Unsolvable problem: heavy frame loss- who can help me?

[gvds]

who can help me with this "unsolvable" problem ?

During analog video capturing I have a great number of frame-loss. ( Choppy video result)
I am already searching months in order to solve this problem. Almost each piece of hardware is replaced. The only items which are not replaced are: microprocessor, DVD-writer, DVD-reader and the boot hard disk. ( memory=1 GB RAM, motherboard, powersupply, graphical card , 2nd hard drive(data) etc... is already replaced)
I have also contacted some computerexperts but unfortunately they couldn't help me either. They are claiming the probem is software related but they can't locate the softwareproblem.
The guides which I found on this site haven't solved it either.
My computer is working very fine and really fast for all other major applications I'm using!

I am using an ASUS P4800-C motherboard. (P4-2.8 Ghz) I have 2 options to capture: via my Asus capture card or via my VIVO ATI Radeon X800 card.(256M RAM) The frame-loss issue pops up in both ways.

It doesn't matter which software that I use: Powerdirector, Pinacle Studio 9, Ulead Studio 9, Moviemaker 2 ,....
All applications encounter the same problem. Even Virtualdub is dropping massive frames.

I believe the chance is very small that this is still a hardware related issue due to the fact that almost everything is replaced. So if it's software who can tell me where I do have to look please? What do you think? Could this be a "codec-problem"?
Is the cause a bios-setng, which one,...?
Or...?

Thanks for any advice. I'm a bit desperate.

[TaoTeWingChun]

OK, I'm game. Here goes:

Memory -> 1GB is good
CPU -> 2.8GHz P4 is good
Hard Drive -> Better have a separate 40 - 80GB+ drive free for video capturing, and make sure it isn't the same as your boot drive; Also, make sure it is at least a 7200RPM drive and has a nice big cache (8 MB's is a good choice)

Your CPU/Memory/Drive specs are absolutely critical for performance issues. A lack of adequate hardware in any of these categories absolutely will make capturing a nightmare.

Aside from those, the software you're using and the methodolgy/cabling used also make a big difference.

As we've only scratched the surface here, please post back with your PC specifics so we can pick it apart and dissect further.

Cheers!

TTWC

[thecoalman]

Is your analog source VHS or directly from cable?

What are your capture settings?

[gvds]

My PC configuration:

Intel pentium 4 2.8Ghz
1024MB RAM
2 seperate IDE hard disks: 1 (slower) 5400 boot-disk of 80G + 1 capture (data) drive (7200rpm) of 160G.
ATI graphical card Radeon X800 - 256M ( with a capture VIVO possibility)
1 ASUS capture card
Creative Audigy 2 ZS soundcard
1 ASUS DVD writer
1 ASUS DVD reader

I hope I didn't forget anything.
Don't forget: The performance of my system is really great with everything, EXCEPT... videocapturing...

My videoSource= VHS (camcorder or videorecorder) via Video composiet or via cable ( same problem)

[thecoalman]

My videoSource= VHS (camcorder or videorecorder) via Video composiet or via cable ( same problem)

It could be your tapes or VCR or both, have you tried capturing footage directly from a TV broadcast?

And what are your capture settings? If your trying to capture directly to MPEG try capturing to AVI using the Huffyuv codec.

Also make sure the disc your capturing to is ion DMA mode. Start>control panel>system>hardware>.....

Last but not least make sure you turn off virus scanning software or anything else you may have running in the background. While capturing hit ctrl-alt-delete which will bring up windows task manager. Check the CPU usage column for anything that might be using a lot of CPU beside your capturing software.

[gvds]

Yes, I have the same problem while using direct TV broadcast.
If tried capturing Mpeg and AVI ( not yet huffyuv - which program do I use best for this?)

My disks are in DMA mode. That's already checked.

There are also not running other programs in the background. Even a forced close with "enditall" gives the same problem.

During the frame-loss my processor works on +/- 70%. So no overload on the processor.

Does somebody has some other tips that I can try please?

[thecoalman]

Defragged your capture drive lately?

