Pioneer Elite CLD-99 laserdisc player - black levels?

[echo1434]

So now that you've solved your problem and answered your questions, you can proceed as before.

Actually, my original and main question has yet to be answered by anyone - yet we have gone off onto a dozen different tangents.

I don't know why I keep getting picked on for expressing my opinions, yet when other people say things which are false (i.e., composite video on laserdisc is better in ALL cases), it slides right on by. I guess I just don't have enough posts to know anything.

There definitely is a hierarchy here, and you guys can have your site back.

Everyone, please don't bother responding to this thread anymore (mods, go ahead and delete it if you want). What a waste.

[intracube]

Actually, my original and main question has yet to be answered by anyone - yet we have gone off onto a dozen different tangents.

I know you asked people not to post any further replies, but I'm interested to find out where the problem lies.

What vectorscope did you use to make the measurements - dedicated hardware scope, or software. If it was the latter - did you feed it the original captured video or one of the still image screenshots?

I don't think you've understood Jagabo's point. Taking the computer display out of the equation for a minute; for a specific video file, different software media players can give different outputs (different colours, different levels, etc). The graphics drivers/software can also have an impact. So the measurements taken from a screenshot might be skewed by any one of these variables.

Also, I don't think you've said what media player you're using.

There are a couple of scenarios that I can see:
- your DVD player and VHS machine are generating correct black levels and your LD player is outputting raised blacks. Your capture card, graphics driver and/or media player is handling levels correctly.

- your DVD player and VHS machine are generating blacker-than-black levels, and your LD player is outputting correct levels. Your capture card, graphics driver and/or media player isn't handling levels correctly and isn't showing 7.5 IRE video as RGB '0' but is instead showing 0 IRE video as RGB '0'. In this scenario the VHS machine and computer errors would cancel out and appear to give the right levels.

[echo1434]

Well, since it seems you came in peace and are actually interested in the topic at hand, I will continue here...

I have tried using numerous software vector scopes (Edius, TMPGEnc Mastering Works, Vegas...) They all end up producing identical results. And here I go again, "answering my own question," but I'm quite sure it's the first scenario. I am very familiar with crushed blacks, and that's not what I'm getting with VHS, etc....

Also, I never did mention that I am actually using two computers connected to the same display. One is a machine from 2004 runing XP with an ATI Radeon Pro 9600 video card (only used for playback). This is the machine I do all my captures on with the Digital Rapids card because the hardware is not compatible with 64-bit Windows (thanks, Digital Rapids).

My new machine is running Windows 7 x64 with an NVIDIA GeForce GTX 560 Ti video card. I got this computer last year and it's obviously way faster, so I do all my editing/post-processing with it. The NVIDIA is a superior card (the ATI was always pretty iffy with embarrassingly bad capture quality), but in the end they render the same statistical results regarding black levels, and with the same programs mentioned above.

So yes, I'm pretty set on your scenario #1. I just want to know why the player is outputting such high levels. I thought it was ridiculous that the Pioneer service center couldn't give me a straight answer, so I figured some people here could answer it in a lick - but clearly that was not the case.

People keep saying "Just deal with it." It's kind of like saying "Just take this drug, who cares about getting to the root of your problem?" What's wrong with trying to pinpoint the issue? Didn't I mention that I may want to sell it someday and not sell someone a flawed product?

I'm sure the problem (if in fact this is an actual problem and just not something unique to the CLD-99 that has never been widely discussed), then I'm sure it's something that either doing an internal tweak (way too complicated for me) or replacing a part could fix.

No pun intended, I swear, but I don't think it has to be a black and white 1) deal with it or 2) get a new player. That's really all I was trying to get at.

Thanks for your reply.

[davexnet]

I think you have to live with what you have, and the way that it works. If an internal tweak to the player is too complicated,
too expensive, or no longer available to you, forget about it for now, and do the things you can do to mitigate the
problem. The thing that's already mentioned, but I don''t think you commented on, is that you can compensate for the
raised black by adjusting the controls in the capture filter at filter time. Here is a screen image of
a preview in Virtualdub with the capture filter settings available.

On the otherhand, you may be able to find a forum, or an enthusiasts group for your laserdisc player
where you can discuss your issues with other owners.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[edDV]

Yes, I know... I never claimed this as some ultimate conclusion. I should have added a disclaimer that it was the "winner for me."

However, the CLD-99's comb filter is not as bad as it's being made out to be here. I know I have heard that the CLD-97's is very poor by comparison and this was quite an upgrade at the time. Go ahead and knock something for being a decade or so old, but really, how much room for improvement is there really for a technology that is decades old?...

Actually NTSC/PAL comb filters improved greatly through the 2000s with 2D/3D technology. This was made necessary for HDTV upscale. Y/C separation artifacts had to be reduced before upscale. They also came down in cost when implemented on chips like this TI. In this case The 3D comb filter is implemented in the digital domain after A/D.
http://focus.ti.com.cn/pdfs/vf/vidimg/tvp5160.pdf

In most cases, a capture card will have a superior Y/C separator vs 90's consumer equipment. I'm not sure about your capture card.

