Can't properly DeInterlace or IVTC

[igoryonya]

I have a 25fps PAL Interlaced DVD source.
It's interlaced, when you look frame by frame. The video properties also say, it's interlaced.
I tired to inverse telecine interlaced videos first, then I tried bob.
Then I tried bob -> inverse telecine and inverse telecine -> bob.
Nothing worked. After all tries listed above I still have a lot of frames interlaced.
I can't figure out what's wrong with this video.
I don't want to do a regular deinterlacing, I need to reconstruct the original frames, at least to almost the original.

I've created a sample of the troubled video. Could you guys/gals look at it and help me to figure out how to reconstruct the progressive frames, please. It's about 7mb.
http://acmecode.com/temp/DVD-25frames-interlaced-sample(h264).avi

[guns1inger]

Is this cut directly from the source, or has it been re-encoded first ?

If it has been re-encoded, you are better off posting a chucnk form the source instead.

[igoryonya]

25fps PAL Interlaced DVD source.
I saved this chunk as unedited lossless interlaced H264 format.
...and I just finished uploading it.

[poisondeathray]

You would be better off posting a sample of the unprocessed source, preferably with some horizontal panning & movement, but from the small sample it looks like plain vanilla interlaced TFF

I just used yadif to deinterlace, and set the proper 4/3 aspect ratio

yadif.mp4

[igoryonya]

What's TFF?
I don't know how to extract the original original vob frames so I don't have to send an entire Gig of video file, that's why I uploaded h264 lossless interlaced sample that, when I compared frame by frame, looks the same as the original.

The problem is:
If it was just plainly interlaced, it's some kind of weird interlacing, because, when I looked at the individual fields, often
they look still interlaced. I am confused.
And I don't really want to use some kind of blending or losing detail deinterlacing.
I need to reconstruct the original progressive frames.
I know, it's not going to be the same quality as the original, but close.
At this state, when I deinterlace, even when I BOB with double frame rating, I get a lot of interlaced looking frames. Probably every other frame looks still interlaced after deinterlacing.
I don't need the deinterlacing to be blanded. I need to have solid progressive frames.
I've done it before, sometimes with BOB, sometimes with IVTC, sometimes with both, if the video was interlaced after telecined and vice versa. Usually, I get pretty good progressive nonblended frames as a result, but I am having trouble with this particular video. I can't figure out what has been done with it.

I will look at your yadiff sample.
About 4x3, I never crop the frames and never add black borders. I always keep the original video and upsize it to make it correct aspect ratio with square pixels. I will keep it 16x9.

[guns1inger]

TFF = Top Field First

[poisondeathray]

TFF is top field first, you need to get the correct field order to deinterlace it properly

I thought this was a 4/3 PAL DVD ? Your sample was 5/4 but I thought you were just lazy and forgot to set the aspect ratio

I just used yadif because it was quick, and the quality is decent. If you want a higher quality deinterlacer, you might try yadifmod + nnedi. If you want a higher quality bobber, try tempgaussmc_beta1

I can't tell on the sample if there is blending, if you upload a better sample with movement and identifiable objects like faces, it would be easier to analyze - you might be able to use one of the restore functions if there is blending. I can't tell if the graphics are supposed to look like that or not.

[igoryonya]

If it's a regular TFF deinterlacing, why do I still get almost all frames interlaced looking after BOB?
I used Top Field First in BOB.

[poisondeathray]

If you use

AssumeTFF()
SeparateFields()

and step through it, the cube sequence looks pure interlaced; but the "shattered" graphics before it I can't tell if it there are blends there or if it supposed to look like that

[igoryonya]

If your sample that you got downloaded is less then 7Mb, you probably downloaded it before I finished uploading. I didn't realize that somebody would reply to my post so quickly after I posted, so I posted the message before I uploaded the video. I, actually was doing the uploading at while posting, but post was saved before the upload finished uploading.
Maybe you have an incomplete sample, because, there is movement. The cube is rotating. Bunch of squares are flying and more stuff where interlacing is clearly visible, even after I BOBed.

Please, tell me if you have the complete 7mb sample. If you do, I will make some sample with motion from the middle of the video.

[poisondeathray]

If it's a regular TFF deinterlacing, why do I still get almost all frames interlaced looking after BOB?
I used Top Field First in BOB.

