PAL to NTSC Color Problem

[Drakul]

Hello,

I am having a color problem when converting a DVD from PAL to NTSC. The color appears "faded".

I have read every guide here at the Forum, but have been more confused than ever. I am trying to do a FULL conversion including menus, audio tracks and subtitles.

I am using the DGIndex+AVISYNTH+CCE+DGPULLDOWN technique.

The conversion comes allright, but the color seems a bit lighter than the original.

I have the following AVS Script, since one of my sources are in progressive format :

LoadPlugin("DGDecode.dll")
MPEG2Source("trailer.d2v")
ConvertToYUY2()
LanczosResize(720,480)

Other script for the interlaced is as follows :

LoadPlugin("DGDecode.dll")
LoadPlugin("decomb521.dll")
LoadPlugin("convolution3d.dll")
MPEG2Source("special2.d2v")
FieldDeinterlace(full=false)
ConvertToYUY2()
Convolution3d (preset="movieHQ")
LanczosResize(720,480)
crop(8,12,-8,-12)
AddBorders(8,12,8,12)

Can Anyone help?

BTW, I only have 2 DVDs to convert, so this is a one time job. Any help is appreciated... Sorry about the bad english... it is not my native language...

CCE settings


Comparison images (updated images - same frame)

[jagabo]

It would help if you posted the exact same frame from both videos.

I resized the NTSC frame to make it the same size as the PAL frame then used AviSynth to to compare the two images. Except for the places where something is in a different place the colors differed by only a few units. That amount is common any time you recompress a video. And it is common for any two nearby frames to differ by that much.

v1 = ImageSource("p.bmp")
v2 = ImageSource("n.bmp").BilinearResize(720,576)
sub = v1.subtract(v2) 
substrong = sub.levels(112,1,144,0,255) 

return(\
StackVertical(StackHorizontal(v1.subtitle("PAL"),v2.subtitle("NTSC")),\
StackHorizontal(sub.subtitle("Difference"),substrong.subtitle("Difference amplified"))))

Where the two videos match exactly is medium gray (RGB = 128,128,128). Where they differ will be different from that shade of gray by the amount they differ. For example, if one image had 64,64,64 and the other had 64,65,66 the diff would be 128,129,130. Mathematically it's 128+A-B.

Most of the differences in the above pic are because the two images aren't from the same frame. But if you look in areas where things haven't moved the pixels are mostly 128,128,128 or very near that.

[Drakul]

Thanks for your help...

I have updated the screenshots to reflect the same frames....

I understand what you mean, but the color fading is occuring just in this particular movie.

Both other movies I have encoded, (also progressive) have the same color, making it impossible to tell the difference between them.

What I do not understand is why this particular movie have the color washed away... Could it be a Interlaced and Progressive source ?

Thanks again...

[jagabo]

There is no significant color change between the two images. I resized the PAL image to make it the same size as the NTSC image, added the letters N and P to top left corner, and made them into an animated GIF:



I don't see any significant differences.

[FulciLives]

I often do PAL to NTSC because I live in the USA (where we use NTSC) but often buy PAL releases of movies not available in the USA.

However I love THE OMEGA MAN (one of my favorite movies) and there is an official USA NTSC DVD release. In fact there is even a USA Blu-Ray release.

I have the USA NTSC DVD and the quality is very nice. I intend however to buy the Blu-Ray at some point because hey I love this movie and I have a Blu-Ray player so I know I'll buy it eventually LOL

In short I guess I am suggesting that if you want your life "easy" you can just buy the NTSC version of this movie.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Drakul]

There is no significant color change between the two images. I resized the PAL image to make it the same size as the NTSC image, added the letters N and P to top left corner, and made them into an animated GIF:



I don't see any significant differences.

Dear Jagabo,

Thank you for your enlightment. I found out what was causing the color difference.... Since your last post, I tried to figure out was could be causing the faded color, and found out that when you open 2 instances of MPEG Video wizard, the latest opens a video stream with a lighter color... Dont know why... But...

Anyway thank you very much for your help...

[Drakul]

I often do PAL to NTSC because I live in the USA (where we use NTSC) but often buy PAL releases of movies not available in the USA.

However I love THE OMEGA MAN (one of my favorite movies) and there is an official USA NTSC DVD release. In fact there is even a USA Blu-Ray release.

