Need guidance transferring analog tapes to DVD

[mjl]

I have spent a couple of hours reading posts and "how to" info on this site, so I now have at least some basic knowledge. Here is my situation:
1. I have old VHS tapes and analog 8mm tapes I want to preserve and make into DVD's.
2. I want these DVD's to have menus and so forth.
3. I of course want to optimize the quality.
4. I do not mind spending time to do this. I plan to do it a little at a time and want to do it right.
5. EDITING is big question. For the most part I probably will just want straight dubs, but with some things, like my wedding video, I will eventually want to edit. (I realize that editing requirements may govern the choice of how I proceed.)
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So here are my questions:

1. Should I purchase an analog to mpeg2 converter such as the Happaugue PVR models I see mentioned frequently? I am unclear whether there are other converters that convert analog to DV. (Which I would edit and then convert to mpeg2 when ready for DVD??)
I understand that mpeg2 is compressed and thus lossy and that it is not ideal for editing because it does not contain all the info of frames in between the "key frames."

2. Am I better off converting analog to DV first because DV is commonly edited?

3. Another option, I realize, is to just buy a DV camcorder that includes an analog to dv converter within it. Is there ant benefiting to this approach? (I do eventually need a new camcorder... but that's a topic for another forum!)

4. Is it completely impractical to go with raw avi video? (I have a 100 gig hard drive.)

5. Are there solutions that have all if the above so I could, for example, do raw video with the wedding video and straight mpeg for most of the other stuff?

6. One more twist: I own a Panasonic DVD Video Recorder (Model DMR-E60) which is a reaslly easy way to record a DVD from analog. It doesn't let me do the fancy menus I want. Any merit to recording a DVD on it, then transferruing the video frokm the dvd into my pc, and authoring a new dvd from that? Would I lose any quality in the process or is it just a carbon copy?

Anyway, any thoughts, insights, suggestions are welcome. Thanks

[mikiem]

FWIW & all...

There's a bunch of people that prefer to go thru a DV device, like a separate box or your camcorder. This encodes the analog video to avi files compressed with the DV format, which is then transfered to your hard drive without re-encoding -- just copied.

Otherwise there are separate boxes that encode to mpg2, or you can use hardware that captures video, using software to compress it into avi files using a variety of codecs, from wmv to real to mpg4 to mpg2 or mjpeg. Bunch of people like going that route too, and each group will often tell you their way is best. There's pros and cons each way, and you'll likely find them all searching here and at doom9.org.

Raw, or nearly so avi files are possible, but probably a waste given your already VHS footage. MPG2 is editable, as are most formats, but the gotcha is in the software. Mjpeg & DV can be edited, and the only recompression involved is when you change something, and then only the effected frames are recompressed. In theory the same can be said for the other formats, but software to do so is rare, if it exists, meaning the complete video will be recompressed, and that means some loss of quality.

In my personal experience [all my opinions and not asking for a fight guys ] capturing to mpg2 with a constant bitrate of 20 works well -> then I use DGIndex & Avisynth or VFAPI to work with the video by proxy, editing and re-encoding to mpg2 DVD spec. My hardware is tuned to mpg2, and does better with it then with capturing avi.

Mpg2 and other formats don't usually store a complete set of data for every frame, & a lot of folks say this makes it no good for editing. I disagree, and have captured all I frame in mpg2, wmv etc. (giving complete frame storage) & then compared the results with std encoding (& incomplete frame storage). Doesn't seem to make a quality difference, though straight cuts & joins are easier since they go to the nearest (complete) I frame. IF you think about it, any way you do it your PC has to decode each, individual frame, & then display or otherwise do something with it. I'm not saying any of these formats are great for editing, just that the absence of complete frame data isn't why.

Regarding your recorder, I personally dislike hardware mpg2, simply because it forces some compromises somewhere -- you can get too much compression trying to save disk space, or too little and run out, whereas on a PC you usually can just go for max quality & re-encode later. That doesn't mean using your recorder won't work, or that the gains from a higher bitrate capture will have any impact on quality -- again, you're already at vhs. I'd say try it and see if the quality is up to your standards.

As far as any tips, not sure where to begin actually. Most will depend I guess on your method of capture.

