Best DVD recorder for copying VHS tapes?

[Brent G.]

A friend of mine is going to copy his 90min VHS tapes to DVD. These tapes are not copy protected and he needs good quality DVD images. Can someone make a recommendation on which recorders are the best for this type of job? He has a lot of tapes to convert. TIA

Brent

[davideck]

Toshiba - their Picture Quality is excellent and their TBC performance for analog inputs is exceptional.

https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?p=1482771#1482771

Will he be using a VCR with an internal TBC?

[Marvingj]

I would say Toshiba & JVC but Pioneer is also very good. Its a toss up!

[lordsmurf]

The JVC filters out both chroma noise and grain from VHS tapes. Very few DVD recorders are worthwhile when transferring from tapes.

The JVC DR-M100S is the one to get.

If you get the Toshiba, it cannot be the DR4 or DR5, is needs to be one of the higher end ones. Toshiba has a lot of copy protection quirks, seeing it were none exists.

LiteOn also uses an LSI chipset and does filtering like the JVC, but the encode quality is not quite as good.

Pioneer encodes nicely, but it is sort of lacking in the filter department, I'm not all that fond of it for VHS work.

LG, Samsung, GoVideo and several other models that use the LSI chipset (again, like the JVC) may work too. but I'd still suggest you go after the JVC.

[davideck]

My experience with capturing VHS on the JVC DR-M100S was very disappointing;

Its built in Frame Synchronizer is particularly sensitive to horizontal jitter. Unless an external TBC is used, these timing instabilities are preserved onto the DVD and are sometimes made worse. The Lite-On DVD Recorder that I tested also did this. In contrast, the Toshiba DVD Recorder noticeably reduces these timing instabilities better than most external TBCs.

The Input Filtering / Noise Reduction on the JVC softens the image and cannot be turned off. This is fine for putting 3 hours on a single layer DVD, but not for preserving the original source detail of higher quality recordings.

Tapes that captured fine on other DVD Recorders were falsely identifed as being copy protected by the JVC. Here again, an external TBC would be required. This seems to be problematic on all DVD Recorders, but I have not yet had any problems with the Toshiba.

Of the DVD Recorders that I tested, the JVC was my least favorite for VHS capture.

[lordsmurf]

JVC does not soften the image.
JVC does not lighten the image.
JVC does not harm the color quality.

JVC does not do any worse or any better than any other DVD recorder, in terms of it's ability to deal with sources that generally need timebase correction from an external filter. Individual experiences will vary, but overall, all machines act about the same in this area. Very few exceptions.

I cannot even keep count of the people who buy these machines off my advice and thank me later on. I swear I need to buy some JVC stock sometime.

Folks should at very least try a JVC when looking for a DVD recorder.

[davideck]

JVC does not soften the image.
JVC does not lighten the image.
JVC does not harm the color quality.

Picture quality issues are very subjective.

JVC does not do any worse or any better than any other DVD recorder, in terms of it's ability to deal with sources that generally need timebase correction from an external filter. Individual experiences will vary, but overall, all machines act about the same in this area.

That is simply not true. Have another look at the comparison tests in the thread that I referenced above.

If you're using an external TBC or a VCR with TBC/DNR, then the jitter sensitivity of the JVC DVD Recorder will not be apparent. It becomes apparent when capturing directly from a VCR without a TBC on tapes with noticeable horizontal jitter.

[Bridge]

Here's something I'm wondering. If you said that the Lite on filters like the JVC but has worse encoding qualities I'm wondering how much worse? If the JVC is a 10 out of 10 in encoding quality then where does the Lite on fall? 8 out of 10? 6 out of 10?

I have a Lite on and when I have very bad, snowy, grain filled picture quality I only use the Lite on because it takes all of that stuff out and makes the picture look nice and smooth. When I use the Pioneer and Panasonic it keeps every bit of the bad video quality. Snow, funky lines, bad video look and all. If I like what the Lite on looks like with really bad looking video quality stuff then how much better would things look with a JVC machine?

If you have a Lite on and like what it does with bad, snowing, grain filled, low quality video, then is the JVC that much better looking that you should go out and get a JVC machine or is it such a little difference that you can't really tell a big video quality difference between a JVC and a Lite on when it comes to dubbing over bad looking video from things such as VCR video or Tivo video?

[Brent G.]

Wow, great feedback guys and in less than a day. I'm impressed.

I'll see if he can get the JVC or Toshiba in town. If he wants to shell out some $ for a TBC, are there any descent ones under $100?

