I'm transferring about 100 VHS tapes - pixellation problems

[mw01908]

Hello everyone. I have read this site for years, but only just registered. I have also spent 2 weeks reading loads of forum posts about VHS transfer and the restoration section. A lot of the posts there are from around 2003 and I wanted to know if the advice has changed since then. It seems less people are doing PC capture now it is seems hard to even find a good card that captures to raw AVI now.

Most of the tapes are non-commerical and they are all on good quality tapes, in SP mode. I started off transferring using a Pansonic DMR EX75 DVD recorder and the source is a Sony SLV E730 VCR via composite. I then read all about the joys of a good deck on here and I have been given a faulty Mitsubishi HS-M1000 S-VHS deck. I've replaced the drive belt and cleaned heads etc and it works very well. The picture is better than the Sony, more colour detail, better sound, less picture noise, especially on the poorer and pre-recorded tapes via S-video out.

The problem I am getting is on music shows such as Top of the Pops where there is a lot of dancing, flashing lights, fast action etc, the panasonic results are pixlellated even on the 1hr XP mode. On some older tapes there is jitter on whites.

Is my DVD recorder any good for the job? Has it got an effective TBC? Would a proper external TBC help? I have the money to buy the kit I need, just don't want to buy the wrong kit!

I also want to transfer 5 tapes of the entire Live Aid concert, but it seems that at XP quality this will take so many DVD's wouldn't I be better capturing to the PC with a TBC and encoding to a something like WMV or DivX at a very high bitrate and then storing on a hard drive? My other question is one of the newer codecs such as MPEG4, WMV or Divx the best format ? - rather than DVD_MPEG2 for the future, as on the HD flat screens all the pixellation errors will show up even more. I currently have a CRT so I am not seeing any blur from a flat screen. Again, the live aid concert will be tricky to encode due to the fast moving action.

Really the bottom line is that my DVD recorder results are not as good as the original tapes and that is really annoying. How can I best improve things? Any comments would be great.

[orsetto]

Here and there you simply run up against the wall of "practical limitations". If the video tapes are quite old, and especially if the material was presented live or shot on video, you will get transfer issues at points of intense lighting changes and/or fast motion. VHS presents certain problems to many encoders, flaws in the signal that are invisible during analog playback (or to our own eyes) can completely disorient and destabilize digital encoders.

I'm sure you will get many recommendations as to how you can do a PC capture and ameliorate some of these problems in software/hardware. That is all to the good, but before embarking on a long painstaking project I suggest you try the simple experiments first. Try another VCR with your Panasonic, and also try another DVD recorder with your Mitsubishi vcr. Mix things up a bit. There is an element of alchemy to this VHS-to-DVD transfer process, some DVD recorders and PC capture cards just mate better with some VCRs than they do others. Does your Mitsubishi have switchable noise filters or TBC? Try turning them off: the digital signal enhancers built into high-end VCRs sometimes backfire, causing the symptoms you describe. It isn't always possible to get low noise, sharp detail and good color simultaneously without incurring additional defects like jitter, rolling and pixelation. On some tapes, you have to make do with an "average" capture from an "average" vcr as the best possible choice.

For me, its hard enough to keep track of whats necessary to get good DVD/MPEG2 transfers, so I can't advise whether moving to DiVX or AVI would be that big an improvement. With something like 15 hours of Live Aid, again you have compromises. Making 15 XP-speed DVDs would be rather clumsy and inconvenient for later viewing, you could drop to SP to be more practical and take the slight quality hit. Or, use your Pannys flex record feature to put 2.5-3 hours per DVD. Additionally, make hard-drive AVI or DiVX backups, so you have two different codings/media to choose from on playback. Depending on the coding, you could burn several hours of DiVX to a DVD and it would play on DiVX-capable DVD players. Do keep in mind everything looks like hell when played on a so-called "HDTV" lcd television: when you switch over from your CRT you'll definitely see a difference. Plasma will look closer to a CRT, but plasma technology is all but dead now. The next great hope for decent display of old SD material like VHS transfers is the new OLED displays, which should be available at affordable prices in the next 2-3 years.

[SatStorm]

Yeap, true that!

The build in TBC (line TBC) of my current VCR, create problems on old noise and specific tapes, I once recorded with a specific VCR some 20 years ago.
Also SECAM tapes are Hell with this TBC feature on.

The only cure: The PC root. And forget mpeg 2. It is H264 time.

I have 100% success only the hard way: I use a frame TBC unit (ACE, not on sale any more) and I capture to DV using canopus AVC100. Then, I encode to H264 using x264 at a "Crazy" bitrate like 2000kb/s
Overkill but the only way to preserve the VHS tape "as is".