A "dumb" bob will leave artifacts. You can use a smart bobber like yadif (mode=1,order=1) , and the picture will be "clearer" with fewer deinterlacing artifacts left behind

Yes, It is the 7MB sample <15sec. You can download the yadif sample I posted to check, it's ~1MB only

You can use DGIndex to split a sample from the VOB , or DGSplit

[manono]

No one wants your H.264 reencode. Upload the source VOB, a 10 second or so piece with movement. Use the [ and ] buttons of DGIndex to cut a piece. Open a VOB, scroll to the section you want and isolate it. Then File->Save Project and Demux Video. Upload the resulting M2V.

[igoryonya]

I am using "bob doubler" internal filter from VirtualDub V1.8.5
I will try your suggestion about yadif and tempgaussmc_beta1.

I looked at your yadif.mp4 sample. As I what I was saying, it had a lot of blended frames.

I've created an other sample from the middle of the video with motion and faces. It's about 6.7Mb. I hope, it's a good sample for you to look at. I uploaded it.

http://acmecode.com/temp/DVD-25frames-interlaced-sample(h264)-faces-motion.avi

[igoryonya]

OK, I will DGIndex and upload it. I just didn't know how to cut vob directly before.

[poisondeathray]

Yes that's a better sample, and you're right there is blending. Upload a proper unprocessed .m2v sample, and manono will probably give you some nice restore function to "fix" it

[lordsmurf]

See if this is at all helpful to you:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/dvdguides/convert/standards/standards.htm

www.100fps.com may have tips too.

[igoryonya]

yes, 100fps.com is good. I read an entire site a while ago and it helped me a lot, but I didn't find in it anything helpful for my current situation.
I will take a look at the digi faq site, see if learn something new.

[igoryonya]

I uploaded m2v more then 10 sec. DGIndex vob extract.
http://acmecode.com/temp/VTS_02_1.demuxed.m2v
11Mb

[manono]

It was converted to PAL 25fps from film 24fps by field blending. This works pretty well to restore it to the source 24fps:

Yadif(Mode=1,Order=1)
SRestore(FRate=24)

But there's some nasty chroma bleeding that I don't think can be removed. SRestore is part of the R_Pack available here:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=95924

More information, especially about the other DLLs you'll need, here:

http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/Srestore

[igoryonya]

Those are avisynth commands, right?

manono, may I ask, how do you figure it out?
Is it because you are used to dealing with videos, it's a professional intuition, or there is some method, some utility, some info tool, where by looking at it, you can tell?

Thanx

[manono]

Those are avisynth commands, right?

Yes, it can't be fixed without the use of Avisynth.

manono, may I ask, how do you figure it out?

First you separate the fields or bob it to confirm the presence of blended fields. If it's from a PAL DVD, then almost invariably it's supposed to be 23.976 or 24fps. About the only exception is if it's a silent film with different framerates. You can do this:

Yadif(Mode=1,Order=1)
SRestore(FRate=25)

and then count the duplicate frames every 25 frames, but that's liable to confuse you because there won't be one every 25 frames, but there should be an average of one every 25 frames. So, then put on:

Yadif(Mode=1,Order=1)
SRestore(FRate=24)

and look to make sure there aren't too many remaining blended frames, and that there aren't too many missing frames or duplicate frames. These unblenders aren't perfect, but they give you back something a heck of a lot better than the source.

Is it because you are used to dealing with videos...

When you've looked at enough of these DVDs, you pretty much know what to look for and what to do about it. Your own country's DVD production companies (Russico, in particular) have foisted enough of these horrible-looking things on us in NTSC land.

[rbatty11]

manono, I hope I'm not hijacking but i have a similar conversion i'm trying to process --> interlaced PAL dvd to NTSC... I think?? I say, "I think", because the original PAL dvd is odd. Let me try to describe it.

I think the source was made for PAL TV. Wish I could upload a clip but i'm at work.. will upload later if you need me to. Let me know. After making a d2v file (latest DGIndex) and simple avs script, i imported the avs file into Virtualdub to examine the frames. There are scenes at a time where it's progressive (or so it appears) and then other scenes are a combo of 12 interlaced frames for every 13 progressive frames... ??? I scanned most of the video and every time i see interlaced frames, it's always 12i per 13p frames throughout the entire video. ???

Is it possible to convert this to NTSC dvd.. or forget it?? Maybe the original source was NTSC to begin with and it was converted to PAL (as in the OP's case)? As usual, I'd appreciate any help. Thanks.

[jagabo]

a combo of 12 interlaced frames for every 13 progressive frames... ???

Thats pulldown of 24p to 25i. Every 12th frame is displayed for 3 fields instead of 2. 24 NTSC frames become 25 PAL frames (50 fields).