I have the USA NTSC DVD and the quality is very nice. I intend however to buy the Blu-Ray at some point because hey I love this movie and I have a Blu-Ray player so I know I'll buy it eventually LOL

In short I guess I am suggesting that if you want your life "easy" you can just buy the NTSC version of this movie.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

Dear John,

Unfortunatelly, I cannot get a release of this movie where I live. Not in PAL nor in NTSC. So you can imagine, when a friend of mine gave it to me, how excited I was (since I just love this movie).

To give you an idea, I have never done any PAL->NTSC conversion, because is a real pain. But for this movie, I am willing to do a full conversion (Menus, video, subs...)...

I did not know that there is a B-R release of this movie. I may postpone my conversion project and try to see at my local import store if they carry a copy...

Anyway, thanks a lot to both of you for all enlightment...

[jagabo]

found out that when you open 2 instances of MPEG Video wizard, the latest opens a video stream with a lighter color...

This is because one was using your graphics card's video overlay feature and one wasn't (only one program at a time can use video overlay). Video overlay has different brightness, contrast, and color settings than the desktop.

[Drakul]

found out that when you open 2 instances of MPEG Video wizard, the latest opens a video stream with a lighter color...

This is because one was using your graphics card's video overlay feature and one wasn't (only one program at a time can use video overlay). Video overlay has different brightness, contrast, and color settings than the desktop.

Damn... I would have never guessed it)) Lost 2 days and a dozen of encodings, just to find out that the problem is my video card((... But was worth it, now I know that I cannot open 2 instances of MVW... Must find another way to compare PAL and NTSC frames to check if everything is correct...

Thanks again m8!!!!!!

[jagabo]

I use VirtualDub to compare files. You'll need a recent beta and an MPEG2 source plugin:

http://fcchandler.home.comcast.net/~fcchandler/Plugins/MPEG2/index.html

More VirtualDub plugins:

http://forums.virtualdub.org/index.php?act=ST&f=7&t=12664&s=45c27a76cb3b999a09a214a28142a4a9

[Drakul]

I use VirtualDub to compare files. You'll need a recent beta and an MPEG2 source plugin:

http://fcchandler.home.comcast.net/~fcchandler/Plugins/MPEG2/index.html

More VirtualDub plugins:

http://forums.virtualdub.org/index.php?act=ST&f=7&t=12664&s=45c27a76cb3b999a09a214a28142a4a9

OK... Using this method right now.... TY!!!

BTW... When I encode a progressive source, why does it come out as a interlaced source??? Is this normal?

[jagabo]

The MPEG2 decoder for VirtualDub performs the interlace pulldown if flagged. You can use VirtualDubMod which ignores the pulldown flags.

Note that the former is safer because an MPEG stream can be a mix of 23.976 fps progressive frames with pulldown flags and interlaced 29.97 fps frames. It can also have unusual pulldown patterns from other progressive frame rates mixed in. This can lead to A/V sync problems if you don't perform the pulldown. In short, the progressive frame rate can vary within the file but the frame rate after pulldown will always be 29.97 fps (for NTSC material).

[mpack]

I resized the PAL image to make it the same size as the NTSC image, added the letters N and P to top left corner, and made them into an animated GIF:

I don't see any significant differences.

Uh, GIF is 256-colours only isn't it (rare tricks aside). So won't that reduce the frames to a 256 colour palette? And, depending on the GIF encoder, might it not use the same "nearest color" palette for both frames? You could end up forcing both frames to be the same...

[Drakul]

OK...

What I did now, is open the source in dgindex, and save the project (trailer.d2v)

Using this avisynth script :
LoadPlugin("DGDecode.dll")
MPEG2Source("trailer.d2v")
LanczosResize(720,480)
ConvertToYUY2()

(still don´t know if this is the best script for progressive source)

and enconding with CCE...

I am still getting the output source as interlaced...

Have no problem with audio sync, and the output is OK. Just wondering why does it come out as interlaced... Have not messed around much with CCE settings as not to screw up things...

[jagabo]

Uh, GIF is 256-colours only isn't it (rare tricks aside). So won't that reduce the frames to a 256 colour palette? And, depending on the GIF encoder, might it not use the same "nearest color" palette for both frames? You could end up forcing both frames to be the same...