[cd090580]

Maybe your ide cable is defective. Make sure you use a 80 wire ide cable and avoid connecting a hard disk with a cd rom drive

[gvds]

Since these capture-problems began I defrag my disks once a week.
The IDE cable is also a hardware item wich is already replaced.

[pbwgap]

I have been using P3 800MHz with just 256Mb RAM, Win XP, PIC Video at Quality 19 and Norton AV running behind, but I get only 50 frames drop in three hours capture. No problems.

During the course of time, I noticed one other issue. When I capture at 720X576, no problem at all. But if I reduce it to 352X576, it drops like hell, except with a direct TV capture. So, you may try with each reslution available.

I have also read somewhere that onboard Sound/VGA cards can also casue problems. So, use separate PCI cards, if you are already not using them.

[junkmalle]

During the frame-loss my processor works on +/- 70%. So no overload on the processor.

No! 70 percent doesn't mean there was always 30 percent left. It's an average CPU usage over some period of time. It could have been pegged at 100 percent for 1/50 second (and maybe it really needed more) followed by 40 percent over the next 1/50 second -- averaging out to 70 percent. In my experience, with software compression, once you get over ~50 percent you'll start dropping frames.

You should look into using a less demanding codec for capture. HUFFYUV for example.

[dinkob]

Even if the cable was replaced you should still check that it can handle ultra dma mode.

The cd-rom ones are usually thicker then Hard Disk ones (they are thinner and not so easily bent) although they can still work up to UDMA 2 or 3.

I have asus P4800S-X 3Ghz HT set to OFF (win2k OS so it doesn't really matter if hyperthreading is off or on and it screws up my WinTV software) which I believe is rated as crappy yet I can still deal with capturing no problem for the most part (2 cap cards; Pinnacle PCTV with it's own original WDM drivers from the CD and using VirtualVCR + Hauppage WinTV with VirtualDub VFW drivers installed - Pinnacle works slightly better though at 720x480).

When your computer boots your post should say UDMA 5 or 6. Do you see those current transfer rates?

[Nelson37]

Have you read the Very Extensive sticky on "why does my system drop frames"? It would appear not. Read this, study it, then read it again. Apply the suggestions, many of which I will repeat.

What codec are you using to capture? If uncompressed AVI, that is most likely your issue right there.

Do the frame drops come in clusters or small groups continously?

Suggestions - Put capture drive on second channel, (assuming boot drive is on first channel) and disconnect all other drives. Boot drive on IDE0, capture drive on IDE1. Test this configuration.

Eliminate audio by capturing with no audio selected. Also disconnect audio from sound card. Test both of these configurations seperately and together.

Lower the capture resolution. This will test several issues.

Lastly, in comparison to other tasks which work well. There is no other task you will do with your PC which will stress your hard drive throughput like video capture. Nothing else even comes close. HD throughput is usually where the issue is.

[mgh]

I had a PIII 800 with 20 GB hard disk and the pixelview tv pro card (Bt based). With the provided vfw drivers, i could capture at 720x576 at 25 fps using picvideo codec without problem provided i captured audio uncompressed.
Now I have PIV 2.4 GHz with 40 MB hard disk and dual boot 98 and xp and btwincap drivers. With the same card I can capture to 720x576 mpeg2 at 6000 kbps vbr or with virtualdub using either picvideo or divx codec(93% quality, max keyframe interval 10) at 720x576, again without compressed audio.
In short, have never had problem capturing as long as i did not try to compress audio.
If capture is going normal, virtualdub will not show processor usage more than about 40 %. 70% will drop frames like mad.

[dinkob]

B.T.W if you just want to play with HT, Turning Hyperthreading off (I had the problem with it) from BIOS won't do the job. You would I think either have to do full recover of OS or use UPONLY switch in boot.ini (haven't tried that, I just reinstalled OS).