For DVD, I have to filter: Neatvideo is the only thing I use anymore, with some MSU filters.

I wonder: Will I ever finish with my tapes? Probably not...

[mw01908]

Thanks for the replies so far so quickly! Orsetto, l I have already tried 3 different VCR's as a source for Panasonic EX75. An old JVC from about 1985, the Sony and the Mitsubishi. The JVC is the least good. The Mitsubishi does not have a TBC as far I know. It does have something it calls "Intelligent Picture Control" which can be switched on and off. The switch seems to relate to the sharpness control, which is disabled when the feature is turned on. I suspect the feature is a kind of automatic sharpness control. The manual says, "When it is set to on, the vcr automatically samples the quality of the tape and enhances picture sharpness and resolution with high grade tapes". I have adjusted the sharpness with the switch off. If the sharpness is reduced the noise reduces and the DVD pixelation reduces but the picture looks blurred. Its a trade off.

Can you recommend a good PAL DVD recorder that is good for this job and maybe has a TBC? A friend of mine has a Pioneer DVR 520H, he says its good for VHS but I can't find any on ebay (or any JVC S-video decks with TBC's that are recommended here either!)

I wasn't planning on replacing my CRT until decent OLED flat screens become available, but maybe I will get a plasma if the CRT dies before OLED TV's are affordable.

I am about 15% through transferring the tapes and now I have found I am not happy with it and wonder if I should carry on until I find a better way of transferring with better results. It would be a pain to have to re-do them all from scratch so i am trying to 'get it right first time'.

Satstorm, I was going to get a Canopus device, it sounded good but then I read what Lordsmurf said about these dv codecs compressing the video making the result worse compared to an uncompressed avi capture. 2000kbps is not that crazy, is it? I just did a test encode of one of my dv cam videos to divx at 9000kbps and even then the video was a little pixellated. I expected it to have been at least as good as a mpeg2 at that bitrate. If you can get really good results with H264 at 2000kbps I'd be interested knowing how you do it please.

[orsetto]

The Pioneer 520 is an excellent machine but NOT good for VHS transfer, if it "likes" the tape it makes a great copy but if it doesn't "like" the tape the copy is terrible. My preferred DVD recorders are the more recent Pioneers, the 550 and 560 series (in the UK these might be sold as "LX" models, not sure what the current European models are). These have much more stable encoders for VHS input, I have never fed them a tape they did not do well with. For the VCR, really good PAL models are sometimes hard to find. If you didn't care for the JVCs, the most popular VCR among our UK members is the Panasonic NV-FS200. It has a good TBC and decent noise reduction.

I use the American version of the NV-FS200 (AG1980) for some tapes, for others I use a Mitsubishi HS-HD2000 D-VHS vcr which has a TBC/DNR similar to the JVCs. Tapes that don't play well on either I put into a simpler Panasonic AG2560.

[SatStorm]

DV is an issue for NTSC not for PAL. Lord Smurf's experience is about NTSC and indeed, they have an issue there with the colour sample. We, the PAL users, don't have to deal with it. So, for us in Europe, the DV root remains the best root.

2.000Kb/s is "crazy" if you encode at H264 and D1 Framesize (720x576). It's an overkill like saying, capture realtime mpeg 2 at 15.000kb/s.

Anyway the root goes like this: Capture to DV, then encode raw to H264 using Virtualdub or some other tool (after all, all are based on x264). Burn the result to a DVD-R as data. This is the only way to keep 100% your VHS tape in a digital form.
Sometimes, I use around 3.100kb/s for a 3 hour tape. It feets on a 4.7 DVD-R that way.

Where you gonna playback those files? On PC, any NMT based solution, probably if you manage to autor them to your PS3 or BD Player.

At the same time, master Neat Video, and process your DV capture with it using Virtualdub. Then frameserve to your mpeg 2 encoder, buy an iCore 7 and wait... wait... wait... That way, you might be able to have on DVD a "perfect" VHS source that looks "restored" and "enhanced".

Now you know why we all end up with DVD Standalone Recorders: Play tape, hit "record" and that's it. Far from perfect but realtime. At least that way, we gonna finish with our archives one day.

[lordsmurf]

PAL VHS tapes still have color issues -- I deal with those too, and I work with European studios that do.

PAL DV25 is still using 4:2:0 colorspace compression, which is fine for VHS transfer. It's that 4:1:1 colorspace that doesn't really work well for VHS conversion -- fine for shooting, sucks for converting. DVC Pro 50 (4:2:2) is better for VHS conversion, if using DV based solutions.