The GIF image was just so the OP could see the two frames were very similar. I compared the files in 24bit RGB before converting to GIF. I also used AviSynth to subtract one from the other while in YV12. The differences were minimal -- typical of any decent conversion. The OP has already realized the problem was the way he was viewing them.

[Drakul]

OK... Found out where the problem lies...

The interlacing artifact appears after dgpulldown...

Is this normal? if so... I will live with it...

Thanks again...

[jagabo]

OK...

What I did now, is open the source in dgindex, and save the project (trailer.d2v)

Using this avisynth script :
LoadPlugin("DGDecode.dll")
MPEG2Source("trailer.d2v")
LanczosResize(720,480)
ConvertToYUY2()

(still don´t know if this is the best script for progressive source)

and enconding with CCE...

I am still getting the output source as interlaced...

You're converting PAL to NTSC -- how are you converting the frame rate? VirtualDub will perform the pulldown when opening progressive MPEG with pulldown flags.

[Drakul]

OK...

What I did now, is open the source in dgindex, and save the project (trailer.d2v)

Using this avisynth script :
LoadPlugin("DGDecode.dll")
MPEG2Source("trailer.d2v")
LanczosResize(720,480)
ConvertToYUY2()

(still don´t know if this is the best script for progressive source)

and enconding with CCE...

I am still getting the output source as interlaced...

You're converting PAL to NTSC -- how are you converting the frame rate? VirtualDub will perform the pulldown when opening progressive MPEG with pulldown flags.

OK... I am converting the frame rate with DGPulldown from 25fps to 29.97fps...

After loading the avs into cee and encoding the video, i come up with a video source 720x480 25fps, perfect with no interlace artifacts.... After i pass the file thru dgpulldown, i start to notice those "sawtooth" artifacts.

I am using virtualdubmod to check the video after each operation to see if everything is in normal condition.

All is well until I pass the video thru dgpulldown... Is this normal? Is there a way to bypass this step (dgpulldown)

Thanks again for your assistance...

[Drakul]

OK... I think I understand now what you are saying.

It means that Vdub is responsible for the "interlace effect", but it does not mean that the interlacing is really there... Is that it???

Thanks again...

[FulciLives]

VirtualDub doesn't "play nice" with MPEG files that were run through DGPulldown.

Rest assured it will look fine on a TV and if the TV is progressive (like a HDTV) and if you have a progressive scan DVD player (in progressive scan mode) then you get no interlacing artifacts. Even if it is a standard definition TV then all will be well and display properly.

VirtualDub is just "screwy" in this regard.

Don't worry about it

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Drakul]

VirtualDub doesn't "play nice" with MPEG files that were run through DGPulldown.

Rest assured it will look fine on a TV and if the TV is progressive (like a HDTV) and if you have a progressive scan DVD player (in progressive scan mode) then you get no interlacing artifacts. Even if it is a standard definition TV then all will be well and display properly.

VirtualDub is just "screwy" in this regard.

Don't worry about it

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

OK... Thanks for the enlightment

That´s a pity, because VdubMPEG can play almost any mpeg source, and is a handy tool for checking the video source as the conversion goes down...

Anyway, I´m previewing in Maestro the final conversion to see if all is OK before making a coaster

Just one last question:

When you de-interlace an interlaced source, you come up with a progressive source?

I am asking this, because I want to teak CCE and just play around with bitrate, and keep all other settings the same.

Is this right or am I doing some sacrilege?

Thanks again...

BTW is the following script allright to work with interlaced sources ?
LoadPlugin("DGDecode.dll")
LoadPlugin("decomb521.dll")
LoadPlugin("convolution3d.dll")
MPEG2Source("movie.d2v")
FieldDeinterlace(full=true)
ConvertToYUY2()
Convolution3d (preset="movieHQ")
LanczosResize(720,480)

[jagabo]

The current VirtualDub with the MPEG source filter performs pulldown as it displays the frames. You will see interlace comb artifacts but the audio and video will be in sync.

VirtualDubMod doen't perform the pulldown. You will not see comb artifacts but the audio and video will be out of sync. A 25 fps video with pulldown flags will play at 29.97 fps. So the video will playback faster than the audio. If you know the frame rate before pulldown you can use the Frame Rate dialog to set the source frame rate. But be aware that MPEG files can have variable frame rates. So that won't always work.

I believe some very old versions of VirtualDubMPEG2 did the same as VirtualDubMod. But newer versions do the same as the latest VirtualDub.