I think TFM() can take care of that.

[rbatty11]

Thanks, jagabo. Couple of questions:

1. I am deinterlacing, correct? So deinterlace to the original 24fps, then use pulldown to 30fps?

2. Trying to make sense of this since I'm so accustomed to doing simple DG method of PAL to NTSC with no audio adjustment needed. I'm guessing I cant do that with this, right?

3. Is there a guide/tutorial using avisynth and deinterlacing using TFM()?

[jagabo]

1. I am deinterlacing, correct?

You are restoring the original film frames by recombining fields, an inverse telecine.

So deinterlace to the original 24fps, then use pulldown to 30fps?

Yes.

2. Trying to make sense of this since I'm so accustomed to doing simple DG method of PAL to NTSC with no audio adjustment needed. I'm guessing I cant do that with this, right?

You will not be changing the running time so there is no need to adjust the audio. This is why the 24->50 pulldown was used in the first place. (It does give you two small jerks every second when watched on a PAL TV though.)

3. Is there a guide/tutorial using avisynth and deinterlacing using TFM()?

I've never done this particular type of IVTC. You'll need to use TDecimate(mode=2) to eliminate the duplicate frames TFM() will leave behind.

WhateverSource()
TFM()
TDecimate(mode=2) #defaults to 23.976 fps

Maybe Manono knows a more refined method.

[manono]

WhateverSource()
TFM()
TDecimate(mode=2) #defaults to 23.976 fps

Maybe Manono knows a more refined method.

You pretty much nailed it, except I'd do it for 24fps using Mode=0:

TFM()
TDecimate(Mode=0,Cycle=25,CycleR=1)

And then, if for NTSC DVD, apply DGPulldown afterwards with the Custom box checked and 24->29.97fps filled in.

It's actually not a bad way to convert film to PAL. You keep the correct speed of the action and the correct pitch for the audio. Except for the "stutters" that jagabo mentioned. We, in NTSC land, because of 3:2 pulldown, are pretty much used to having jerky video. PAL people are much more liable to object to that method of conversion.

By the way, I have a PAL DVD like that. My Oppo sends it to the HDTV with one "jerk" every second. Because its Faroudja deinterlacer is so good, I can't figure out if it's field matching to create the dupe frame, or using its interpolating deinterlacer. My guess is that it's deinterlacing it. One frame stutter every second is very slightly more noticeable than are 2 field stutters per second, which you get when watching on an interlaced CRT display. Neither is very serious, in my opinion.

[jagabo]

WhateverSource()
TFM()
TDecimate(mode=2) #defaults to 23.976 fps

Maybe Manono knows a more refined method.

You pretty much nailed it, except I'd do it for 24fps using Mode=0:

TFM()
TDecimate(Mode=0,Cycle=25,CycleR=1)

Do you know if these 24/25 fps telecine transfers are slowed down to 23.976 fps before the pulldown? Or do they start with 24 fps? I suppose it might vary from DVD to DVD.

[manono]

Do you know if these 24/25 fps telecine transfers are slowed down to 23.976 fps before the pulldown?

I haven't seen enough of them to be sure. Plus, to be sure, you'd have to count a whole lot of frames. I've seen a ton of the PAL2NTSC ones and most of them are 24.975 (probably because of the drop_frame flag, which you don't have in PAL land). However, I'm making allowances here. Even if it's supposed to be 23.976fps, by making it 24fps I'm allowing for an unblender screwup from time to time, and for there to be, at most, one duplicate frame every 40 seconds or so. But, if it's supposed to be 24fps and it's decimated to 23.976fps, you'll get a dropped frame every 40 seconds or so. A missing frame is usually more noticeable than is a duplicate frame. I also figure that they've begun with a 24fps film as a source, rather than a 23.976fps DVD or other already drop_framed source.

[rbatty11]

OK, I'm trying to keep up here. I downloaded most recent version of avisynth 2.5xx, DGDecode and the TIVTC (which includes TDecimate and TFM filters). This is the the avs script I tried:

loadplugin("dgdecode.dll")
mpeg2source("...d2v")
TFM()
TDecimate(Mode=2)
lanczosresize(720,480)
converttoyuy2()

(will change line #4 to TDecimate(Mode=0,Cycle=25,CycleR=1), per manano's instruction)

I get an avisynth error for line #3, TFM() (does not recognize). Am I missing further instructions within the parenthesis for TFM? Or am I missing something else?

[jagabo]

Put all the plugins in Avisynth's plugins folder and they'll load automatically.