TIA
Brent

[lordsmurf]

Here's something I'm wondering. If you said that the Lite on filters like the JVC but has worse encoding qualities I'm wondering how much worse? If the JVC is a 10 out of 10 in encoding quality then where does the Lite on fall? 8 out of 10? 6 out of 10?

I have a Lite on and when I have very bad, snowy, grain filled picture quality I only use the Lite on because it takes all of that stuff out and makes the picture look nice and smooth. When I use the Pioneer and Panasonic it keeps every bit of the bad video quality. Snow, funky lines, bad video look and all. If I like what the Lite on looks like with really bad looking video quality stuff then how much better would things look with a JVC machine?

If you have a Lite on and like what it does with bad, snowing, grain filled, low quality video, then is the JVC that much better looking that you should go out and get a JVC machine or is it such a little difference that you can't really tell a big video quality difference between a JVC and a Lite on when it comes to dubbing over bad looking video from things such as VCR video or Tivo video?

JVC uses the DVD Forum specs, which is VBR encoding.
LiteOn uses the RW Alliance specs, which is CVBR encoding, less bitrate at the same resolutions. So it looks a little more "crunchy" for that reason alone.

LiteOn has a better tuner than JVC, in terms of NOT AUDIO, but rather in terms of the ability to tweak the input by +/- of the frequency, to get a better image. My LiteON picks up some channels better than the JVC because I tweaked the tuner settings.

What you see on the LiteOn, on removing noise, is the LSI filters on the chipset at work. Panasonic and Pioneer have almost zero filtering, in this manner. That is why they are not optimal suggestions for dealing with degraded sources, of which VHS most certainly is one.

Now the JVC has not only the LSI filters, but it's own JVC filters too. So it can be a little better yet, yes. Is it enough to justify a new DVD recorder? That's your call. I bought a JVC to replace one of my LiteOns, because I started to do more recording on it, and I wanted the extra quality bump. The LiteOn was moved to another room, to replace both a VCR and a dead DVD player with 1 unit.

Whether or not you can find the JVCs or higher end Toshibas in stores is going to be a slight challenge. JVC is considered "prosumer" equipment, for the most part, and therefore it's not sold in most junk stores like Walmart or Best Buy. You need to hunt down some of the larger or better stores for it. Both JVC and Toshiba are sold online, fairly easy to find there.

[pepegot1]

JVC is great!! It filters out lots of noise. I have some old tapes that were not in good shape, now I have DVD's that are acceptable. A good product for VHS to DVD.

[Brent G.]

The JVC DR-M100S is impossible to find in a store and it looks like JVC has discontinued it.

My friend needs a return policy just in case it doesn't work out for him so he'd rather not order online (he's in Canada so ordering stuff from the States is a bit of a hassle in shipping charges and customs). He can get JVC DR-M70U from Future Shop locally. How does this compare to the DR-MS100?

TIA
Brent

[trhouse]

Here is a comment about the M70U from another Canadian.

"LG Lra-536
JVC DRM 100 and DRM70
Toshiba DR-4
Panasonic ES20
and
the budget priced LITEON 5005x and 5115GHC"

Ive tried most of these and my comments are as followed. I took the Lite-On 5005 back. why? There were massive jitter issues in the image while recording. Apparantly it is an overheating issue, but when the VCR was plugged into the recorder the jitter was incredible. And personally im not willing to start chopping up the case to fix that.

The JVC DRm100 is nothing like these guys hype it up to be. Maybe its because im in Canada and they may have a different model than me, but compared to the DRM70, I took the DRm100 back the very next day. Its slow to react to remote commands, its a tick louder than the 70, and most importantly it didnt have anywhere close to the picture recording quality.

The Panasonic ES20 had macrovision issues when I tried to record my tv recorded tapes to DVD. I dont know why. The JVC didnt have it.

Ive never tried the LG or the Toshiba.

The JVC DRM70 advertises a TBC filter and it shows, I love this machine. The ONLY flaw I find in it is a lack of 3 hour mode, but recording in 4 hour mode is hardly a slouch. The quality in 4 hour is excellent. I wish they made a DRM70.5 with the 3 hour mode, id pick it up in a heartbeat.

Whatever the hell you do, but all your stuff from either Futureshop or Best Buy. That way you can take it back to your hearts content.

and

MeekloBraca wrote:
my JVC DRM70S which apparantly is only available in Canada.

The DR-M70 is primarily a PAL unit only, sold in UK and Europe. A "DR-M70U" is being sold in Canada.

If anything, the "70" line is apparently a stripped-down version of the DR-M100S (the 70 supposedly lacks FR mode, for example). Everything else inside the unit (filters, for example) is identical. There is really no variation in the JVC equipment, aside from the LSI generation and the PSUs. The 10, the 1000, the combos ... they all work the same, on the DVD recording side.