[intracube]

jagabo and edDV are particuarly knowledgable in this area. The questions they asked and points they made were completely reasonable - there was important info missing from your first post, which without, the cause of the problem can't be determined. These guys are usually one or two steps ahead of whoever is seeking advice - don't discount what they say.

I am very familiar with crushed blacks, and that's not what I'm getting with VHS

There wouldn't necessarily be crushed blacks.

As belt and braces, take a look at this thread. Download the related video (grayblocks2.m2v) open in your media player, take a snapshot as you did before and measure the pixel values in photoshop or similar. The area round the edge of the test-chart should be RGB 0,0,0. The area of white directly under the first "235" text should be RGB 255,255,255. If you're getting those results your graphics card is set up correctly.

Regarding the service center; It sounds like the employee either didn't know or didn't care. Unless they specifically tested black setup, it could easily be missed.

I've managed to find the service manual for your player and there are video level adjustments, but it's certainly not trivial to change. The only practical options are to take it back to the service center, or if you want to risk it, find a reputable video repair shop and hand them a copy of the service manual. Whether they'd agree to take a look is up to them. Of course this is only *if* the Pioneer is found to be at fault, which still might not be the case.

Other option is to work around the problem by post-processing the captured video. Dropping the blacks down would be easy. If the highlights are clipped (above Y=235 but below Y=255) there are ways to retrieve them.

[edDV]

...
So yes, I'm pretty set on your scenario #1. I just want to know why the player is outputting such high levels. I thought it was ridiculous that the Pioneer service center couldn't give me a straight answer, so I figured some people here could answer it in a lick - but clearly that was not the case.
...

The frame caps you provided clearly show raised blacks (~2%) and excess gain causing white clipping at 255. Some were confirming the frame cap was done correctly.

Assuming the capture is representative, then you need to "deal with it" by internal adjustments or with an external proc amp before the capture card. You can't fix clipped whites after A/D. All this has been stated and you have your answer.

How much more of a straight answer do you want?

[intracube]

service manual for your player and there are video level adjustments

Page 45 if anyone's interested.

[edDV]

To do this properly you need a test signal Laserdisc such as Video Essentials and an oscilloscope.
http://www.videoessentials.com/products_VE_LaserPage.php
http://compare.ebay.com/like/300669722876?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&_lwgsi=y&cbt=y

The Vegas scopes could be used if the capture card can be calibrated from a known good source.

[echo1434]

jagabo and edDV are particuarly knowledgable in this area. The questions they asked and points they made were completely reasonable - there was important info missing from your first post, which without, the cause of the problem can't be determined. These guys are usually one or two steps ahead of whoever is seeking advice - don't discount what they say.

I am very familiar with crushed blacks, and that's not what I'm getting with VHS

There wouldn't necessarily be crushed blacks.

As belt and braces, take a look at this thread. Download the related video (grayblocks2.m2v) open in your media player, take a snapshot as you did before and measure the pixel values in photoshop or similar. The area round the edge of the test-chart should be RGB 0,0,0. The area of white directly under the first "235" text should be RGB 255,255,255. If you're getting those results your graphics card is set up correctly.

Thanks for the link.

Well, I have to say that both the screenshot of the video as well as the video itself look 100% perfect on my monitor, right down to the exact line where the colors are supposed to be noticeably shifting on each end. And yes, the measurements do all correlate in the end. I had already run similar tests calibrating my monitor before, but it's always good to have another source to verify.

Ok, so it's pretty clear something is wacky with my player. The white peaks are especially unacceptable.

Although I'm gonna have to say that I disagree that it's a simple matter of just adjusting brightness/contrast during capture. Sure, those will certainly change video levels, but they aren't a straight black/white setup setting. It will inevitably end up altering the video in some way when you change these settings enough to change the black/white levels to a suitable degree. These settings are just what they are said for — changing brightness and contrast — which while related to video levels, are not the exact same thing.

I mean, if what I just said wasn't true why would people care about the infamous "black level bug" which used to be discussed on this very forum quite a bit?

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/188009-Canopus-MPEG-PRO-EMR-help


I used to have this device by the way, and for the exact reason mentioned as well as other reasons I no longer have it...

Alright... Well, as I said I do have the service manual and am well aware of the what is involved in the internal video level adjustment, and I do know a local guy who *may* be willing to give this a whirl. He certainly has the know-how/equipment to do it, but whether he has the willingness or time is another question. But I did want to get some opinions before contacting him, and now I finally feel confident doing so.

And if for whatever reason he cannot do it, I will twist the arm of the service center I've been dealing with. I'm sure if I'm willing to pay they will do whatever. But I really did not want to go through all the hassle of shipping this clunky ancient machine halfway across the country only to tell them everything was fine, pay them for nothing, and then have them ship it back.

[davealtson]

I would purchase a copy of 'A Video Standard' or 'Video Essentials' and a vectorscope/Waveform monitor. They can be had very cheaply, and you will be able to check the outputs of your player.
It isn't all that hard to adjust the output on your player to bring it within spec.