Pioneer Elite CLD-99 laserdisc player - black levels?

[echo1434]

So after many years I'm finally getting around to putting my laserdisc collection to digital for good; however, now that I have a nice new monitor something has become blatantly obvious: I never really get true 0 IRE blacks from any of my captures. Black always seems gray, even when doing a 7.5 step-down during capture.

I prefer using the S-video output; however, composite produces the exact same results. In fact, I have taken screenshots of both S-video and both composite outputs - all produce the same result.

I've made two screenshots from a raw capture I made. I intentionally set the screenshot it to take a bit larger area than the capture's resolution (720 x 480), so the empty spaces are filled in with a true black-black to show the difference I am speaking about.

The first is simply a blank output from the laserdisc player in standby, and the second is from a widescreen title - notice how the "black bars" are really gray in screenshot #2, especially compared to the black fill mentioned above:






Again, please note that the IRE black level was "stepped down" for this capture; if not, it would even be lighter. This was from an American release, although even my Japanese laserdiscs don't quite get down to true black, even when using stepdown (which should not be necessary). I have measured this all on a vectorscope, even though it is pretty obvious on a properly calibrated display.

Judging by some screenshots I made of test captures several years ago, my CLD-99 has always been like this - but my old CRT monitor was just so dang dark that it wasn't all that noticeable.

The odd thing is that I had my player serviced by Bayview Electronics (the only remaining Pioneer laserdisc service center I know of in the U.S. ) last summer, and when recently contacting them about the black levels they pretty much brushed it off - mentioning there is an internal "video level" setting in the service mode, which is a pretty complicated thing to get into, but they were "sure everything was fine as they would have noticed it" when it was in for service.

Additionally, I am seeing whites that appear to be over 255 IRE, so I'm just wondering if this is really "normal" for the CLD-99. I can seem to adequately correct all the levels in post, but I would still like to know if there is any possible issue with the player itself.

For the record, I get perfect blacks from all of my VCRs and other equipment, so I am 100% my hardware/software is not the issue.

Thanks in advance for any input, and sorry for bringing up a topic about such an ancient format.

[sanlyn]

If you are going to archive to NTSC DVD, NTSC is RGB16-235, not RGB-0-255.
If you are archiving for PC playback only, the sRGB range is RGB 0-255. It will look good on your PC. It will look weird on TV. Some TV's will choke on RGB 0-255 and will appear to lose detail in dense shadows and have overly bright highlights. I have seen TV images do a shake, rattle and roll with PC range input. Some TV's can't handle that range very well.

On your computer, NTSC "black" will look a bit gray. On TV it will look "black". The blacks in your posts are RGB20. If you havea good proc amp you can adjust during capture, otherwise adjust with post-processing software.

I don't know what PC monitor you have, but it should be calibrated for video work. This website shows how to do it properly with a very popular semi-pro colorimeter and software designed for this purpose:
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/eye_one_display2.htm
When you see this report you'll be shocked at how far off from standard the typical PC monitor really is.

This website shows how to use the same type of device to calibrate your TV, with free software:
http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457

Don't let your monitor or TV salesman tell you that your display is "accurate" because it's digital. The front panel displays of PC and TV monitors are managed by digital circuits, but their output by necessity is analog (because your can't see digits. They can only see analog light waves). The average home PC monitor is 200% to 300% too bright for video work, with dense blacks (they're usually blue, not black), poor shadow detail, bluish whites, blown-out brights, and oversaturated color (usually red). Your TV's factory settings are designed to look "good" in fluorescent showrooms, not in living rooms.

[jagabo]

I suspect your problem is your graphics cards settings. Go to the setup applet's video proc amp settings and adjust the contrast and brightness.

You should upload a short sample of your captured video. Showing screen caps leaves you wide open to problems with the player, the graphics card, etc. And you should be capturing in YUV, not RGB. Because video is natively YUV and there are different ways of converting to RGB which will result in different levels and colors.

[jman98]

Don't apologize. I've been doing some laserdisc captures myself recently with my newish Hauppauge Colouss card. However, I cannot help you as honestly I am just not that fussy about my captures.

If they don't respond, you might try sending a private message to either edDV or dphirschler as they are our resident laserdisc capture experts. edDV posts regularly so he may see this, but I haven't seen dphirschler post here in a while. edDV has been pretty adamant that you need to do laserdisc captures from the composite connection instead of S-video. I can't really tell any difference, but again, I'm not that fussy. However, I respect edDV's opinion and I bow to his superior knowledge so I do my captures from the composite connection.

[jagabo]

Note that the signal that's recorded on a laserdisc is composite video. Unless you have a high end player the s-video output is created by a poor composite-to-s-video converter. Depending on your capture device you may get better results capturing composite.

