Vegas 7 best filter for grainy looking video

[crjackson]

I just got Vegas 7 about 2 days ago and I'm converting VHS to DVD's. Most of the videos are of good quality and need only simple editing. I do have a few where the captured video is grainy looking. Is there a filter in vegas that is particulary suited for despeckling/degraining or smoothing with out excessive blur? I have looked through the installed filters but was hoping a more experienced person could make a good recomendation.

TIA

[guns1inger]

Personally, I would use avisynth and save to a lossless format, then finish the editing in Vegas. If no editing is required, you might even skip Vegas all together. Vegas has some very good filters - it's colour correction tools are very good indeed, but noisy source cleanup isn't it's strong suit.

Avisynth has some brilliant noise reduction filters, from the simple but elegant VagueDenoiser, though to the heavy duty noise removal tools like Convolution3D and PeachSmoother. This post : https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=309181 begins with some discussion of DV processing, but by page two becomes one of the better discussions on noise removal in recent times. Well worth a read. Plenty of example scripts and sample images as well.

[mwkurt]

Check out Mike Crash's filters. Do a google for them. He has ported over one of the VDub
filters that is outstanding.
Mark

[crjackson]

Personally, I would use avisynth and save to a lossless format, then finish the editing in Vegas. If no editing is required, you might even skip Vegas all together. Vegas has some very good filters - it's colour correction tools are very good indeed, but noisy source cleanup isn't it's strong suit.

Avisynth has some brilliant noise reduction filters, from the simple but elegant VagueDenoiser, though to the heavy duty noise removal tools like Convolution3D and PeachSmoother. This post : https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=309181 begins with some discussion of DV processing, but by page two becomes one of the better discussions on noise removal in recent times. Well worth a read. Plenty of example scripts and sample images as well.

Thanks guns1inger, I've been reading the thread and trying to educate myself. Vegas is kind of tough to learn but I'm working on it. After testing the Vegas "Median" light noise reduction filter I've all but ruled out working with filters. My file only takes about 15 min. to re-render the 90 min AVI file but after adding only the one filter, it ran for 16 hours and was only at 19% so I just cancelled the render. I've tried with short clips of the movie, and the render time is so excessive, I don't think filters will be worth it for me.

Also, is there ANY way to render to Mpeg2 with the MC codec that won't cause DVD Architect to re-code the file. I can't seem to find any setting that will just allow it to load and be prepared as VOB files without recompression.

If I just let DVD Architect encode the edited AVI file, will the results be as good as those provided by MC codec, or procoder (which I normally use - I love that program, but I'm trying to learn how to use Vegas 7 properly).

[guns1inger]

Before giving up, look at Mike Crash's filters as posted above by mwkurt. They may well be what you need.

There are two parts to working with DVD Architect (and frankly, I don't. I have it because it was cheaper than buying the mpeg2 and AC3 for Vegas licenses separately, but I author with DVD Lab Pro). Use the templates supplied with Vegas when rendering for mpeg2. There are specific DVD Architect templates in the list. Change them as little as possible, mainly just the bitrate, and whether or not it is CBR or VBR encoding. Secondly, make sure the project setting in DVD Architect reflect the project setting you need and rendered with.

I use Vegas because I like it as an editor, especially for it's audio abilities, but also it's workflow and stability. However I rarely encode video to mpeg-2 with it, and I never author with DVD Architect. I generally output to lagarith if I need a multi-pass VBR mpeg2 encode, then encode with ProCoder, or I use the Debugmode Frameserver to serve from the timeline to ProCoder if I am rendering CBR.

[crjackson]

Here's what happened. I captured with Vegas, I trimed with Vegas, then I renderded to Mpeg2 using the MC MP2 codec, and used the DVD Architect template. The template(s) for DVD Architect don't have "include audio" turned on by default so i change this setting. By default, the rendering quality for the template is set to "Good". I change that setting to "Best" and apply. Then I tell it OK and start to render.

It's not the fastest in the world, but speed isn't too shabby by any means.

When it's done, I open the edited MPeg2 file in DVD Architect, make a simple menu (remember I'm just testing and lerning), and don't select ANY chapter/or scene markers. Then I tell DVDA to prepare the files for DVD to be burned later. It then proceeds to give me a message that it's going to have to recompress my audio stream. I select OK and it seems to recode the file.

