Procoder NTSC Conversion Problem

[spliffy]

I have been trying to use Canopus Procoder to convert a PAL recording (of a film) to NTSC.
The problem I am getting is that the NTSC conversion suffers for 'judder' when there is movement across the screen (i.e. motion is not smooth). Also, there is a noticeable 'lag' with movement. I am sure that I haven't got the program set up correctly. Could somebody please advise me as to the best settings/filters to use. (interlacing / Pulldown / Film Decode ??)
Thankyou in advance.

[Baldrick]

Please post conversion issues in our conversion forum. Moving you.

[guns1inger]

Resize to NTSC resolution (720 x 480) and encode at 25 fps. Use DGPulldown to add pulldown flags for 25fps -> 29.970 fps, then author as NTSC. You will get a much better result because

a) you aren't throwing away frames or blending frames and causing judder

b) you aren't altering the total running time, so your audio will match without having to be stretched or compressed

[manono]

You haven't really supplied many details of what you did, nor any evidence in the form of some MPEG-2 output that we can use to judge where you went wrong, something more precise than just, "The problem I am getting is that the NTSC conversion suffers for 'judder' when there is movement across the screen (i.e. motion is not smooth)." I suspect guns1inger is correct in his educated guess as to what went wrong, though. Anyway, I posted to a similar question over at Doom9, and included a couple of pics of what he was talking about:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1085324#post1085324

The guy that started the thread wanted to slow the video to 23.976fps in order to get rid of the PAL speedup, so I stuck AssumeFPS(23.976) in the script for his benefit and advised encoding for 23.976. However, I had made the pics and the encode some time earlier and had done it exactly the way guns1inger advised, encoded for 25fps (without that line in the script) and then ran DGPulldown afterwards for 25->29.97fps. Ignore the paragraph about slowing the audio, as by doing it the way guns1inger suggests, you can keep the original untouched audio.

[RickA]

I agree with guns1inger and manono. Using DGpulldown works wonders. I got the idea from a guide I think called 'The Holy Grail of converting PAL to NTSC'. Have converted quite a few 25fps progressive PAL DivX content to NTSC dvd's that way. Encoded as NTSC resolution 25fps progressive then running DGPulldown on the video to bring to 29.97fps. Also I think that FAVC may do something very similar. Good luck.

Cheers,
Rick

[FulciLives]

I bet the guy that started that Holy Grail thread was a genius ... wonder who that could have been ... 8)

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[tinker]

I bet the guy that started that Holy Grail thread was a genius ... wonder who that could have been ... 8)

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

I hear you. I use your guide for many conversions and it works swell. DGpulldown.

[FulciLives]

I bet the guy that started that Holy Grail thread was a genius ... wonder who that could have been ... 8)

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

I hear you. I use your guide for many conversions and it works swell. DGpulldown.

Well manono is no slouch and then there is that bloody palm guy :P

[spliffy]

Thankyou for your replies.
I am a little confused however, as to how to 'Resize to NTSC resolution (720 x 480) and encode at 25 fps'
When using Canopus Procoder, under 'Target' the only suitable option I have is NTSC (Mastering Quality) at 720 X 480 at 29.97 fps, not 25fps, as suggested.
Is it possible to encode to NTSC at 25 fps?

[guns1inger]

It is, but you have to make your own templates, not use the built-in ones. They are designed for very specific cases, and yours is not one of them.

[manono]

...under 'Target' the only suitable option I have is NTSC (Mastering Quality) at 720 X 480 at 29.97 fps, not 25fps, as suggested.

Which is why yours plays jerky.

Did you even bother to read at the link I provided, and look at the pics? Don't use any Wizard or included template.

Is it possible to encode to NTSC at 25 fps?

Hundreds, if not thousands, have done it successfully, using Procoder and many other MPEG-2 encoders.

[spliffy]

I will read further.
Many thanks !

[spliffy]

Here's a thing...
I have been trying to get an acceptable PAL to NTSC conversion using Procoder alone.
I tried using the Procoder Wizard (settings: 2 pass / optimum quality etc).
The results, I found, to be quite acceptable.
I made a note of all the settings that the Wizard set-up for me.
I then started again, not using the Wizard, using manual configuration, using all the settings that I noted previously (i.e non-smooth motion).
My original conversion problems then resurfaced.
It's academic now, but I am still curious as to what the problem could be.

[spliffy]

CORRECTION TO LAST POST:
Here's a thing...
I have been trying to get an acceptable PAL to NTSC conversion using Procoder alone.
I tried using the Procoder Wizard (settings: 2 pass / optimum quality etc).
The results, I found, to be quite acceptable.
I made a note of all the settings that the Wizard set-up for me.
I then started again, not using the Wizard, using manual configuration, using all the settings that I noted previously.
My original conversion problems then resurfaced. ((i.e non-smooth motion)
It's academic now, but I am still curious as to what the problem could be.

[manono]

If you used all the same settings, including encoding to 29.97fps, then why would you expect any different results?

[spliffy]

Hi Manono,
I wasn't expecting different results, but I believed I was getting them.
I have now found out what the problem was, but do not fully understand it.
Others may find this interesting.....
The file that I was having trouble standard-converting in Procoder was previously edited in mpeg-form, using Womble MPEG Video Wizard.
I have now found that if I go back and use the original recording (recorded from tv to a DVD-recorder in PAL), then Procoder works fine.
In future, I will standards-convert first, then use Womble to edit in mpeg form afterwards, prior to authoring.
This certainly works for me, but I am at a loss as to why I should have problems using the Womble-created mpeg stream.

[45tripp]

... but I am at a loss as to why I should have problems using ...

we are similarly at a loss,
as you've not provided specific info regarding your original recording, your woble edit,
your failed encode, or the settings you've attempted within procoder.

as long as it's fun...

tripp

[RickA]

I bet the guy that started that Holy Grail thread was a genius ... wonder who that could have been ... 8)

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

I hear you. I use your guide for many conversions and it works swell. DGpulldown.

Well manono is no slouch and then there is that bloody palm guy :P

Oh, my goodness! I had a major brain cramp and forget where I had stumbled across that amazing thread when I posted earlier. My apologies to those who spawned it and major kudos to all involved for bringing it to light and making the process work. I got some great conversions and learned alot about getting my hands dirty with more advanced conversion / encoding techniques. Well, more advanced then what I had been doing, hehe. Helped inspire me to write my first AVISynth scripts. Many thanks to your wisdom and for sharing it.

Cheers,
Rick