[echo1434]

Thank you for all the replies, but virtually all of your recommendations have been ruled out as explained in detail from the original post (please read the entire thing).

Anyway, if the screenshots' blacks are RGB20, then the original blacks were RGB36 (because they were already stepped down during capture).

It doesn't really matter what a monitor says at this point, because this can all be measured - and the measurements are way off (my player outputs RGB36 black as "normal"???)

But if you really can't be bothered to read my original post, I have already done extensive comparisons of screenshots between composite and S-video (it's virtually the same, I have physical proof of this). But as my capture card does not have a comb filter S-video makes more sense to use. However, it does not make any significant difference as to the black levels.

Actually, I just checked about 20 screenshot comparisons I made (frame-for-frame), and composite is a hair brighter and barely, barely less detailed (neither of which I would consider an improvement).

[jagabo]

It doesn't really matter what a monitor says at this point, because this can all be measured - and the measurements are way off (my player outputs RGB36 black as "normal"???)

What matters is how the YUV video got to be RGB on your monitor. It could happen in the capture driver, the capture software, the player software, or the graphics card.

I saw nothing in your original post that indicates you have adjusted your software and system to make sure that YUV to RGB conversion is happening properly. The closest you come is "For the record, I get perfect blacks from all of my VCRs and other equipment...". But it could just as well be that your other sources are out of spec and your system is maladjusted to suit those improper caps. The black border around your caps is added by the player and can be any color the player wants. Just because it's blacker than the black letterbox bars and other blacks in your video doesn't mean anything. You need to examine the black level while the video is in YUV. Or you have to calibrate your player or graphics card's video proc amp to make sure they YUV to RGB conversion is performing the proper contrast stretch for a computer monitor.

If your levels are really off you can adjust the capture driver's proc amp (if available) to compensate. Or filter later to get the correct levels.

[jman98]

Looks to me like we have one of those "I know more than you do. Your answer did not coincide with my beliefs, therefore I reject it. I'm not listening to anything you say. La la la la...." kind of people. I'm done here. echo1434 isn't serious about getting help. He just wants someone to validate what he already has decided. I don't understand why people like him even bother to post in the first place.

[echo1434]

Looks to me like we have one of those "I know more than you do. Your answer did not coincide with my beliefs, therefore I reject it. I'm not listening to anything you say. La la la la...." kind of people. I'm done here. echo1434 isn't serious about getting help. He just wants someone to validate what he already has decided. I don't understand why people like him even bother to post in the first place.

Having a bad day?

Pardon me if I get a bit irked when people say "You should x..., " when I made it clear that I already tried x in my original post - because it makes me reach the exact same conclusion that you're accusing me of.

I need to look into my workflow a bit more to be able to confidently respond to the other recent posts, but you are welcome to go away. I'm certainly not holding a gun to your head.

Thanks everyone (else).

[sanlyn]

You can always make your borders look as you wish, if not during capture then in post-processing. It remains, however, that the Columbia image you posted looks burned out and is too bright. That, too, can be repaired in many ways.

I understand what you're saying about your VCR putting out such great blacks. It's not just the borders. A typical VCR stretches contrast to make you think that what you have on tape is zippier than what's really there. Darks and highlights get clipped in encoding. If you convert to RGB using PC601, your YUV source will of course look lighter and you'll retain more detail in the extremes. Unfortunately your TV doesn't know from PC.601. If you're working with uncalibrated equipment, it will look one way on your TV but another way on another display. Unless you maintain a standard levels and color balance setup from start to finish, pray that your displays last for a long while, lest you view your archives on another set and get a rude surprise from the results.

Anyway, your player seems to be putting out clean results with little noise, at least from the images posted. If I could get VHS tape to look that clean, life would be sooooo much easier.

[echo1434]

Ok... I am sure that the only RGB conversion taking place is during playback (definitely not during capture).

Well, let's step out of the computer world for a moment:

I hooked my laserdisc player directly to my plasma TV (no computer involved!) I do not see true blacks, just that gray as seen in the screenshots (sometimes it's not even that dark). I simply do not see true blacks at all from ANY laserdisc out of about a dozen, even the Japanese ones.

Play a DVD. What do we see? Oh, the opening title is.. BLACK.

Play a VHS tape... BLACK!

Back to laserdisc: GRAY.

It looks very, very to what I see on my computer (because my computer monitor is calibrated, as I mentioned in my first post). I wonder why that's so hard for everyone to believe. Do I have to write a five-page dissertation describing exactly how I calibrated it for people to not assume I'm a complete idiot and just making wild guesses?

Therefore, and probably much to the chagrin of jman98, I'm coming back to my own original conclusions. Either my CLD-99 has something wacky about it, or the player itself naturally likes outputting things on the bright side.

