A good recorder that will transfer difficult VHS tapes?

[siberwolf]

Hi everyone, this is my first time posting here. I'm looking for some advice / suggestions.

I currently use a Pioneer DVR-220 standalone DVD recorder that works great for me except for one issue. I have a large collection of live concert tapes (none of which are copy-protected) and certain tapes do not transfer properly. With some, the picture will drop out entirely... this will go on intermittently throughout the whole recording. During these drop outs, you still hear the audio, but the screen will go black. Others suddenly get wavy lines when I transfer them, but are otherwise ok (the original tapes do not have these lines on them).

The Pioneer can't play PAL discs - I realize this. All of my VHS tapes are NTSC, however I'm sure a few of them were transferred from original PAL tapes. I think that's probably one reason why I get blackouts when I try to transfer them. However, I have tapes that I have recorded off TV myself which are obviously not PAL sourced... they just happen to be older tapes that might have tracking issues (though they play fine in a VCR). I have the same blackout and wavy line issues with transferring these kinds of tapes. I've thought about trying to adjust the tracking on the tapes anyway, but my VCR doesn't have any way that I can find to adjust the tracking on it! (Are all newer VCRs like this? Because I remember being able to adjust the tracking on my old VCR units...)

First of all, I'm curious as to why this is happening in the first place? (The transfer issues.)

Secondly, can anyone recommend me another standalone recorder that is great in transferring these kinds of difficult tapes? I'd like something $200 or less, if possible.

Thanks for any help.

[jjeff]

VCR's generally do have a tracking control, although it may be hidden. On a older MGA VCR I would need to use the ch up ch down buttons on the main unit, when the tape was playing to adjust the tracking.
On a Sammy VCR it was the CH UP CH DOWN on the remote, again when the tape was playing. I would think most all VCR's would have a way of somehow overriding the auto tracking feature,
As far as your tapes, if they play perfect(or at least with out the black drop outs) you should be able to get a copy of the same. You may need to use a TBC or possibly something like a Sima CT-2 or 200. Even though you say the tapes may not have CP, the Sima or TBC will recreate a weak synch signal and should hopefully give you a petter PQ.
My CT-2 has worked this way for poorer quality tapes. Note some DVDR's also tend to have better circuits built in for handling things like this. I believe I've read people praising older JVC's for such things as tape conversions.
Maybe they'll care to comment.

[lordsmurf]

JVC and other LSI Logic chipset machines remove ugly tape noise -- chroma, grain, etc

[LCSHG]

I agree with lordsmurf on the LSI chipset

siberwolf -- your quote
"they just happen to be older tapes that might have tracking issues (though they play fine in a VCR)."

Is that the VCR that made the recording or any VCR. Is the VCR still playing the tape OK when the recording on the pioneer goes blank
I don't see an issue If the VHS recording was made from a PAL disk or any sorce as long as it was recorded

[Relayerman]

I've used lordsmurf's past recommendation on a JVC Super-VHS pro deck (model# escapes me) that cost me about $175, but it comes with builtin TBC and enough menu options to get most of those old VHS tapes stabilized enough for conversion work. That was my sole reason for buying one of those.

Aslo, don't forget to fast forward and rewind the tape to 'loosen' it up, especially if its been sitting for some time. They tend to get sticky over time.

I won't tell you that every tape will work with a great deck, because it really depends on the tape's condition. Worked in about 90% of my collection.

[orsetto]

The first two generations of Pioneer DVD recorders had ridiculously oversensitive encoder chipsets: they were fine for tuner and camcorder use but would trip all over themselves with frequent random blackouts from tapes that seemed perfectly normal. Your DVR-220 was the last of these "problem" Pioneers.

It is true the recorders with LSI chipset often give the best transfer quality, but image quality is not the whole story. If you are having tape issues, the LSI chipset can freak out almost as much as the old Pioneer chipset, but instead of blackouts you might get various image distortions. If you have a large collection of tapes with unpredictable stability issues, especially 2nd generation copies or recordings from noisy analog cable TV, you need a recorder with heavy-duty input stabilizers. In my experience nothing beats the Pioneer 531-533-633 series in this regard (the more recent 540, 543, 640, 450, 550, and 650 are nearly as good). It is almost impossible to trip up the encoder in these later Pioneers: Pioneer heard the criticism of their earlier units and took pains to improve them dramatically.