[mw01908]

Ah ok, this is a great help everyone! Thanks. So if I just bought myself a Canopus device and converted to H264 for the future and I can store them all on a big hard drive or media player which will play H264, sounds like an good idea.

So what to buy. I am hoping to get a VCR with full TBC anyway. Is the Canopus 300 (the one with built in TBC) best or should I buy the 110 and get the AVT8710 TBC to go with it? I have seen the 8710 for £140 brand new.

Alternatively I read here that some DV Cams with A/D passthrough do a really good job with their own TBC's (the long test pattern thread)

Can anyone here see slight pixellation on DV captures? My Panny DV Cam (which won't do A/D) does this but I am capturing my own movies on the DV-avi setting in windows movie maker. It could be my LCD PC screen?

[SatStorm]

Of course PAL tapes have issues. Plenty of them. But converting a PAL VHS to DV is the best you can on a consumer base.
And since I find you, lordsmurf, I just discover a 1982 SECAM tape, which the only way to capture it with colour, is to use my old - old - old - old BT878 capture card. All modern solutions failed!!! (my ACE (TBC) also couldn't handle it).
The most weird thing I ever had to deal! The bad news: 4 - 5 tapes like this waits me...

@mw01908
DV Cams work OK. If you find one, you won't need something else.

I don't read good comments for Canopus 300. Old ones (like A100/50 or A110/55 seems to do the job cheaper. Combine them with a TBC and at the same price you have separate units. In the future, TBC may help you capturing - the analogue way - locked channels from freesat / sky on SD framesize.

[vhelp]

I'm not from PAL land, so I don't really have any experience with this source medium. So these are just my observations of the formats and processes as I've used them for NTSC and how I might relate some of differing aspects between the two regional formats.

Speaking of 4:2:0 sampling, there is the possibility that the video could become degraded if the calling "decoder" is not using an affecient colorspace and sampling algorithem, and this could give the perception that 420 is not as good a format to use and that 422 would be a better alternative. It could leave you perspecting incorrectly, and wanting 422 codec/decoder instead when not entirely necessary. As long as the 420 decoder is up-to-date (in terms of optimum algorithm) then 420 is (would) be all you need to transfer from PAL vhs straight to pal dvd for example, assuming that the 420 format in the vhs (or dv) is the same format as used in the mpeg-2 for pal/ntsc.

4:2:0 video source

There's nothing wrong with upconverting (upsampling) to 422. But even doing this could degrade the video by some marjonal degree if the codec/decoder is not optimum, or unecessary. About the only time you would want to go from 420 to 422 for the codec/decoder routine is when your work/project requires additional processes: ie, post filtering, etc., and such tools or filters are build around 422 format, though there are plenty build around the 420 format. It just depends on the user and his/her skills and crafty-ness, etc. Other functions/applications cold dictate the user to the 422 format. But I was just pointing out that its not always entirely necessary to go from 420 to 422 just because of other common practices or reasons of past video processing.

If the video project entails simple 420 to 420 (ie, vhs/dv to dvd) then no upconversion/sampling is necessary.
If the video project entails additional post processing, then it depends on various factors and is more likely a requirement to go from 420 to 422, and then later, back to 420, using optimum tools/algorithms in these processes.

The bottom line here is that it should be a smooth transition between 420 to 420 if that is the direction, but don't forget to factor in the end formats compression and how effective/skilled you were in converting over to it: ie, dvd or h264

I know that here in NTSC land, we almost always use the 420 to 422 route (or dv 411 to 422) for virtually everything, from opening/ decoding a video to writing out a new video (422) file to re-encoding to other format: ie, h264, etc., and so on and so forth. Most our decoder algorithems are pretty up to date and optimized for this apsect of video dealings because we've been there in the past with these degraded videos due to the color space and up/down-sampling algos.

The other issue of degraded videos has to do the equipment used in all these processes which can confused it confound the end-user with the issues already laid out above and then some. But that another saga.

-vhelp 5103

[lordsmurf]

Canpus ADVC300 is waste of money -- filters are poor, and it does not have an internal TBC (at least nothing useful, either for signal or image cleaning), contrary to the BS salesmen might spout. Separate TBC, separate ADVC, as satstorm says, would be better. Cheaper DV cam with passthrough might be just as good.

I have a VCR that plays SECAM (all but France) to PAL really well, then I cap that. I almost never get SECAM tapes.

[deuce8pro]

My recommendation (and my results are excellent):

fast forward/rewind all tapes multiple times depending on how old they are.
Each tape needs to be tight around the reels.