I've never actually burned the resulting files or tested for output quality on a TV. I wonder how the DVDA coding quality rates compared to stand alone encoding or the MC encoding plugin.

Years ago, I used to cap with an older version of vegas video, encode with CCE, then bring the whole project into Ulead Video studio for menus, chapters, and mark-in / mark-out points.

Ulead never had to recode the MP2 file and the process was blazing fast compared to waiting for DVDA to recode everything that has already been encoded in the 1st place.

I would just like to find a way for DVDA to simply make the menus and import the MP2 file without recoding it. If I were sure that the encoding engine of DVDA produced equal quality to MC or ProCoder, I'd just import the AVI and skip the middle man encoding. What do you think?

[guns1inger]

It is recompressing your audio because it doesn't match the format specified in the DVD Architect project. Chances are the project default is AC3 5.1 and you have rendered AC3 2.0. Or you have rendered mpeg 1 layer 2 audio and the DVDA project expects AC3. Something simple like this. Like I said earlier, check your project settings an make sure they match your assets.

I always render to elementary streams (separate audio and video) and bring them together in authoring. Your problems seem, at this stage, to be either lack of knowledge - you don't yet understand how your software works, or lack of planning - you haven't really decided what your assets will be.

The render engine in DVDA is the same as Vegas. That is MC for video, and the same Sony encoders for audio. In the case you have described above, only the audio has been re-encoded, but because you have a program stream, the whole file must be re-written. Get your project settings right, and none of this will happen.

[crjackson]

It is recompressing your audio because it doesn't match the format specified in the DVD Architect project. Chances are the project default is AC3 5.1 and you have rendered AC3 2.0. Or you have rendered mpeg 1 layer 2 audio and the DVDA project expects AC3. Something simple like this. Like I said earlier, check your project settings an make sure they match your assets.

I always render to elementary streams (separate audio and video) and bring them together in authoring. Your problems seem, at this stage, to be either lack of knowledge - you don't yet understand how your software works, or lack of planning - you haven't really decided what your assets will be.

The render engine in DVDA is the same as Vegas. That is MC for video, and the same Sony encoders for audio. In the case you have described above, only the audio has been re-encoded, but because you have a program stream, the whole file must be re-written. Get your project settings right, and none of this will happen.

Cool. That makes perfect sense. You are correct on my lack of knowledge. I have owned this software all of about 5 days and haven't had much time to learn it yet. I use to PLAY with video a few years back, but I had very different software designed for amatures. I got good results, but never did anything complicated. I'm not really doing anything complicated now, but it's all new software and I'm still learning.

Thanks for the schooling...

[crjackson]

guns1inger,

I have a couple of questions perhaps you can answer. Since MC is the encoding engine for DVD Architect and should be the same as Vegas, is there a place to change the Quality setting in DVDA? In Vegas the default template is set to "Good", I alwas change that to "Best". I can't seem to find a similar setting for DVDA so I'm guessing there is none.

Exactly what does that setting do, and what do you think the default for DVDA is equivalant to in comparsion to MC?

Also do you know of a way for DVDA to build DVD files WITHOUT a menu, and is there a way to have DVDA to insert automatic chapter points (i.e. every 5 minutes).

Thanks for helping, the docs are confusing to me still. I have a lot to learn.

[guns1inger]

The Good and Best don't effect the encoding settings. They are to control the anti-aliasing for still images and text. I leave the set to best as they are adaptive and only kick in when required. The encoder settings are found by clicking on the Custom button in the Render As dialogue and changing the bitrate etc.

Personally, I think DVDA is a rubbish authoring tool. It is counter-intuitive in most of what is does. I don't trust it to work out the right settings when it automatically encodes, it's project settings are limiting in what you can create, and the tree view is a pain in the arse. My recommendation - ditch it.

If you must use it, then sit down and plan it out first. Work out what formats you are going to use for video and audio. Encode them and document it somewhere. Before you import an assets into DVDA, set the project settings to match your assets. If you don't want a menu, create your DVD with a simple menu, then drag the movie to the top of the tree. You can then delete the menus.

[crjackson]

Actually I probably won't use DVDA much ever, but I just wanted to know how to use it. I mostly use ProCoder Express. It does a nice job of inserting chapter points automatically at specified time intervals, the encoded output is of high quality and uses very little system resources while encoding. On rare instances I may need a menu, and since I already own DVDA I may as well learn how to use it.