I use both a JVC DVD recorder with LSI chipset and a later-model Pioneer for my transfers. Each has its strengths and weaknesses: the LSI is distinctly better at longer recording settings of 150+ minutes, but is more prone to distortion when encoding less-than-perfect tapes. The Pioneer sacrifices a small amount of ultimate image quality but is an absolute rock at encoding problem tapes. My Pio 531 has such a solid encoder that it often allows me to switch off the TBC/DNR on the VHS playback decks, which is helpful with the occasional really odd tape. If you prefer to use an LSI -equipped DVD recorder for ALL your work, you absolutely MUST pair it with a high-end playback VCR that has built-in TBC/DNR features: the added detail encoded by the LSI makes it more sensitive to otherwise "invisible" junk VHS signals, so you need a VCR that can "pre-clean" the tape output. Later Pioneers will often let you get away with using a less-sophisticated VCR, although its still a good idea to have one with TBC/DNR anyway.

[deuce8pro]

It's very difficult to stabilize multi-generational vhs concert tapes. People who are just copying stuff they recorded off tv or commerical tapes arent gonna have the kind of issues if you are transferring multi-generational vhs tapes. First thing that isnt mentioned enough is correcting the black levil on these tapes. You must do that. So recording directly to a dvd recorder would probably not give you a correct black level. VHS if anything is saturated, especially multi generational. Even though there is a black level issue, stabilzing them is the number one issue in my opinion.

Look on ebay for either a JVC HRS-9600U or JVC HRS-9800U SVHS both slightly used, have them cleaned and then use either of these to playback your tapes with calibration turned off and the tbc/dnr turned on and set to auto/norm. Better yet get multiple decks if you can find them. Its not gonna take just one vcr for the job.
Then you want to find on ebay a used Panasonic ES-10 DVD recorder.
You want to run a s-video wire to that and make sure to turn its pass through DNR to on. Its gonna help stabilize to a degree. You also want to set the pass through input and output black level as Lord smurf mentioned in a previous post to both darker. From there I would pass it through my Digital camera that has a DNR in it, it will help further clean up the video. I would then use a firewire to pass it through to the JVC dvd recorder with LSI chipset. From there you want to record in XP mode. Unless your tape is like 2 hours of talk shows or something then SP would be ok. But you want to use XP for the higher bitrate. You can also record a LPCM audio track. I would do that as well. The JVC DVD Recorder you will need is a DRM-100. I guess one might pop up on ebay. Be on the look out. It has one of the best encoders you will find in a dvd recorder.
And as much as all this equipment is important, the encoder is as important as the SVHS deck itself.
So be sure to invest in the JVC, if you want the best quality. Others have recommended Toshiba.
But with all those menu options, id need to invest in tylenol as well.

[siberwolf]

I just wanted to thank everyone for their comments. Orsetto, that explains A LOT. Thank you. And deuce8pro, your advice / specific recommendations have given me something to think about. I appreciate it.

My cheap Sanyo VCR that I had been using just died on me so I think I am definitely going to look into getting a JVC SVHS pro deck, as Relayerman suggested. But if my main issue with black outs is mostly related to my Pioneer unit as orsetto explained, then I think I am definitely going to look into getting a second recorder as well. Thanks for the suggestions!

[lordsmurf]

Orsetto, in 5 years of using LSI chipsets (Apex, JVC, LiteOn, others), I've never seen one "freak out" at anything. I don't know what you're referring to.

That sounds like a bad tape in need of a better VCR, not something that can be blamed on a DVD recorder. The JVC 9000 series is still the best of that lot. The Panasonic AG19xx series is a good runner-up, sometimes playing tapes the JVC has trouble on (and sometimes not -- and sometimes the Panasonic cannot play tapes the JVC can).