I don't know what else to check out. I worked on my problem for about a month. (it would freeze randomly after 1 hour capture)

[gvds]

It's "possible" to capture without frameloss with virtualdub and the huffyuv codec.
But... now I have an audio-video synchronisation problem! And the AVI-file is really big (uncompresssed)

Now, let me understand this: my system is running like hell. It's really boosting speed. Every application I start runs very very fast.
It's hard to believe that my hardware system with a P4 2.8 and 1 GB RAM is not enough to perfom some capturing. And last but not least almost every hardwarepiece is already replaced.
I think that the problem is soft-related; just 1 major question: how can I determine the exact problem and much more how to solve it...?( Bios-settings, codecs,...?)

Disable the HT doesn't help.

P.S.: Small mistake of me: processor % = 25% during capturing.

[gadgetguy]

I guess you're right. It's unsolvable.

You have been given many possible courses of action, not the least of which is to read the Sticky on this subject. If you have read the sticky then either you didn't understand what was suggested there, or you rejected it's advice like you seem to be rejecting the advice of those that have responded. When asked if your drive cable was 80 conductor, you responded with, "that's been replaced, it can't be that", but didn't answer the question. Unless you are willing to try suggestions, or ask questions about suggestions you don't understand, then there is not much that can be done to help you with your problem.

[gvds]

Dear Gadgetguy,

I don't like your accusations.
You are very wrong, in 2 ways: you have to drop posts somewhere else ( in a political forum or...) and I am willing and well prepared to accept any valuable advice.
But I don't think that I have to follow tips which were already performed in the past. During this topic I've tried almost each advice where possible.
Indeed, the Sticky is very valuable but I think that not every problem can be found by a 'checklist'. Some soft-problems need some "customization". Otherwise it would be very easy and a forum wouldn't be necessary...

If you can't add really some 'added value' to my question I believe it's better that you keep quiet.

[TaoTeWingChun]

OK gang, let's let calmer heads prevail here . . .

Gadgetguy was simply making some valid observations, albeit with tongue firmly planted in cheek. I'm certain that no malice was intended, and if you go through the forums extesively you will see that chiding from time to time is harmless, as long as the initial question gets answered.

Now, as to your new queries, yes, the HUFFYUV codec is a lossless non-compression codec, so your captures will be relatively LARGE. Think 13Gigs/hour here, ok?

And yes, audio synch is usually always a problem, unless you're using a TBC or the Canopus ADVC-100 which has video/audio lock (the audio & video channels are locked in synch).

Also, be sure to read Nelson's suggestions carefully. Believe me, you will not regret going through the suggestions with a fine toothed comb.

Please post back (in a calmer demeanor, ok?) so we can continue to assist you.

It may be very likely that there's a setting in your capture software that is not set properly, but let's take it a small step at a time. . .

Cheers!

TTWC

[lordsmurf]

I don't think you read the sticky.
Stop with the the "I think" and "I believe" stuff.
At least 2-3 people have said to read it.

Given all you have said, it sounds like dirty source.
Get better wires. Or a TBC may be in your future.

[gadgetguy]

Indeed, no malice was intended. It was just that reading through the thread it appeared that you were rejecting advice without due consideration. As TaoTeWingChun indicated, my comments were a tongue in cheek response to get you to stop and examine closely the help that was being offered.

BTW, 13gig per hour is for DV-AVI, I believe HuffyUV files are even larger.

[gvds]

Allright. Below you can find some extra feedback. I hope this meets the expectations:

- The frame drops comes continuously.
- The capture drive is put on the second channel (boot drive is on first channel)
- With al other drives (DVD+ Writer) disconnected the problem remains.
- If audio is eliminated the problem remains with or without the drives.
- Changing the capture resolution does not help.
- If I close all other applications ( with Enditall) the problem remains.
- Unplugging the LAN does not solve the problem
- Changing the resolution of my screen doesn’t help. (ATI radeon X800)
- My soundcard is a creative Audigy 2 ZS

[lordsmurf]

Again...

Given all you have said, it sounds like dirty source.
Get better wires. Or a TBC may be in your future.

[gvds]

I don't understand. What do you mean by tbc?

[TaoTeWingChun]

TBC = Time Based Corrector

By the way, exactly what is your capture source, exactly?