I'm sure you observed things that drew you to the conclusion you have, between your 70 and 100, but it's factually false. You're going to need to look elsewhere for your reasonings, as the science and technology does not agree with your opinions.

[Brent G.]

Great, thanks. I'll have him pick up a JVC M70U and try it out. It's on sale this week so he'll save a few bucks too. :P

[MeekloBraca]

I dont know if you have purchased yours or not yet. But depending on where you live in Canada, A and B Sound have amasing deals on the JVC DRM70 and JVC DRM100. I still stand by what i said about the 100 compared to the 70. Its not even close, with the exception of not having a FR mode the 70 is a great machine.

The 100 is slow, its too bright, too loud and the picture quality is not of the 70. Several hours of recording the same tape on the same media back and forth was spent to come to this conclusion.

The Panasonic ES25 is an excellent machine with clean video sources and in need of FR mode. Im very pleased with it. However the 4 hour mode on it sucks and like a previous poster said, it doesnt handle poorish tapes well.

[gshelley61]

For all you folks looking for a JVC DR-M100 and not having any luck finding any... here's a low cost alternative:

Buy an open box (or used) DR-MV5 combo unit instead. Sure it will take more room than a DR-M100 and the VHS side of the unit is not that great, but the DVD recorder section is essentially identical to the DR-M100. Plus, the DR-MV5 can usually be purchased for quite a bit less than a DR-M100 anyway. There are lots of them available, too. You can use the money saved to get a nice S-VHS VCR for your VHS conversions...

[jamiemark]

The JVC DR-M100S is impossible to find in a store and it looks like JVC has discontinued it.

My friend needs a return policy just in case it doesn't work out for him so he'd rather not order online (he's in Canada so ordering stuff from the States is a bit of a hassle in shipping charges and customs). He can get JVC DR-M70U from Future Shop locally. How does this compare to the DR-MS100?

TIA
Brent

I bought a JVC DR-M70U from Future Shop and am pleased with the picture quality. I too, wish there was a FR record mode, or at least a 3 hr. mode, but what can you do.

[Shaky Jake]

Ditto on the JVC. It's the best thing out there

[vhelp]

Brent G.,

Do you know source type for these videos ??

And, do you know how he/she obtained them ??
(i.e., recorded to tapefrom Antenna or Cable, etc)

Example A - Interlace:
** Sports; Concerts; Wrestling; Talk; News;

Example B - Film/Telecine:
** Movies;

If (B) then you have a good chance of IVTC, which would benefit
if you re-encode. The reason I note this option is because you
could quite possibly squeeze better, the 90 minutes onto one dvd
disk. Otherwise, (B) would offer nothing better, except I might
suggest to split the dvd recorder -> +/- R disc (using optimum
bitrate setup, per recorder unit) for maximum quality.

The other part of the equation to all this VHS transfering nonsense,
is with using external applications to keep the video as steady as
possible during the transfer (or copy) to destination media.

So far, the only devices that I have seen the keep the VHS's video
stable are the Canopuse ADVC-100 and a JVC GR-DVL820U
(that's mine) do this. The video signal from this DV Cam is so stable
(no wobbles or jidder) during video play/transfer. In fact, I'm
thinking of trying a test with my Polaroid model, to see how this
test fairs out. I think it will do well, but I need to test this,
just to be sure

-vhelp 4077

[jamiemark]

I bought a JVC DR-M70U from Future Shop and am pleased with the picture quality. I too, wish there was a FR record mode, or at least a 3 hr. mode, but what can you do.

Update: I just looked at the manual for the DR-M100S online and it seems the FR record function is only available for timer recordings!?! . Lordsmurf, is this true? Are there any JVC models out there where you can use FR record on non-timer recordings as well?? If not, that seems like a helluva waste....

[trhouse]

That is hard to believe. Its predecessor, the M10S can do FR any time.

[victoriabears]

the jvc m100 I have can do FR.

[MeekloBraca]

Yeah the 100 can do FR mode from any time. I know the Bay and A and B Sound have 100's left. You should try it and compare it, youll see what im talking about. Id also consider getting the DR5 just to make sure you cover all your bases. Take advantage of these guys return policies, I sure have.

[lordsmurf]

Update: I just looked at the manual for the DR-M100S online and it seems the FR record function is only available for timer recordings!?! . Lordsmurf, is this true?

No, not true. I use FR all the time. Most of my recording is FR180 mode, timer or not.