[orsetto]

LS, like anything else, different people have different VHS recordings. "Blame" is not the word I would use- rather, pointing out that certain recorders REQUIRE better-grade VCRs to feed them can help people understand an issue they may have given up hope of fixing. The LSI chipset, at least as it is implemented in the several JVC recorders I use, go haywire any time I try to transfer a VHS tape recorded from New York's analog cable TV. It is hard to explain: playback from VCR direct to television looks fine, but when routed thru an LSI-based recorder it looks like every second scan line pulls in an opposite direction, the cumulative tearing and swirling effect makes the resulting encodes totally unwatchable: I mean, there's no identifiable picture there! The LSI chipset seizes on some sort of "invisible" defect in the cable signal and makes a mess of it. It occurs when using any "ordinary" VHS deck as the source, or in the case of JVC combo units when using their built-in vcr. This really disturbed me, because I prefer LSI encodes, and have hundreds of tapes recorded from TWC analog cable before they upgraded to digital a couple years ago. Eventually I found this forum and read your suggestions to use a JVC vcr with TBC/DNR as playback source for DVD transfer work. Much as I've had bad luck with JVC vcrs, I bought a 9911 and "voila", it instantly "fixed" whatever ailed the analog cable tapes, feeding a smooth signal into my LSI recorders. Naturally, with my jinxed JVC track record, my 9911 broke down 94 days past its warranty. I replaced it with a Mitsubishi HS-HD2000u DVHS deck which has the identical TBC/DNR features, and has not failed me in two years (knock wood).

BTW, this encoding issue was not limited to just LSI-based recorders: it was visible, albeit to a slightly lesser degree, when I used the early Pioneer recorders 220, 510, and 520. The only DVD recorders I've used that could "self-filter" the crap from my analog cable VHS recordings were the later Pioneer 531 and 640: with these, I can use any ordinary VCR for playback, the JVC/MGA TBC/DNR is not necessary (great for when I need to use an old "cheapie" vcr to transfer badly mistracking tapes that give the "fancier" vcrs fits.)

[LCSHG]

lordsmurf Quote

Orsetto, in 5 years of using LSI chipsets (Apex, JVC, LiteOn, others), I've never seen one "freak out" at anything. I don't know what you're referring to.
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I Do Agree
My use of the LSI is to the liteon /ilo units and is for over 3 years and I have NEVER had a problem much less a Freak out . I have not had the unit freak out or not perform excellently and produce an excellent quality DVD




Oresseto
I’ve read ypur posts and fail to see that any problem is with the LSI chipset or a DVD recorder. I can’t believe its Operator Error and rereading the posts I would think that you have some real problems with the VCR units

Besides Panasonic JVC and Toshiba VCR units, I also have a Go Video 2150 combo unit, bought at Costco for $59 II and use it exclusively I t has automatic tracking. The DVD is play only The VCR records in SP or SLP only. That’s fine as I don’t use it for recording
In rewind, the tape is wound Flat and just tight enough and many times it pays to run the tape out and rewind it with the Go Video It will play a tape that the other units have trouble with . The Go Vudeo does not have trouble with any, recorded or commercial tape
The quality is as good as that played in the unit the tape was recorded in In SP the GO Video produces a very good recording
I have not found problems wiyh the LSI chip, in fact I feel it is better than any other, I have trnsfered over 2500 tapes and laser disks to DVD with the liton/ilo units and the LSI chip All are excellent, and have not had any problems A tape recorded at SLP is not the best and when transferred to disk any such poor recording is noticeable BUT- is much less with an LSI chip

[deuce8pro]

lordsmurf Quote

Orsetto, in 5 years of using LSI chipsets (Apex, JVC, LiteOn, others), I've never seen one "freak out" at anything. I don't know what you're referring to.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I Do Agree
My use of the LSI is to the liteon /ilo units and is for over 3 years and I have NEVER had a problem much less a Freak out . I have not had the unit freak out or not perform excellently and produce an excellent quality DVD




Oresseto
I’ve read ypur posts and fail to see that any problem is with the LSI chipset or a DVD recorder. I can’t believe its Operator Error and rereading the posts I would think that you have some real problems with the VCR units