JVC SVHS (do a forum search for models) with TBC/DNR,
I truely prefer the picture quality of these decks,
always leave the tbc/dnr on and set to auto/norm, never use the calibration,
some tapes you are gonna need to turn off the tbc/dnr just btw they play
and/or how hot the colors look. Every 10 hours that you've used the deck you need to open the deck up
and wipe down the guide posts inside the deck as sometimes there can be build up,
residue from the tapes itself. The heads itself shouldnt be cleaned unless
you havent done it in a while otherwise every 6 months. Better yet get a pro
cleaning every 6 months.

s-video wire, not composite/component you want the colors seperated
I use AR Pro II Series

Panasonic ES10 dvd recorder simply as a pass through frame synchronizer,
line in NR turned on. black set input set to the darker and output set to darker

another s-video cable, AR Pro II Series or a very good cable, do some experiments,
you want as much detail and sharpness as possible out of any cable, as well
as natural colors. You need to have an eye for that kind of thing as far as color wise.

purchase either a minidv or digital8 camera with the analog to digital conversion
capabilities and tbc/dnr. You can get one lightly used on ebay.

Get a firewire and plug it into a JVC DRM-100 dvd recorder

The filters make the finished dvd look better then the vhs and you shouldnt have
any pixelation issues. I wouldnt recommend recording more then 90 mins on a disc.

[mw01908]

I have been looking for the JVC decks for the last few weeks but cannot find any. However I have managed to find a Panasonic NV-HS1000B. Looking forward to hooking that up and seeing what results I get. It has a TBC I think but I'm not sure if it has DNR.

[lordsmurf]

I had a JVC deck for sale last week -- it's gone now. (Still have the DataVideo TBC-1000, however). Those decks go quickly, when available. Keep looking, you'll come across one in due time.

[danno78]

Consumer Panasonic Pal models with TBC and DNR from older to the last model built:
Panasonic NV-FS 200
Panasonic NV-HS 950
Panasonic NV-HS 1000
Panasonic NV-HS 860
Panasonic NV-HS 930
Panasonic NV-HS 960
Panasonic NV-SV 121

[2Bdecided]

I don't think 2Mbps H.264 for 720x576i50 is overkill.

Though I think putting interlaced video into H.264 gives unpredictable results with PC playback. When PCs play MPEG-2 off DVD, most software expects interlacing - not so with x264.


FWIW, if you're critical, it's near impossible to encode the most challenging interlaced content to MPEG-2 at DVD bitrates without visible artefacts. Some encoders are better than others in this regard. On a PC, try HCenc (free), or Procoder (not free!).

TOTP? You could record the repeats off UKTV Gold or where ever they are showing now. Expect even more MPEG artefacts from these modern re-broadcasts though!

Cheers,
David.

[lordsmurf]

Consumer Panasonic Pal models with TBC and DNR from older to the last model built:
Panasonic NV-FS 200
Panasonic NV-HS 950
Panasonic NV-HS 1000
Panasonic NV-HS 860
Panasonic NV-HS 930
Panasonic NV-HS 960
Panasonic NV-SV 121

Added to VCR sticky. Thanks. https://forum.videohelp.com/topic347374.html

[mw01908]

Hi guys. UK Gold don't show TOTP anymore as far as I know but it is being shown sunday nights on German Satellite channel Eins Festival. I am not sure if it had been edited about like TOTP2 or if its the original show with the english soundtrack. Thanks to Noemi for informing me of this.

I have the NV-HS1000B here now! I can confirm it has a TBC. Doesn't look like it has DNR. It has no control for DNR but it does have something called AI....from the manual it says, 'playback performed in the state which achieves optimum picture quality'. With AI on, the picture sharpness control cannot be adjusted.

I wonder if AI is really just an automatic sharpness control?

As far as the DVD transfers go using it, yes it is a good playback picture but the quality of my captures have not really improved. I have a DVD of a capture a friend made of the same test tape using a Pioneer DVR - 520 H for capture, no TBC - internal or external and only a standard Toshiba VHS player with DNR as the source on composite and it is much better than my captures!! I can only conclude that the reason for my poorer results must be the Panasonic DMR EX 75 I have. Apparently those Pioneer DVD recorders do have some good processing to clean up VHS tapes. My panny is supposed to have something but it doesn't do a very good job! Although it could also be the (lack of?) DNR on this NVHS1000B?

I'm a bit confused now, do I get a ES10/canopus, external TBC or keep looking for a JVC VHS deck with TBC/DNR? Or all 4?

[danno78]

I wonder if AI is really just an automatic sharpness control?