Help?

[jagabo]

my computer monitor is calibrated, as I mentioned in my first post

For video or for the Desktop? There are different proc amps in your graphics drivers, one for the Desktop and one for video overlay. Desktop applications use the former. Media players usually use the latter. Video editors may use either. Just saying your monitor is calibrated doesn't mean the computer's system for handling multimedia is properly set up. You calibrate the monitor (and/or Desktop proc amp) so that RGB=0 gives a good black, RGB=255 gives a good white, and all values in between are distinguishable and correct. But how YUV video in the file gets to RGB in the graphics card's frame buffer is determined by the player's or graphics card's video proc amp.

Either my CLD-99 has something wacky about it, or the player itself naturally likes outputting things on the bright side.

Given all your observations it sounds like the laserdisc player is putting out bad levels. And let's assume that's the case. So what? You can fix the levels while capturing (via the capture devices proc amp) or in post. Or use an analog proc amp between the player and the capture card. You usually have to adjust the levels for capture because different devices have different output levels.

[sanlyn]

No one doubts that your laser player is outputting grays instead of blacks. I don't know whether it records to RGB, but if you're going to your PC with it and capturing MPEG, you're recording isn't RGB. I put black leader and black borders (RGB 0) on my work all day long, no problem, and many ways to do that. I think a couple of readers have conceded that some players work at different IRE levels. All this can be improved with processing of one kind or other, either during capture or after. So we're with you on the basic gray problem, echo1434, and someone has suggested why it happens.

But, no, we don't need a term paper on how you calibrated your monitor or your plasma. I've done all mine with an EyeOne Display 2, with XRite software for the PCs and HCFR for the TVs. There are other means of doing it, but a colorimeter or photometer is essential. A TV maps the YCbCr equivalent of RGB-16 to "TV Black" on DVD playback. Of course, the DVD maker could just as well have made that lead-in or border as jet-black to begin with.

The best way to clean up the borders is to first adjust levels in your overall image, then add black borders. Adjusting the entire image just to get darker borders will give you, of course, a darker image overall.

[echo1434]

I'm not disagreeing with everyone's calibration suggestions, but my main point was to figure out the issue with my CLD-99. I've always been under the impression that it's better to get things right from the source (when possible), rather than touch them up with processing. Call me old school...

Maybe I posted this in the wrong category or gave the wrong impression somehow. The reality is I may want to sell the unit someday, and don't want to sell something out-of-spec to someone (who may very likely be using it to play discs on their TV and nothing more).

But I was already blown off by the only people I know who would seem to have the know-how to fix it, and I really don't feel like going out and spending upwards of $1000 to get another unit just to "see what the difference may be."

It could really be as simple as that, sorry if I made things more complicated than they need to be... The screenshots were mainly to demonstrate that this gray issue really does exist, whatever may be the cause.

[sanlyn]

Short of electronically modifying your hardware, you can fix the problem with a proc amp during capture or post-processing later. If you think post-processing is criminal activity (which means the world has a lot of criminals who routinely process captured video), you have to accept what your player delivers. Post-capture processing is standard procedure for restoration and archiving.

[themaster1]

If on your LD you have color bars i can help you to fix the black level and colors.
I'd need a sample (lossless,huff, YUY2 capture preferably )

[edDV]

This the first time I saw this thread so I pulled your screen caps to the Vegas timeline. The black frame shows about +2 % hot black. The "Columbia" slide was similar if you average out the noise. It also was mildly clipping at 108% (digital 255).

You should be using a color bar from a laserdisc for accurate measurement. Many laserdiscs include color bars. Most LD players will have internal black and gain pots used to set black and white levels.

...

edDV has been pretty adamant that you need to do laserdisc captures from the composite connection instead of S-video. I can't really tell any difference, but again, I'm not that fussy.

A Laserdisc is native composite. The hardware Y/C separators used on 90's Laserdisc players were inferior to most current capture card Y/C separators (2D/3D comb filters are best).

[echo1434]

Thanks again everyone... Unfortunately, I don't have a single disc with color bars (how cool is that?) Any suggestions?

By the way, I think it's clipping above 255 - because when I go to correct it, it takes a fair amount of alteration before it drops below that...

[edDV]

...
But if you really can't be bothered to read my original post, I have already done extensive comparisons of screenshots between composite and S-video (it's virtually the same, I have physical proof of this). But as my capture card does not have a comb filter S-video makes more sense to use. However, it does not make any significant difference as to the black levels.

Actually, I just checked about 20 screenshot comparisons I made (frame-for-frame), and composite is a hair brighter and barely, barely less detailed (neither of which I would consider an improvement).