Yes, when you deinterlace a video the result is progressive.

[manono]

Yes, when you deinterlace a video the result is progressive.

Yes, true, but I question Drakul's need to deinterlace at all. It's a movie, right, and almost by definition movies aren't interlaced. If he's getting the information from DGIndex or somesuch, as you well know that only shows how it's been encoded and nothing about what the source is like. Even if it shows the interlace "combing", almost always a better solution can be found other than running it through a deinterlacer, especially a lousy one like FieldDeinterlace(Full=True)

[jagabo]

I didn't feel like addressing whether or not he needs to, or should, deinterlace.

[manono]

Hehe, OK, but I don't mind addressing it as it's one of the biggest misconceptions, particularly among PAL people. I don't know for sure that Drakul decided it was interlaced from DGIndex, or from some other method. But unless it's been victimized by a bad standards conversion, movies on PAL DVD just aren't interlaced. Even if they really appear so (have the combing), they usually just have phase-shifted fields which are easy to realign without ruining the movie with a deinterlacer. If Drakul can't figure it out for himself, a 5 second sample of the source uploaded somewhere would be helpful.

[Drakul]

The current VirtualDub with the MPEG source filter performs pulldown as it displays the frames. You will see interlace comb artifacts but the audio and video will be in sync.

VirtualDubMod doen't perform the pulldown. You will not see comb artifacts but the audio and video will be out of sync. A 25 fps video with pulldown flags will play at 29.97 fps. So the video will playback faster than the audio. If you know the frame rate before pulldown you can use the Frame Rate dialog to set the source frame rate. But be aware that MPEG files can have variable frame rates. So that won't always work.

I believe some very old versions of VirtualDubMPEG2 did the same as VirtualDubMod. But newer versions do the same as the latest VirtualDub.

Yes, when you deinterlace a video the result is progressive.

OK... So maybe it is a good idea to preview the final mpeg source in a dvd software player like powerdvd...

So, when you use the avisynth script to feed CCE (Progressive and Interlaced de-interlaced), in both cases CCE will treat the source as being progressive and will use the same settings, meaning tha I wont have to play around with settings each time...

[Drakul]

Yes, when you deinterlace a video the result is progressive.

Yes, true, but I question Drakul's need to deinterlace at all. It's a movie, right, and almost by definition movies aren't interlaced. If he's getting the information from DGIndex or somesuch, as you well know that only shows how it's been encoded and nothing about what the source is like. Even if it shows the interlace "combing", almost always a better solution can be found other than running it through a deinterlacer, especially a lousy one like FieldDeinterlace(Full=True)

Well, you are right. All movies that I have processed, are progressive, but I am not just processing the main movie.

What I am doing is a full conversion, like menus (motion), trailers, bonus, and so on...

Most of the time, the extras are interlaced, so I need to de-interlace and then encode.

So, in fact, I do have both formats to deal with, but if I were doing movie only, you are right!

Thanks!!!

[Drakul]

Hehe, OK, but I don't mind addressing it as it's one of the biggest misconceptions, particularly among PAL people. I don't know for sure that Drakul decided it was interlaced from DGIndex, or from some other method. But unless it's been victimized by a bad standards conversion, movies on PAL DVD just aren't interlaced. Even if they really appear so (have the combing), they usually just have phase-shifted fields which are easy to realign without ruining the movie with a deinterlacer. If Drakul can't figure it out for himself, a 5 second sample of the source uploaded somewhere would be helpful.

OK... What I usually do to decide if the source is interlaced or not, is to run the source through VdubMpeg frame by frame to look for interlacing artifacts. I usually do that because DGIndex always gimes me interlaced source, even when the source is progressive.

I dont know if this method is correct since jagabo mentioned how Vdub manages mpeg video source, so if any of you two have a better suggestion I am open to try new techniques...

[jagabo]

In VirtualDubMPEG2 you can force it not to honor pulldown flags by going to Options -> Preferences -> MPEG and turning off [Honor "Repeat first field" flags]

[Drakul]

In VirtualDubMPEG2 you can force it not to honor pulldown flags by going to Options -> Preferences -> MPEG and turning off [Honor "Repeat first field" flags]

OK... I did what you suggested and the result was perfect.

I think that solves all my problems...

I do thank all of you guys who took the time and effort to help me in this "quest" of mine!!!