Sony DVD Media - 50-Pack - $12.98 OTD - Staples - 09/10/06

[negritude]

Just a heads up, but Sony DVD 50-packs will be on sale at Staples for $12.98 OTD starting 09/10/06. If Staples doesn't have TYG03s, PM at Best Buy or CompUSA. My local CompUSA in the Bay Area has almost nothing but TYG03s.

[oldandinthe way]

Take a look at this article pointed to from the guides area.

http://www.vso-software.fr/articles/burning-stats2/best-burners-dvd-writers-and-media-...blank-disc.php

Looks like TYG03s might not be the best for every drive.

For many CMC is.

[budz]

Take a look at this article pointed to from the guides area.

http://www.vso-software.fr/articles/burning-stats2/best-burners-dvd-writers-and-media-...blank-disc.php

Looks like TYG03s might not be the best for every drive.

For many CMC is.

And wait a few months/years down the line and you'll see those CMC discs dye deteriorate where the disc will become unreadable.

[Wile_E]

And wait a few months/years down the line and you'll see those CMC discs dye deteriorate where the disc will become unreadable.

I have first hand experience with deteriorating CMC discs. Sometime ago I bought some Memorex CD-R's (CMC), burned them, and put in my closet in CD wallet. They stayed there for about one year. I took them out to verify, and some of the discs went bad and couldn't be read. Good thing I had the master pressed CD's, so I could make another backup again. Otherwise all would have been lost.

[ROF]

Take a look at this article pointed to from the guides area.

http://www.vso-software.fr/articles/burning-stats2/best-burners-dvd-writers-and-media-...blank-disc.php

Looks like TYG03s might not be the best for every drive.

For many CMC is.

I agree. I gave up on tys almost a year ago(especially those made at some dump in Japan). For me the DVDs I use are the name brands that are on sale. When they fail to burn properly I return them with no questions asked. Wasted too much money on Ty discs that die after so many months or fail to burn properly to begin with.

[lordsmurf]

Take a look at this article pointed to from the guides area.
http://www.vso-software.fr/articles/burning-stats2/best-burners-dvd-writers-and-media-...blank-disc.php

This study has some interesting information, but I don't necessarily think conclusions can be drawn from it. This is the kind of data you'd want to use before a hypothesis, which is of course before the actual experiment and study data, which is then followed by more accurate results and conclusions. There are too many unknowns. In fact, pretty much EVERYTHING is an unknown, aside from drives and media in use.

Think of this:
- Is the system PIO and not DMA?
- Was the disc dirty?
- Did somebody bump the desk while burning?

Those are just three out of dozens and dozens of questions. Any one of those uncontrolled unknown variable could wildly skew the data.

Definitely read the info. It's valuable. But don't draw conclusions from it. Use it as a starting place for your own research.

Did anybody else notice that it says TTG02 is Taiyo Yuden? That's not correct. That is a TDK code.

[dragonkeeper]

If you like Sony so much I got a a couple of hundred that I'm basicly giving away, I bought them from Wally Word. Something weird is going on with the disk, I pulled a couple out tonight I was going to rip them to Divx to put on my laptop to watch while on a trip. But my drive wouldn't read them(the same drive that burned them) out of the 10 disk I tried only 2 of them were read successfully on the first attempt, the other 8 had some wierd film all over them I was able to wipe what ever it was off but of the 8 only 6 were salvageable.
The odd thing is that the cases I put the disk in, had not been opened since I burned them, and what ever the film was, appeared on the disk only no residue was found in the cases that the disk were stored in. And thus far I'm only noticing this behavior on the Sony disk and most of these were burned within the past month.
This just a warning for anyone willing to listen; stay away from cheap Sony media. As for me I'm staying away from Sony disk period.

[NiteLite]

Did anybody else notice that it says TTG02 is Taiyo Yuden? That's not correct. That is a TDK code.

Yep, when I first saw the code I thought TDK but later when reading the editorial it stated TY.
From all the reading and observations from all over the net I really find the article -especially- the media ratings very suspicious.
For one: stating TY 16X (TYG03) outperforms TY 8X (TYG02) really amazes me.
Are they testing at the rated speed?
If accurate, wow.
NL

[OneSickPup]

Did anybody else notice that it says TTG02 is Taiyo Yuden? That's not correct. That is a TDK code.