There will be no difference in levels. The Y/C separator difference shows up as edge crawl and cross color, cross luma artifacts in the picture. What is your capture card?

Youtube has a lot of CLD-99 performance discussions. Somewhere in there they may explain the levels controls.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vrp1CK7OGUE&feature=related

Alternately you can fix levels in your editor. However, white clipping cannot be corrected in post.

NTSC composite video allowed 20% overshoots above white in order to pass maximum chroma. 8bit digital luma clips at +8% (108 IRE). If the disc itself has >108 IRE peaks, you need to adjust gain inside the unit to prevent clipping. Or use a proc-amp between the player and capture card.

[sanlyn]

Say, I seem to recall those adjustments on some players (this is going way back). EdDV, master1, couldn't the adjustment be made without color bars? Like, visually? Not perfect, but . . .

[echo1434]

...
But if you really can't be bothered to read my original post, I have already done extensive comparisons of screenshots between composite and S-video (it's virtually the same, I have physical proof of this). But as my capture card does not have a comb filter S-video makes more sense to use. However, it does not make any significant difference as to the black levels.

Actually, I just checked about 20 screenshot comparisons I made (frame-for-frame), and composite is a hair brighter and barely, barely less detailed (neither of which I would consider an improvement).

There will be no difference in levels. The Y/C separator difference shows up as edge crawl and cross color, cross luma artifacts in the picture. What is your capture card?

Youtube has a lot of CLD-99 performance discussions. Somewhere in there they may explain the levels controls.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vrp1CK7OGUE&feature=related

Alternately you can fix levels in your editor.

My capture card is a Digital Rapids DRC-Stream 500:

http://www.videomediasolutions.com/dr_streamcards.html


It's a fairly high-end card, but I've never heard any mention of its Y/C separator or of it having any kind of comb filter. Any ideas?

I have the service manual for the CLD-99, and the "video level" adjustment seems insanely complex. It mentions short-circuiting something, then doing some other crazy stuff, then feeding it all into an oscilloscope. With my electronics skills I'm pretty sure I'd break the machine, and I sold my oscilloscope a few years ago...

[echo1434]

Here is a direct comparison of the composite and S-video outputs of my machine. I would love to hear opinions as to which looks better. I will refrain from mentioning which is which at this point as to eliminate any possible biases. However, all three stills are presented in the same top/bottom order in regards to output:







The most obvious difference to me is that one output displays a few pixels off center from the other, but in the end it's still centered within the viewable area. I can see a visual difference when flipping back and forth in a photo viewer, but I would hardly say it's anything to go "wow" about...

[edDV]

Say, I seem to recall those adjustments on some players (this is going way back). EdDV, master1, couldn't the adjustment be made without color bars? Like, visually? Not perfect, but . . .

Color Bars give a clear white and black reference. Visual requires you scan the entire movie to find peak white.

[jagabo]

The 'a' images are cleaner. 'b' has more dot crawl and rainbow artifacts. And oversharpening halos.

[robjv1]

In general I think the top one looks better. Both definitely present varying levels of slight noise, but the bottom one creates some unpleasant rainbow effects, as seen in parts of the first image and in that second palm tree

[echo1434]

I agree with the two above posts. I don't think it can really be denied that the bottom pics have more issues (notably the palm trees as previously mentioned).

And I suppose that would make S-video (the top "A" ones) the winner.

[edDV]

And I suppose that would make S-video (the top "A" ones) the winner.

No it is Y/C separator A vs Y/C separator B. S-video isn't at play.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dot_crawl
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/340508-DVD-Playback-Dot-Crawl?p=2118655&viewfull=1#post2118655

[jagabo]

In other words, the comb filter in your laserdisc player is better than the comb filter in your capture device.

[echo1434]

Yes, I know... I never claimed this as some ultimate conclusion. I should have added a disclaimer that it was the "winner for me."

However, the CLD-99's comb filter is not as bad as it's being made out to be here. I know I have heard that the CLD-97's is very poor by comparison and this was quite an upgrade at the time. Go ahead and knock something for being a decade or so old, but really, how much room for improvement is there really for a technology that is decades old?

Aside from the black (and white) issues I've been having, which I realize *are* correctable, I think my captures look pretty darn decent. So why should I drop to some other capture card and just "hope" that the composite output somehow magically plays out better? There's almost certainly going to be some kind of trade-off in another way... There always is.

Anyway, I don't think it's a good idea to say that composite is the only way to go and to tell people this as an absolute matter of fact unless you know and understand exactly what equipment someone is using.

I was almost to the point of deciding "Oh crap, I'm gonna have to transfer this stuff all over once again." But thankfully I checked for myself!

[sanlyn]

So now that you've solved your problem and answered your questions, you can proceed as before.