[FulciLives]

I would get either the Canopus ADVC-110 (which is the replacement of the now no-longer-made ADVC-100) or the DataVideo DAC-100

These are external devices that connect to your computer using FIREWIRE (aka IEEE 1394 aka i.link) and will convert any analog video input (composite or S-video) to DV format on the computer.

Your video is now in a form that is easy to edit and manipulate plus this gives you the benefit of using a software MPEG-2 DVD converter program (such as CCE or TMPGEnc Plus or Mainconcept MPEG encoder).

You can get a camcorder with analog-to-digital pass-thru but if you live in NTSC land then you are better off with the external box mentioned first as they can account for the difference in NTSC black level.

The other option, as you described, is to record on your stand alone DVD recorder and transfer to the computer. If you do this correctly you will NOT loose any quality. Editing is somewhat limited but with MPEG-VCR or VideoReDo then it becomes much easier so it is possible just not as "easy" as DV AVI editing.

If you do use the Panasonic make sure for home footage to only use the 1-hour mode for "best" quality.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Captain315]

I might mention that the Mpeg Video Wizard is a good program for editing mpgs if that's the way you want to go. I use it and and like it a lot.

[mjl]

Thanks for the posts! I have a followup question: When I think about it, I have two goals. One is to simply digitize old analog tapes in order to preserve them.... straight encoding - no editing - and that's it. BUT a secondary concern is to have the ability to digitally edit them in the future should I want to. Here's an example: I digitize home movies and now I have them all on DVD's. Then, a few years from now, I decide that I want to edit together a compilation of all the New Years Eve videos from each year, so I end up with them all in a row on one DVD. My hope was that once I digitize the video the fitrst time, I will never have to lose quality in the future because --- it's DIGITAL... all 1's and 0's. But the more I read, the more I am confused about compression-caused quality loss in future editing.
MIKIEM: You wrote, "Mjpeg & DV can be edited, and the only recompression involved is when you change something, and then only the affected frames are recompressed." So are you saying that DV can be edited without quality loss, but MPG2 cannot? If this is true, would it make sense to encode to DV (which is compressed AVI)... then burn a DVD (which is mpg2)... but also save the DV as a data file on another DVD for possible future editing????
FULCILIVES: You wrote that if I encode a DVD on my standalone Panasonic DVD recorder and then import it into my DVD editor, make edits, and then create a new DVD, I will not lose quality. But I thought with mpg2 (which is what a DVD is) you do lose quality when you edit and make a new DVD because you are decompressing and recompressing. Am I mistaken?
Also, could you explain further what you mean about an external box being better than a camcorder with analog-to-digital pass-thru? You say the reason is that the camcorder doesn't account for the difference in NTSC black level. What does this mean, and how does it affect piture quality?
Finally, CAPTAIN315, thanks for the tip on the software. If I go the mpeg route I will check it out. Thanks to one and all... and Happy New Year!

[Captain315]

mjl.... I could stand to be corrected on this so take it for what it's worth. Since a video has to be in mpg form to prepare and burn to DVD, I find it easier to just work in mpg from the beginning. I capture and edit my video in mpg. Some will say that you can't edit an mpg easily without losing sync with the audio. I can only say that the MPEG Video Wizard program allows you to do just about everything you can with avi files and do it a lot easier. I have never had a sync problem or found something I wanted to do that wasn't possible. I'm not associated with that program in any way. I only mention it because of its ease of use and finish quality. Once you play around with it for a day, you'll be surprised at everything it can do. You might want to download the trial version and take a look at it. Other than that, I prefer Vegas for avi work. Everyone has their favorites to be sure, but these two programs are the easiest I've found to use. I prefer one program than having to jump back and forth between three or four free programs to get the job done. I find myself getting confused that way. If there are any questions you need answered, feel free to PM me and I will help if I can. Good Luck!

[mikiem]

"So are you saying that DV can be edited without quality loss, but MPG2 cannot? If this is true, would it make sense to encode to DV (which is compressed AVI)... then burn a DVD (which is mpg2)... but also save the DV as a data file on another DVD for possible future editing???? "

At a studio they'd save them as tape or on removable HD or... So if you want the original quality, yes, you could save the avi's, though the files will be so huge DVD storage would be impractical. Again however, you're talking about vhs, meaning the quality is already low enough that I don't know you'd lose anything worth mention extracting and working with the mpg2 video on DVDs you cut. Perhaps a camera would be a viable option as you could record everything to DV tape, and given proper storage, have those near originals as a backup for the future. THe tape will deteriorate, but it's still digital, and losses will be less then something like VHS.