Yep, when I first saw the code I thought TDK but later when reading the editorial it stated TY.
From all the reading and observations from all over the net I really find the article -especially- the media ratings very suspicious.
For one: stating TY 16X (TYG03) outperforms TY 8X (TYG02) really amazes me.
Are they testing at the rated speed?
If accurate, wow.
NL

I agree - it's hard to consider this data credible based on obvious errors where TDK media types are being reported as TY. What really did it for me was the statement CMC, RITEK and PRINCO are leading the chart. The most reliable media are the RITEK-R03-02 and ......
That pretty much shot the whole study for me.

[oldandinthe way]

The study deals in very large numbers - hence many of the questions about specific cases are largely irrelevant.

The study also shows the widespread use of LG drives, which are notably more tolerant of media, unlike some Japanese drives which only perform well with Japanese media.

Contrary to the folklore, it is drives that make coasters not media makers. This collection of data shows that and so does the anecdotal evidence in the media reports.

There probably is a bias in the report. Japanese media might look worse because the users of crappy Japanese drives also are more likely to use Japanese media, but this is probably more than overcome by general consumers with their factory installed korean drives using name brand media on sale - HP,TDK, Memorex, Maxell, Imation etc all using these media makers who lead the chart.

[lordsmurf]

The study deals in very large numbers - hence many of the questions about specific cases are largely irrelevant..

Large numbers just makes the situation worse. It's a statistical folly to overcome error by increasing volume.

[budz]

Under section 3 Popular drive analysis it says, "Plextor and its popular PX-716 is also in a good position. Samsung, Pioneer and Sony are not impressing." But yet it says on the bottom of that section, "Please consider also these drives:

Plextor PX-740 : 97,5%
Toshiba R5112 : 96,8%
BenQ 1640 : 97,4%"

Look at the chart where the SONY 810A drive is rated.....
The SONY 810A & PLEXTOR 740 are identical as far as hardware wise because they're REBADGED BENQ 1640 drives!!!!!!
That website is bogus as far as I'm concerned.

[oldandinthe way]

Look at the chart where the SONY 810A drive is rated.....
The SONY 810A & PLEXTOR 740 are identical as far as hardware wise because they're REBADGED BENQ 1640 drives!!!!!!
That website is bogus as far as I'm concerned.

Identical hardware is not identical firmware. Can generate different results.

[oldandinthe way]

The study deals in very large numbers - hence many of the questions about specific cases are largely irrelevant..

Large numbers just makes the situation worse. It's a statistical folly to overcome error by increasing volume.

Where only a small percentage of the data is faulty, large samples can obsure the effects of that data. Out of date firmware or defective hardware will have a much greater effect on a small sample. This is part of why in cases where the sample cannot be adequately controlled, larger samples are required.

[dznutz]

to the tread starter - sony's are good. try to get the 8x versions with the octagon spacer (best quality yudens). even my 16x mit versions are great so it should be a good deal nonetheless.

about cmc - cmc is widespread. the data collected concerned passed burns. since the top 3 drives are of great quality the crap media should come out ok or marginally passing.

regarding their data on yudens i have to wonder whether or not they were able to diffrentiate fakes from real yudens

i don't like cmc. trying to get rid of them (bought a bunch of them back when i was ignorant about mid). my cmc mid cd's deteriorated within 2 years. my yuden cds are over 10 years old and still is perfect. so far the cmc dvd's are still playable but i'm backing them up with the sony's i got from bb a while back

[lordsmurf]

The study deals in very large numbers - hence many of the questions about specific cases are largely irrelevant..

Large numbers just makes the situation worse. It's a statistical folly to overcome error by increasing volume.

Where only a small percentage of the data is faulty, large samples can obsure the effects of that data. Out of date firmware or defective hardware will have a much greater effect on a small sample. This is part of why in cases where the sample cannot be adequately controlled, larger samples are required.

As dznutz just stated, fake media can totally throw off the entire study. There is faked TY, MCC and several others out there. Code alone will not work. It's just not accurate in any sense of the word, and the size alone cannot overcome these obstacles.

At most, it can sserve as a a starting point for a better research study, or maybe even a general view into what codes are being used most often. It does not necessarily equate into quality.

You also have to remember that "successfully" burned discs can still be crap and full of errors. A burner program can only report media that fails to burn and gets vomited out of the burner. That can happen for any number of reasons, a few of which I mentioned earlier.