I understand completly about matching up the settings with previously encoded material and DVDA. In fact it was the same way using Ulead a few years back, but i had forgotten about that, especially the audio format.

What is your choice for a quality (and easy to learn) basic authoring package? I seriously doubt I'll ever need more than a very basic menu, and even then it's a rare ocasion.

[guns1inger]

If basic is all you need, look at Tmpgenc DVD Author.

GUIForDVDAuthor is free, and will grow with your needs.

I use DVD Lab Pro, which is also an acquired taste, but is incredibly powerful. It has a cut down version as well, but it has the same basic interface.

[crjackson]

If basic is all you need, look at Tmpgenc DVD Author.

GUIForDVDAuthor is free, and will grow with your needs.

I use DVD Lab Pro, which is also an acquired taste, but is incredibly powerful. It has a cut down version as well, but it has the same basic interface.

Thanks, I'll prolly give DVD Lab Pro a shot when I get ready to shift gears again.

One quick editing qustion. I realize this may sound like a stupid question but I have to ask....

When i use vegas and capture my movie, make my edits (no filters - perhaps a few transitions added), then re-save to AVI by using the "RENDER AS" from the file menu... Big question coming... Does the edited AVI lose any quality as compared to the original capture?

[guns1inger]

The short answer is yes and no. If you are working with DV avi and choose a template that matches your footage (e.g. PAL 4:3) then any footage that has not been altered (i.e. does not have a transition of effect applied - including Event Pan an Crop etc) will be rendered with re-encoding. Any footage that has been altered will have to be re-encoded and will therefore be different to the original. The Sony DV codec is a very good codec, so you will probably not notice any difference after only one or two renders.

If you choose a template that is different to your footage then everything will be re-encoded.

[crjackson]

I see 2 templates that look about the same. One is "Default - Uncompressed" the other is NTSC DV - This one states it is compatiable with Sony Video Capture.

Which one would be least likely to cause any loss of quality when rendering back to AVI. I actually want to print it back to the original tape from which it was filmed as well. My brother did a poor job of video editing on my wedding video and mispelled some opening title pages, then he printed it back to the original D8 tape it was filmed with. I'd like to correct his errors but not at the expense of messing up the quality (which wasn't that great to begin with).

[guns1inger]

Uncompressed will have no degradation at all, however it will be huge. I use Lagarith, which uses a lossless compression scheme so the files are smaller.

In your case, choose avi, then NTSC DV. Render the whole thing to your HDD before rendering it back to the camera. Only the few scenes you change will be re-encoded.

[crjackson]

Uncompressed will have no degradation at all, however it will be huge. I use Lagarith, which uses a lossless compression scheme so the files are smaller.

In your case, choose avi, then NTSC DV. Render the whole thing to your HDD before rendering it back to the camera. Only the few scenes you change will be re-encoded.

I don't mind the file size, I have massive storage and hard drives on this system. I'm more concerned about quality, so I'll go with the Uncompressed.

Thanks for all your help - you seem to be the most helpful and active member on this board. I'll take the information you have given me and get working... Thanks again...

[guns1inger]

If you are planning to render back to your camera then you need to render to DV first. Otherwise Vegas will just have to render it again anyway. Uncompressed (or a lossless compression like Lagarith) is best used as an intermediate format to stop damage from repeated re-encoding of effects or titles or repairs.

[crjackson]

If you are planning to render back to your camera then you need to render to DV first. Otherwise Vegas will just have to render it again anyway. Uncompressed (or a lossless compression like Lagarith) is best used as an intermediate format to stop damage from repeated re-encoding of effects or titles or repairs.

Well it seems I was lucky. The original tape wasn't altered, just the DVD he produced, so I won't be writing it back to the tape. I'll just need to put in a few transitions and titles for the DVD.

[crjackson]

gunslinger,

With your help I managed to complete my wedding video. DVDA still wants to compress the audio track again. I created my m2p file using ProCoder express, the only audio formats PCE has to select from are "Stereo", "PCM", "Mono". I couldn't find any settings in DVDA that would allow me to match up with my m2p audio. It didn't take long for DVDA to compress the audio, but it would be nice if it didn't have to do that. I guess I'll just have to deal with it.