You're right.
From HS 950 and over this function (CVC Crystal Viev Control) is always on and cannot be
disabled. Has tended to accentuate the details. Therefore Panasonic offers a bit more noisy image compared to the JVC. In contrast JVC offers a soft image. JVC DNR cleans better compared to the Panasonic DNR, it is especially effective with chroma noise.

If you want a verry clean picture from vcr then, JVC with DigiPure is the best choice. TBC from es10 and ES15 works well but DNR is better from Pioneer models with NEC encoders. Also have a verry good TBC inside. These models (550) are highly appreciated by users who transfer VHS tapes to DVD.

[2Bdecided]

If you buy a used ADVC110 from eBay, you can probably sell it again for the same price, so the experiment will cost you nothing.

It probably won't help though. The ADVC110 does an excellent job of capturing exactly what it is fed, into DV format as well as can be done. It doesn't improve or stabilise the video at all - whereas many DVD recorders automatically include some stabilisation, noise reduction, and little tweaks to "improve" the picture.

Cheers,
David.

[mw01908]

I've been looking out for used Canopus boxes on ebay but none are a reasonable price. They are at almost new prices. I have got a Pioneer DVR 550 after researching and on recommendation on this thread. Unfortunately I am very disappointed with it. The captures are even more pixellated than my old Panasonic recorder! Far more pixellated - even on the 15Mbps setting XP+!! So it must be the MPEG encoding the noise as blocks... not a bitrate problem. I feel like packing all my videos away and giving up. Its taking over my life!, not to mention the waste of money.

If I buy a Canopus will I get the same problem?

[SatStorm]

There is another way. Extreme, insane, but maybe it is you answer...
It is for me, but I'm not a normal user.

Forget mpeg2. It's not enough without filtering. I know, because I tried all alternatives there are there, for 10 years now! If the source is noisy, even 15.000 won't be enough. It needs filtering. No time for that.

So, move to the next step: Hauppauge HD PVR USB. Capture realtime to mpeg 4 to TS format and burn the results on DVD-Rs and watch them through BD players.

Here is something I'm into those days: https://forum.videohelp.com/topic368189.html

You gonna find a sample from jagabo to download and see yourself.

That way, you can have 1:1 VHS to something digital in a reasonable size. 3 Hours per DVD5, is not bad.

Find a TBC too. It helps.

[2Bdecided]

Something you can try for free: share 30 seconds of the best result you've achieved so far. Just crop 30 seconds of m2v from the VOB using, say, DGindex, and upload the clip to mediafire. Then we can look at it, and say what, if any, improvement you can expect. At the moment, everyone is just second-guessing what you have - whereas you might have something far worse or far better than we're all imagining.

Cheers,
David.

[2Bdecided]

even on the 15Mbps setting XP+!!

No such thing (unless it's making a raw data disc). 9.8Mbps is the limit for DVD video.

Cheers,
David.

[mw01908]

Correct. But this DVD recorder will record on the hard drive at 15Mbps on its XP+ setting. If you try to record on the DVD at that setting it goes to the XP 9Mbps setting. But the point I was making is that even using such a high bitrate did not improve the encoding of noise as macroblocks.

[victoriabears]

Have you tried the panny dvd recorder on SP, and have you considered a Phillips dvd recorder ,,latest model 3570H?

What vcr were your tapes recorded on?

The panny vcr's listed are the best for PAL in my experience

[mw01908]

Hi I don't know which VCR the tapes were recorded on as I didn't record them. The tapes are from the 70's and 80's. But certainly, different tapes play better on certain machines. The current video tape I've been using as a test funnily enough looks best on the Sony and not the Panny 1000. I had not considered Phillips are they good? I think my next plan is getting a Canopus and converting to H264. Trying that. I can also get hold of a JVC DR-MH30 DVD recorder if that is any good?

I will upload a capture clip for you all to judge within the next few days also.

[victoriabears]

I think the wisdom would be trying to turn vhs into h264 would not be any better than dvd.

I have had such varied experience with different tapes/vcr's that you could well find the JVC would work well, the Philips is good as well, I have driven myself nuts trying every possibility. For 100 tapes decide how much you want to spend

[mw01908]

We never had any of these problems with analogue video! I'm also wondering if even recording to DV - AVI would turn out pixellated. At times like this I hate digital video.

[SatStorm]

There is analogue noise and there is digital noise.

Colour bleed is analogue noise and doesn't exist on digital sources.
Macroblocks is digital noise and doesn't exist on the analogue sources.

Mosquito noise (a.k.a pixellaration) is a problem because of the digital - analogue convertion, the interlace nature of analogue noise and many other things, that we all try hard to solve, some time with success, some time without success.

Personally, I don't go back to analogue! Digital is good, Converting to digital is the pain in the ***