As with most electronics company manuals, it's Engrish. Don't read too literally.

[jamiemark]

Update: I just looked at the manual for the DR-M100S online and it seems the FR record function is only available for timer recordings!?! . Lordsmurf, is this true?

No, not true. I use FR all the time. Most of my recording is FR180 mode, timer or not.

As with most electronics company manuals, it's Engrish. Don't read too literally.

After close examination, it seems you are indeed correct. It's kind of stupid in the manual, it says you can select FR by pressing the record mode button, then later implies it can only be used in timer recordings. Engrish indeed, still, their manual is worded better than one from Liteon, they're the worst..... It seems the DRM100S is still listed as available on the 2001 Audio Video website, so I'll have to do some searching it seems. Actually Lordsmurf, how would you rate the 180 mode in the JVC compared to any other recorder you've used with the same recording time? Would it still look acceptable on a recording transferred from a tape in LP or EP mode?

[lordsmurf]

The specifications of FR180 give a bitrate allocation equal to a 1-hour (XP, FR60) DVD. The quality is extremely clean, no artifacts whatsoever. The 352x480 resolution is pretty much adequate for everything except DV (because DV is 720x480 high res).

As sad as it is, even the more compressed LP (FR240, 4-hour) mode on the JVC is better than the 2-hour or 3-hour on many other machines. Philips and Panasonic are the most obvious ones. LiteOn's 3-hour, for example, is about on par with JVC's 4-hour.

The JVC is really nothing special, in terms of why it works. All machines should work this well. It's just sound video knowledge put into the machine. You have proper bitrates in use, correct resolutions in use (allocation), and you have some filters to remove common noise (chroma, grain). I don't why other companies do all the stupid things they do (bad allocation, no filters, etc).

JVC makes a lot of equipment I would consider sort of ho-hum, like speakers, stereos, and cameras. But their DVD recorders and high end S-VHS VCRs are just really nice performers, way above the competition. It's not that they are doing anything extraordinary. Quite the contrary, it's because the other companies are doing poorly.

You NEVER EVER want to put more than 4 hours on a DVD (single layer media), regardless of who makes it. Again, it's all about sound video tech. Anything beyond 4 hours requires tiny bitrates, which forces dropped resolutions (and thereby deinterlacing). A single layer DVD with more than 4 hours is pure trash.

Just a little less than double are the numbers you use for DL media (3/5ths is a good calculation). DL media is not 2x SL media. It is about 40% more. It's 4.38GB vs 7.95GB.

[MeekloBraca]

Depending on what your recording youll get artifacting on stuff 2 hours and bigger no matter what DVD Recorder you use. It all depends on what goes into it. A nice cable/digital signal you can probably get upwards of 2-3 hour mode with no noticeable anything on it, but on a VHS tape it depends on how good the tape it.

Again I will say that the 100S was a big time dispointment. Its slow, loud and bright and the picture quality was sub par compared to the 70.

The Bay and A and B sound have the 100 available. They have excellent return policies as well.

[MeekloBraca]

Heres a question for you Smurf,

At what point do the JVC's FR mode switch resolution.

For example Anything 2 hour 50 minute + is set at a lower resolution than anything before it on a Panasonic. I read that on an earlier post and i tried it out setting FR mode to 3 hours and then Fr to 2 hour 50. The sound, color, picture, artifacting...a world of difference between them.

[jamiemark]

Heres a question for you Smurf,

At what point do the JVC's FR mode switch resolution.

For example Anything 2 hour 50 minute + is set at a lower resolution than anything before it on a Panasonic. I read that on an earlier post and i tried it out setting FR mode to 3 hours and then Fr to 2 hour 50. The sound, color, picture, artifacting...a world of difference between them.

Even at 3 hour, the resolution dropping to 352X480 doesn't bother me at all, a necessary compromise to avoid pixelation (I actually prefer it). Meeklo, are you speaking of an older Panasonic model here? The reason I ask is, I have a DMREH50, and it's LP mode is 720X480 resolution. I haven't really played around with different FR recordings on it, though, to see if at some time/point it changes the resolution to 352X480.

[jamiemark]

[quote="lordsmurf"]As sad as it is, even the more compressed LP (FR240, 4-hour) mode on the JVC is better than the 2-hour or 3-hour on many other machines. Philips and Panasonic are the most obvious ones. LiteOn's 3-hour, for example, is about on par with JVC's 4-hour.


Wow, that I HAVE to see for myself. The JVC I have now, the 70, has nice LP mode but I'm not sure I'd say it's as good or better than my Panasonic's SP mode. Again, it depends on the source material greatly I suppose .