[guns1inger]

I use Vegas or Sound Forge to convert the audio to AC3. If you do something similar again, I would you do the same. Otherwise, it sounds like it all worked out for the best.

[crjackson]

I'll do it either today or tomorrow. Part of the reason for this project is to learn and find myself a workable routine. I'll have to have a look in Vegas and she how to do this. I would imagine I would render elementry program stream and select audio only?

[crjackson]

Man I'm doing something wrong with this editing. I found some really nasty frames I wanted to remove, I highlited them in the loop area and cut(also tried delete)... ZAP it was gone, then I grabbed the area to the right and dragged it back over to fill the empty area on the time line... ZAP it put back everything I cut and or deleted.

Next I split at either side of the bad frames and then deleted the section... ZAP it was gone, then I tried to move the section back on the time line to get rid of the dead space and... ZAP it put back everything again.

What am I doing wrong.......

[guns1inger]

The joys on non-destructive editing. When you cut a section out of clip, be it by deleting or splitting, you don't actually change the underlying clip. If you drag the end point of the clip back over the cut area, you restore the section you just removed.

The simplest way to deal with it is to turn on ripple editing, or auto-ripple (icon on the top tool bar - look up the online help) so that when you delete a section, the entire timeline adjusts itself to fill the gap. Mostly this is helpful, but there are also many times when it isn't. If you are working with auto-ripple off, move the clip by dragging on the clip itself, not the end points.

AC3 is a format on it's own when you render. Choose Save As "Dolby Digital AC-3" from the Render As dialogue.

[crjackson]

Okay, this is getting stupid. Now I can't even cause text to show over top of the movie. I can insert the text just fine, but I want it to float like a layer over the video. I get a text on a black background instead of media playing under it. I must be getting tired, this should be very, very, easy...

Nevermind, I figured this one out...

[guns1inger]

Make sure the time line that the text is on is at the top of the stack, and has a transparent background set.

Think of each timeline as a sheet of glass with images on it. You are looking down on the sheets from above. You can see what is on the top most sheet, and through any transparent sections to the sheet below, and so forth down the stack. Top most timeline is always the most visible.

[crjackson]

Make sure the time line that the text is on is at the top of the stack, and has a transparent background set.

Think of each timeline as a sheet of glass with images on it. You are looking down on the sheets from above. You can see what is on the top most sheet, and through any transparent sections to the sheet below, and so forth down the stack. Top most timeline is always the most visible.

You replied befor I got my edit in. I actually figured this one out... Man I knew there would be some learning to do, but geeze it's kicking my butt...

[crjackson]

The joys on non-destructive editing. When you cut a section out of clip, be it by deleting or splitting, you don't actually change the underlying clip. If you drag the end point of the clip back over the cut area, you restore the section you just removed.

The simplest way to deal with it is to turn on ripple editing, or auto-ripple (icon on the top tool bar - look up the online help) so that when you delete a section, the entire timeline adjusts itself to fill the gap. Mostly this is helpful, but there are also many times when it isn't. If you are working with auto-ripple off, move the clip by dragging on the clip itself, not the end points.

AC3 is a format on it's own when you render. Choose Save As "Dolby Digital AC-3" from the Render As dialogue.

Okay, I get the moving the clip thing. I don't think I need auto ripple, it was very simple to move. I just moved my cursor further over on the clip and slid it over there. This program is making me feel really stupid at this point. I haven't slept in about 28hrs, I hope it has something to do with that, I hate not being able to figure this stuff out on my own...

[guns1inger]

Get some sleep and hit it fresh. Learning anything as complicated as Vegas takes some time. You seem to be doing OK. Use the help function as well. It covers most things. Maybe not in the detail you might like, but enough to keep you heading in the right direction.

[crjackson]

guns1inger,

I've managed to make some good progress with vegas. Adding audio tracks proved to be problematic in that is pushes the video over to ther right all the time. Dragging the video back over to the left did no good as it replaced frames that I thought were long gone. My solution to this was to render the video only to DV, the open the new DV file to add the audio. Once this was done, I could move the video back over to the left as desired.

Is this the way it's done, or is there something I'm missing?

Next, with DVDA, when adding more than one video clip to a menu, is there any way to have each video clip return you to the main menu instead of progressing right into the next clip?

Thanks for all your help.