You will lose some quality every time you have a generation of video. With analog tape it's more or less from signal loss & tape wear when making copies. Digitally, it's when re-compressing &/or doing color conversions, which are another issue entirely. An advantage of saving DV tapes I imagine is you'd still have that original color space preserved, wouldn't suffer losses if converting from mpg2 to another format with a different colorspace in the future.

FWIW: with apologies 'cause I don't want to step on anyone's toes... Our broadcast specs here in the US date from the 50's, are based on voltages, cycles, frequencies etc... All the stuff a signal should be before sending it out from a broadcast antenae. One of those specs calls for a voltage floor so to speak, corresponding to how black something can be.

This can be an issue if you're going to broadcast your work, and/or might cause prob. if exceeded but usually on a very old TV. Some electronics devices honor this spec more then others, and there are tons of discussions on-line you can find if you're currious -- Adam Wilt's site is good.

On the other hand, I would think it's also pretty much irrelevant in your situation, as anything your VCR outputs is going to be in spec regardless. You won't have any superblack or whites unless you add them in editing -- PCs have another color space from TVs, so there's always a conversion of sorts. With most editing software not a problem unless you specifically choose to alter things.

Finally, if it helps... Unless you go very high end, most any format you use is going to have some loss, so it's a matter of tradeoffs. I keep saying VHS isn't that great a quality anyway, but at the same time I've got boxes of old photos I'm (far too) slowly digitizing -- I feel terrible every time I encounter one I didn't get to soon enough, and the negative's deteriorated, so I think I can see what you're talking about when it comes to maintaining your video as best possible. My approach is to save the original negatives, save the original scans, & save the new jpgs.

[trhouse]

Just a thought but instead of,

vhs -> avi ( edit ) -> dvd-video

some alternative work flows are,

vhs -> dvd-ram ( edit ) -> dvd-video

vhs -> dvd+VR or dvd-VR mode ( edit ) -> dvd-video

The last two are mpeg's which allow recorders like the Pioneer 531H to do frame accurate edits. It can encode vhs to the hdd, burn to a dvd vr mode disk which can be transfered back to the hdd without re-encoding, edit, and burn to dvd-video. No PC required.

[tluxon]

For my time and money, there's not a route that balances ease with results much better than VCR -> DVD recorder -> PC for editing with Mpeg Video Wizard and authoring and finally burning to DVD. Just be sure to have the DVD recorder encode any high motion high detail source video at xp (approx 4GB/hour bitrate) and everything else at no less than sp (approx 8GB/hour bitrate).

I haven't used an editor that is faster and easier than Mpeg Video Wizard for the features it offers and it only re-encodes the frames immediately adjoining the edit points, resulting in minimal loss of detail and file creation time.

Tim

[mjl]

tluxon: I downloaded mpeg video wizard as you suggested and it does look like a very nice program. Just one question: I cannot see any way to create menus or "chapters" for a dvd with the software. Is it not intended to do this or am I just missing how to do it?

[FulciLives]

tluxon: I downloaded mpeg video wizard as you suggested and it does look like a very nice program. Just one question: I cannot see any way to create menus or "chapters" for a dvd with the software. Is it not intended to do this or am I just missing how to do it?

Creating a menu and setting chapter points is something you do with a DVD Authoring program.

One popular choice around these here parts is TMPGEnc DVD Author which now comes in a slightly more robust version called TSUNAMI MPEG DVD AUTHOR PRO.

Here is a link to other DVD Authoring programs: CLICK HERE

Good Luck

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
The old version only allows GOP edits meaning your editing is not frame accurate. The new PRO version allows for frame accurate editing (or so I am told as I am still using the old version for now). Anyways my point is this ... you might not need MPEG VIDEO WIZARD if all you desire is simple cut editing.

[trhouse]

With many hard drive recorders, you can edit and do chapters without a PC and additional software, but the PC route provides flexibility and more attractive menus.