[budz]

Look at the chart where the SONY 810A drive is rated.....
The SONY 810A & PLEXTOR 740 are identical as far as hardware wise because they're REBADGED BENQ 1640 drives!!!!!!
That website is bogus as far as I'm concerned.

Identical hardware is not identical firmware. Can generate different results.

Which is why that website is pointless. Do a comparison on each rebadged drive with all different firmware then it would be interesting to see the results. Or have all those drives crossflashed to the BENQ 1640 firmware then do a comparison. Most know that crossflashing the drive to the BENQ 1640 firmware is the better because you'll have the ability to use qsuite 2.1.

I'm sure if you did a poll asking which media would you pick between CMC & TAIYO YUDEN. TY would win hands down. Have you ever thought of posting that website link at CdFreaks.com? I'm sure you'd get lots of response from those members.

[lordsmurf]

For the record, I'm not going to bash that site, but I will say the data has to be interpreted properly. The information gathered does have several beneficial uses, for those that know how to read it.

[oldandinthe way]

I'm sure if you did a poll of consumers at large as to whether they would purchase CMC 50 packs with a name they recognize at $12.95 or Taiyo Yuden at $12.95, 13.95, 13.95, 14.95 or $15.95 you would find that HP, Imation, Memorex, or TDK would win hands down. If you did a poll of NEC drive owners I have little doubt that TY would win.

What this study shows relative to media is that many people are getting more than acceptable results with commonly available, brand name media. It also suggests that the most commonly used drives are quite reliable with these media. This interpretation is totally consistant with the media section of this site - the most commonly used drives do not report many disks as being of poor quality. Certain Japanese drives are responsible for the bulk of the poor quality media reports.

[lordsmurf]

What this study shows relative to media is that many people are getting more than acceptable results with commonly available, brand name media.

No, it does not!
A "successful burn" (according to the burning software) can still be a coaster!

How many people have gotten discs that appeared to burn fine, the software reported no problems, but the disc froze in the player? That is the #1 most common way you find coasters.

[OneSickPup]

Certain Japanese drives are responsible for the bulk of the poor quality media reports.

<Rant>
Huh. How on earth are you drawing that conclusion. You have made several posts that have made reference to poor quality Japanese drives and superior Korean (ie: LG) drives. Your bias is well noted by now. For the record I like LG opticals - I own three. But to say they are superior to the many other makes I own would not be true. For the record - all three LG drives were manufactured in China - just like the majority of optical drives currently. I might be more acceptable to your comments if you referred to a particular make instead of the blanket Japanese reference. <End Rant>

[oldandinthe way]

Certain Japanese drives are responsible for the bulk of the poor quality media reports.

<Rant>
Huh. How on earth are you drawing that conclusion. You have made several posts that have made reference to poor quality Japanese drives and superior Korean (ie: LG) drives. Your bias is well noted by now. For the record I like LG opticals - I own three. But to say they are superior to the many other makes I own would not be true. For the record - all three LG drives were manufactured in China - just like the majority of optical drives currently. I might be more acceptable to your comments if you referred to a particular make instead of the blanket Japanese reference. <End Rant>

I draw that conclusion from reading the media reports on this site. If the overall report is poor or mixed, the negatives are overwhelmingly from Japanese badged drives.

I do have a prejudice but it is not based on a country of origin.

The Internet is a useful source of information on many technical issues. It is particularly useful on software related issues, where product interactions and poor testing leave traps for the unwary.

It is often less useful on hardware related issues, where the quality of the responses often spawns FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt). And vendor loyalties are oftem irrational.

Optical media have historically been seen as slow and unreliable, (and expensive). The refinement of the CD and its wide acceptance have made optical media mainstream. The DVD has built on the success of CD. This has all occurred while the price of computers systems has dropped.

Computer manufacturers cannot afford to provide large amounts of support for DVD related problems - hardware or media, so they have had to focus on minimizing this support need. This means that they have to select hardware with reliability and high media compatibility for use in their systems. When you look at the drives supplied by HP, Gateway (incl. e-machines), Dell and Lenovo(IBM), you see a bias to the Korean drives (Hitachi/LG, Toshiba/Samsung). This is not to say there haven't been Taiwanese drives used as well.

The consumer will use whatever media he can buy conveniently and the techs at these manufacturers are busy enough without media compatibility issues. So they avoid them with their drive selections.