Besides Panasonic JVC and Toshiba VCR units, I also have a Go Video 2150 combo unit, bought at Costco for $59 II and use it exclusively I t has automatic tracking. The DVD is play only The VCR records in SP or SLP only. That’s fine as I don’t use it for recording
In rewind, the tape is wound Flat and just tight enough and many times it pays to run the tape out and rewind it with the Go Video It will play a tape that the other units have trouble with . The Go Vudeo does not have trouble with any, recorded or commercial tape
The quality is as good as that played in the unit the tape was recorded in In SP the GO Video produces a very good recording
I have not found problems wiyh the LSI chip, in fact I feel it is better than any other, I have trnsfered over 2500 tapes and laser disks to DVD with the liton/ilo units and the LSI chip All are excellent, and have not had any problems A tape recorded at SLP is not the best and when transferred to disk any such poor recording is noticeable BUT- is much less with an LSI chip

Did you transfer the over 2500 tapes with some kind of black level correction before you recorded it on your Liton/Ilo unit? Thats one of the things that has to be done before you encode on pretty much any of these LSI chip decks.

[LCSHG]

[deuce8pro]

Your quote and question
Did you transfer the over 2500 tapes with some kind of black level correction before you recorded it on your Liton/Ilo unit? Thats one of the things that has to be done before you encode on pretty much any of these LSI chip decks.
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NO
And they were not all tapes. As said there were a number of laser disks in the transfer some 1200 to 1500
To stay on the issue of the LSI chip
I don’t know where all this so called info about the LSI chip is coming from.
The machines as I believe all standalones are a WYSIWYG [What You See Is What You Get] There is Nothing done prior to recording and Nothing Needs to be Done

An example
The flick WaterWorld with Kevin Costner. All Commercial 1;33 and 2.35. A laserdisk in 2.35 and a DVD in 2.35
They would be recorded in the format they were originaly made in
The LSI does a heads up job on all and one would be hard pressed to see a difference from the original.


You Said
“Did you transfer the over 2500 tapes with some kind of black level correction before you recorded it on your Liton/Ilo unit? Thats one of the things that has to be done before you encode on pretty much any of these LSI chip decks.”


NO that’s Not Right
Are you saying that if you do this. A standalone unit will change the Aspect Ratio

To Add
If anyone is having problems with tape to DVD
Blaming the LSI is a non isue
I would look to a problem with the VCR unit or possibility MV

[orsetto]

Oh, for crying out loud- after all these years and with most LSI recorders already long gone from the market, people are STILL having a breakdown at the mere mention that LSI is not the holy grail cure-all for everything? Hello: NOTHING is 100% perfect for 100% of users 100% of the time.

Re-read what I've said: I *like* the LSI-based standalones. I *use* the LSI-based standalones. I have *never* suggested anyone not use them or avoid them. All I have done is report MY specific experience with them, and solutions I've found that will get me the best performance from them. I post about my LSI-based JVC experiences no less objectively than I've posted about my various Pioneer experiences. EVERY standalone recorder, any make, any encoder, will have certain issues that may need to be worked around DEPENDING ON YOUR OWN SOURCES. Again, *depending on YOUR sources*. My VHS collection is not the same as yours, yours is not like mine, there are thousands of analog hardware combinations people have used over the last 30 years to make their VHS and Beta tapes. Some VCRs created problem 1st, 2nd or 3rd generation tapes: mistracking, chroma or luminance noise, whatever. Certain analog cable services output a signal that is so far off spec you're lucky you can watch it live, forget about having recorded it to VHS and later trying to capture that to DVD.

Perhaps 90% of the users of any given standalone DVD recorder never encounter an issue: that majority does not invalidate the experience of the 10% who *do* see occasional issues, and they should report any workarounds or solutions here so that others can benefit and not waste as much time on trial and error. I thought that was the entire point of this forum? For some newbies, yes, there may be beginners' operator error involved. For those of us who've been using video at home and professionally for ages, cut us some slack as having a clue, okay?

