interface is said to be the most reliably consistent. USB3 is good if you can get it (convenient for attaching thumb drives).
Stand-offs so that the laptop is at least an inch over a hard surface ensures the fan is sucking up air, as well as avoiding doing your NLE in temperatures much above 25°C, if you can help it.

Thanks for the insight! Many points I didn't know before.

One thing. Why have a big system drive? I mean, say, you have 40-50 gb under OS/programs and another 50 gb space for this stuff to work smoothly. So like 128 gb SSD should be good to go. Why waste extra money to get something bigger?

And another question. Does anyone have experience with 2 bay laptops? I want to get a SSD for the system and use another bay for renders. Does the second bay have a separate controller? Better off I would sell my laptop, but who will buy it?

Those who come to videohelp.com hopefully become less and less sheeple each time they do, as they go away with an idea, a clue, how to solve their vexing problems, if not an outright solution. Plenty of very nice people here!

Completely agree with you.

[budwzr]

And my Toshiba makes music too: HD http://files.videohelp.com/u/135518/Funky%20Trance.avi