A lot of familiar names appear on DVD media, most of these makers do not actually manufacture DVDs. To assume that HP, Memorex, Maxell, Imation, TDK and the many others who relabel so called second and third tier media lack the knowledge and commitment to quality to appropriately select a vendor is absurd.

Owners of drives noted for media incompatibilty reports use time consuming techniques to confirm the incompatibility, including PI scans. The result is always the same, if the media is troublesome, the PI scans of media burned on that drive are lousy. If the PI scans look good someone will suggest scanning on a different manufacturers drive where they will look worse.

A formal classification scheme for media quality is propagated with media moving between tiers as their quality changes.

DVD recordables are a commodity product with the bulk of system owners blissfully ignorant of this scheme. They know they get some bad burns and take the media which has it back to the store where they get the same or other media. A friend provided me with a large quantity of media returns from a large office chain. Other than the few bad burns attempted by the customer, all of the media burned properly at rated speed in my LG drive. And they are still readable a year later.

Some clues to reading media reports:

If the user is burning 8 or 16x media at 2.4 or 4x, you probably want to ignore his experience unless your drive is identical to his.

If the user is using firmware in his drive which was not supplied by the drive manufacturer or his computer manufacturer, you probably want to ignore his experience unless your drive is identical to his.

If a user is burning at 12x, you probably want to ignore his experience unless your drive is identical to his.

If the reports are mixed and there is clearly a split between various drive manufacturers, you probably want to ignore his experience unless your drive is identical to his.

If the drive used is over 2 years old, you probably want to ignore his experience unless your drive is identical to his.

If your own experience differs from reports you read, follow your own experience, on top of of the drive related issues, there is the fact that quality control of DVD media is control of the process and some sampling and bad media can and do slip through. (Some of this will be explained away by counterfeit media).

[OneSickPup]

@oldandinthe way

Well, all I can say is you are welcome to your opinion. My review of the same sources yields a much different view. As a hobby I collect and test optical drives. This does not necessarily mean much since my hands-on experience is limited to only several dozen drives. A very small sampling in the bigger picture. I'm also a scan freak so my analysis criteria may be somewhat different from the mainstream user. My primary views differ in the following areas:

1.)Two years ago drive/burner brand/make was a much bigger issue than it is currently. Most major brands today for the most part perform well for the average consumer.
2.)Manufacturers like Dell, Gateway, HP, etc base their purchases almost exclusively on price with availability in quantities a secondary consideration.
3.)Companies like Memorex, Fuji or HP make their media source decisions on price. The average consumer has no clue what is good or bad media. Until consumers in mass rise up and complain, they will continue to distribute whatever they deem acceptable at the cheapest price.
4.)Having been involved in several large mass distributions of dvd's over the last few years I have some strong opinions on what media works and what is marginal. Anybody questioning MCC or TY superiority over the CMC's, Ritek's and Princo's of the world has a seriously skewed outlook on media. IMO

Just my two cents for what little it is worth.

[oldandinthe way]

Onesickpup

In my opinion you underrate the intelligence of major companies. Given the slim margins realized by computer companies, they recognize the fact that a trouble call based on inferior components may cost the profits on several systems, Having worked in the industry for over 30 years I can tell you this shift in emphasis occured at least 15 years ago.

The strong resistance AMD experienced to incorporating their processors in spite of lower pricing than Intel reflected management resistance to perceived support risk. It has taken a great deal of good press for AMD to begin to make market share inroads.

I don't know how large a distribution you have deal but my feeling is that if it was LARGE - burned media was probably inappropriate regardless of vendor. And the equipment used to generate large numbers of burned media is likely to differ significantly from current consumer products.

Most people buy a system in a big box store, it comes with the brand the manufacturer selected, most often LG or Samsung, they buy the media on that weeks sale, they use it and it works. When they want to view what they burned, it works. Each of the components is good enough.

And good enough is what is required for success in the world today.

[SingSing]

Good enough is what is required for success in the world today.

in the mass market.

Good enough to make a working DVD with most media, is what a DVD burner manufacter is required, to sell a lot of that burner.

Good enough to make a working DVD with most DVD burner, is what a DVD media manufacter is required to sell a lot of that disc.

If you have a good enough DVD burner and a bunch of good enough media, you will be hard pressed to make any coaster.