There is no manufacturer of recorders with a perfect track record. Some Panasonics recorded murky, some didn't. Some Pioneers blanked the screen at the slightest tape dropout, some didn't. Some Toshibas had black level errors, as did some JVCs. Some didn't. That is the reality, claiming it isn't true because you've never seen it is not helpful. IF you experience an issue, it is likely at least one other person has, and if you're lucky that person posted here with an answer. In my case, SOME of my VHS played on SOME vcrs don't transfer well to DVD and even less well thru an LSI encoder. My solution is to play the *problem* tapes on a TBC/DNR machine. The same advice LordSmurf and others have suggested for years: my post above simply says "here's another goofy issue that can be solved by a JVC/MGA hi-end VHS deck". A lot of people fly by the seat of their pants and get away with using bargain-basement VHS decks as their source, they don't know anything about TBC/DNR decks until they finally hit a snag and go researching on these forums. So it pays for us all to report any random problems and solutions, even if we think we're a minority, even if we repeat ourselves. Someone new will always need these tips.

[lordsmurf]

The "freak out" you refer to has NOTHING to do with LSI chipsets, and EVERYTHING to do with "false anti-copy" being detected. This affects virtually every capture card and DVD recorder out there, it's not just limited to LSI chipset machines. In fact, the chipset has nothing to do with it, this is detected elsewhere in the machine. Any machine.

I'm sorry your cable signal sucks on some channels. Or that the tapes are poor in quality. But it's not the LSI giving you grief. We all deal with these errors in some area, at some point in time. Buy a TBC, and the problems disappear.

Aim the anger at Macrovision and movie studios, who have implemented an ass-backwards BS "protection" that is nothing more than an artificial video error. When a real video error exists, the same "protection" kicks in.

None of this really helps the original poster.

[orsetto]

LordSmurf, I appreciate that you're trying to understand what I'm getting at, but we may as well all agree to disagree since apparently no one else here has seen what I've seen on dozens of tapes (not commercial, not Macrovisioned, not with anti-copy signal: just ordinary tapes). Whatever. My posts were originally in direct response to the OPs question, which was whether his particular recorder could have problems encoding his particular concert tapes. I replied yes, some encoders on some recorders are sensitive in different ways to different tapes. I gave my experience with JVC (LSI) and my own similar Pioneer (non-LSI) as examples, saying BOTH displayed SOME issues on SOME tapes with the LSI being more sensitive on occasion. I also advised that switching to a TBC/DNR-equipped vcr solved my issues, and might do the same for the OP.

That is the same damned thing everyone and his mother has been advising on this forum for several years. So I don't understand why suddenly I'm being jumped all over for repeating it? No one is criticizing LSI or non-LSI chipsets, or saying one is "better" than the other, that wasn't my point at all. Not at all. The point is, with some combinations of tape, VCR and DVD recorder you will need additional accessories or to use different hardware. The encoder in the OPs particular model of Pioneer standalone blacks out when recording from poor VHS sources, so he needs either an external TBC to help the Pioneer cope or to try another more recent DVD recorder which locks more solidly onto poor VHS tapes. In either case he may also benefit from a better VHS deck with TBC/DNR. If my examples offended any religious beliefs about various encoders, I apologize, but to insist LSI recorders "never" have an issue is as wrong as insisting the Pioneer 220/520 recorders "never" black out on VHS sources. All chipsets WILL choke in some way on some below-average VHS sources: if you're aware of your recorder's "personality" you can compensate properly and fix it, but if you live in denial your transfers will be terrible. That's my hard-won experience, for whoever can use it. And yes, I will shut the hell up now and move on.

[LCSHG]

OK


My and other posts were to indicate that often what might be seen as a cheap VCR could do a better job than what mght be considered a better unit
I did not mean to defend the LSI chip. NO NEED they work very well. An quite frankly I fail to see the issues presented or that anf fault lies with the LSI or I should think any chip. I’ve never had an issue with the LSI and I do not need aTBC. for any tape transfer, Which has nothing to do with the LSI

The liteon /ilo recorders that use it had problems with MV [overreacting to it] with the first units and later the firmware used caused a green tint on certain recordings’

None of which was Any problem with the :LSI chip or would with any other chip.
It waas a firmware issue and these problems were corrected by liteon with firmware corrections
A number of DVD units [the early Pioneers being one] did so and often they would react as the tape had MV when it did not

There is considrable info on ths thread and stherwolf would have to think it over and evaluate it and get or do what they feel is best.

[siberwolf]

Guys, don't presume that everyone that posts on this forum is male. Because I'm not. And all this LSI talk has gone a bit over my head...