[vhelp]

Here is an easy indictor of your frame drop problems ...

Pull out the following from your system, completely out:

** Creative Audigy 2 ZS soundcard
** 1 ASUS DVD writer
** 1 ASUS DVD reader

Then, re-try your capturing scenarios. Run various tests
with difference sources.. ie, vhs; cable/satellite; etc.

If you find zero frame drops, you have narrowed it down to
two things.. either your DVD writer/reader or sound card

-vhelp 3568

[thecoalman]

TBC = Time Based Corrector

By the way, exactly what is your capture source, exactly?

That's kind of what has me baffled. He mentions above that it's present on captures direct from TV which would eliminate the source. TBC isn't going to help then.

Perhaps you should try some different cables as LS suggested, maybe your getting some interference. Better cables are shielded better to avoid this.

Do you have access to a digital cam? You could try transferring some footage from that via firewire just to see if you can. DV transfers are relatively low resource intensive, I've even surfed the net and have done other minor tasks while transferring DV.

Have you tried capturing with preview off?

Last but not least do you have the latest drivers and updates for your devices and software? Does the ASus card come with it's capture software or PVR? Go to their site and download the latest drivers and capture software they provide if you haven't already done so.

[jtoolman2000]

Having re read your original post on the top of this page, I noticed that not once did you mention what it was you were intending to do with this captured footage. I can only assume you were thinking of creating a DVD from your captured video file.

Now, unlike DV to HD captures which are simply direct transfers of the digital data in the mini dv tape, analog captures, as was mentioned before is the MOST stressfull process you can put a computer through. Think or it, 30 or so full frames of analog video and audio data per second needing to be transformed to digital data ( AVI or MPG in most cases ) without neglecting a single frame. Remember the I love Lucy episode where she was working the candy assembly line and could barely keep up when it when it was running slow, but as soon as it was sped up to normal speed she kept missing about 40-50% of the candys? Same thing happens during analog capture. It is almost impossible not to drop frames. If it encounters a frame and it is taking a bit longer than 1/30 of a second to be encoded it simply "drops" it and just goes on to the next one and the next one and so on.

Now you have replaced about every suspected component you could think of at probably quite a bit of $$$ and still you cannot seem to solve the problem. Did you ever consider purchasing a stand alone dvd recorder? They are relatively cheap and some are actually outstanding. One of the Admins pu blished a fine list of just about ALL the recorders out there. Pop your tape into the old VCR or the Cam, connect it to the rocorder hit play and hit record on the recorder and that's it! In fact, later if you feel like it you can even load that DVD onto TDA and re do it with a diferent menu. I do it ALL the time for my old stuff and works perfectly. No FRAMES are EVER dropped.

The unit cost me less than $250. ( Liteon )

No headaches at all!

[tHRASHPiG]

Does your VCR have an "Image Stabiliser" function ? If so , try disabling it .
My JVC VCR has this option and if I forget to to turn it off before capturing it sends my capture card nuts !

[dphirschler]

With my old computer I had frame drop problems. I believe the bus speed or the VIA chipset was at fault. I was able to capture at 640x480 @ ~30 fps without framedrops IF I used picvideo mjpeg at 18. The processor was only using about 20-30% while capturing, but the data was not being transferred to HD fast enough.

My new computer (with 800mhz bus and pentium chipset) captures flawlessly at 720x480 @ ~30 fps with no compression. And that is on either the main boot HD or the second HD.

But with the old computer, it was a challenge. Things that made a difference were:

1) capturing at smaller resolutions. You might even try capturing just one field instead of both (ie 240 lines instead of 480).

2) screen color depth to 16 bit.

3) second HD on separate IDE (of course using the 80 wire cables). Make sure it is at least 7200 rpm.

4) Try capturing with different color settings. For instance, instead of 24 bit RGB, try YUY2.

5) Try compression. Picvideo mjpeg worked well for me.

6) Make sure compression color setting matches your capture color setting. Set both to YUY2 for instance.

7) try capturing blind.


Good luck! Please report back your progress.


Darryl