Right now I am in need of getting a new VCR. Per advice, I've been looking at JVC S-VHS decks on ebay. I was wondering... the 9000 units were suggested in this thread, but would there be a huge difference if I went with a 3000 or 5000 level unit? Would it significantly matter? The 9000 units seem to be so much more expensive.

At this point, my plan is to get a new VCR and see if that helps with transferring certain tapes. But if the problem is inherent in my Pioneer unit which it does seem to be, eventually I'm going to have to just fork out the money for another recorder.

I don't know if this is worth mentioning or not, but I have a Sima GoDVD that I actually bought a couple months ago because I thought it might help with stabilizing the video in my case. Would it, do you think? The problem I'm having with the Sima though is I can't seem to figure out how to connect it to my VCR. I've currently got it connected up to my DVD player + DVD recorder to deal with any Macrovision issues on DVDs (shhh) and it works ok, but no matter how I try to connect it up to my VCR + DVD recorder, I can't get it working for tape transfers. But my connection set up is a little odd... because I have an older TV with a lack of A/V inputs - everything is basically routed through my VCR (meaning: my satellite box, dvd recorder, and dvd player all run through my VCR in some way). I guess I'll have to keep using trial and error with that, to see if I can get the Sima functioning for tape transfers. But I can't do anything more with that again until I get a new VCR, so...

[orsetto]

Ooops! So sorry, Ms. Siberwolf Didn't mean to assume you were a guy, if a poster doesn't mention their gender we sort of generically say "his post", etc.

Anyway, to your most recent questions: as mentioned earlier, the specific problem you are having with a handful of your tapes is due to a known flaw in your Pioneer 220 DVD recorder. Working around that flaw would probably be more expense and more trouble than its worth to you. Keep the Pioneer: its a great unit for off-air, cable, and most VHS recordings. But for the handful of "messy" concert tapes and the ones with tracking problems, just go to Wal*Mart and buy the $50 generic DVD recorder they often have on sale there. This machine should not have the picture-dropout reaction like your Pioneer and should allow you to make reasonably good DVDs of those difficult tapes. Buying an accessory TBC box to compensate for the Pioneer dropouts could cost $150-300, as would a JVC 9000-type VCR with no guarantee it will totally fix the Pioneer issue (the JVC 3000 and 5000 series will not help you, you'd need a 7000, 8000 or 9000). Unless you have a LOT of problem tapes and money to spare, its much cheaper and easier to just buy the backup DVD recorder. As long as your existing VCR is playing most of your "normal" tapes well, there's no need to replace it: you wouldn't notice any improvement unless you spent $$$ for a model with TBC/DNR, and even those sometimes cause as many picture distortions as they solve, especially on things like converted PAL>NTSC tapes. There are no cure-alls, everythings a trade-off: for folks with less than say 200 tapes, a good initial strategy is to add new equipment only if/when you hit a snag that you can't get around otherwise.

Since your older television has no AV inputs, there is no way to hook up the Sima that would let you view the image going from VCR to Sima to DVD recorder. You will need to either borrow an extra VCR, or buy an RF Converter box for your TV (these cost $15-30, look for something like the Terk MOD-34)). If you borrow a vcr, play the tapes on that thru the Sima to your DVD recorder, and you will be able to monitor the DVD recorder thru your current VCR feeding the TV. If you buy the RF converter, plug it into your TV. Connect your existing VCR AV outputs to the Sima, then the Sima to your DVD recorder, then your DVD recorder AV outs to the RF converter. This will let you see what the DVD recorder is doing. Going forward you would use the RF Converter box like you used to use your VCR: anything you want to view on your TV, connect it to the RF converter. The advantage here is the RF converter frees up your VCR and will not react to Macrovision the way your VCR does when you play DVDs thru it, so you should also see an improvement in picture quality on some DVDs.

[Marvingj]

Interesting. To LSI or not......

[wabjxo]

But for the handful of "messy" concert tapes and the ones with tracking problems, just go to Wal*Mart and buy the $50 generic DVD recorder they often have on sale there.

I was just at Wal-Mart getting my Magnavox converter box and got excited cuz I saw tons of Maggy look-a-like boxes with a price of $29.95 and not a sale... they were all VCRs. So now, we can say go to WM and get a $30 VCR?