Unsolvable problem: heavy frame loss- who can help me?

[gerryc]

Make sure your capture drive is set for DMA, direct memory access.

[gvds]

. Did you ever consider purchasing a stand alone dvd recorder?

It's my goal to convert some analog home video(VHS) tapes into a MPEG2 file in order to edit this stuff with Pinnacle Studio 9. After editing I would like to create a DVD of course.
So I don't get trough the capture part.

I've tried allready to pull my soundcard and DVD-reader+writer out of the system, unfortunately without any result.

My capture source is mainly a VCR. But like I've said before I tried also from another source (Cable TV) and with different cables.

The latest drivers are installed of all devices.

Small question: Is it possible to get an MPEG-2 output on a DVD-recorder ? I have to edit it. DVD-format is not good enough.
In case of capturing the source on a DVD-writer in Mpeg-2 how can I put this on my PC in order to edit this? So in this case, if I understand well I need a DVD-recorder with a disc burner inside?

[TaoTeWingChun]

So why not capture to uncompressed AVI first, then from there render into DVD compliant audio/video?

MPEG-2 on the fly direct from your analog source is likely killing your captures to begin with. Capture to AVI using HuffyUV filter and capture into an uncompressed AVI. Then do the editing on that AVI file that you need to. Once that's done, render that AVI file into MPEG-2/DVD compliant file and burn it to DVD with your favorite authoring sftware.

Click. Done.

Cheers!

TTWC

[gvds]

So why not capture to uncompressed AVI first, then from there render into DVD compliant audio/video?

Not a bad idea. Nevertheless I see 2 problems: The first and most important problem: If I capture AVI without compression I get audio-video desync after +/- 15 secs.
And 1 minute capturing gives +/- 1 Gig. I don't think that Pinnacle Studio 9 is capable to handle that.

[harley2ride]

I feel your pain, but I've never had the problem. I'm capturing via a cheap vhs, using RCA Composit cables which are cheap, through and ADS PYRO AV/Link, and even with my old home made videos, the only frames that drop, are from when the recording starts and stops at various points, and I'm only losing the truely bad frames. Usually only lose 3 or 4 frames. With movie vhs tapes, I have no frame drop. I've used this setup on my 2.8ghz p4, and on my two newer systems. Maybe it's your card setup. Try moving your capture card to a different slot if you have another one free. I've also captured through my ADS internal firewire card with no problems. Hope you get it figured out.

[TaoTeWingChun]

Why not try some other application for the capturing, then? It seems you are set on using Pinnacle Studio 9 to do the capture - have you tried anything else? If so, what are the other programs you have used?

Please let us know so we can narrow the field down some more...

Cheers!

TTWC

[gvds]

My used capture programs are:

PowerVCR
VitualDub
Pinnacle Studio 9
All Ulead soft


They have more or less all the same problems: frame loss or audio/video desync.

[lordsmurf]

It may just be a bad card.

[zoobie]

Defragging once a week? I have to defragg several times a day with XP Pro.

I agree with the others...sounds like your source tapes are goofed...especially if they are cheapos to begin with.

edit: or a bad card like mr smurf mentioned

I've bought the very best tape available and it still has hiccups frequently in the same place.

Sorry to say it looks like you spent a lot of $ for nothing.

PS - You may want to take it to a studio to see what they can do with it.

[anitract]

Defrag several times a day? How do you have time to do anything else?

[zoobie]

I do it when on break, showering, eating, etc...If I stay on top of it, I only have a few huge red bars to deal with and takes around 20 minutes. Guess it depends on what I'm doing...

[anitract]

lol I suppose. Not to get off topic...but...all the XP and XP-pro computers I work on defrag at the most 1 time a month with no adverse effects in performance. I wonder, since you say that you need to do this daily, if a system reinstall is in order? You really shouldn't need to continuously defrag.

[gvds]

I gues my problem will remain indeed unsolvable.
Nevertheless I would like to thank everybody who posted tips in order to help me.

[Nelson37]

Problem is definitely solveable. PC problems require a systematic approach.

Most common cause of Framedrops during capture is issues with hard drive throughput and/or other task interruption. If you can capture an uncompressed or Huffy AVI file without dropping frames, then this is not your problem.

OK, so what is different between the situation where the problem occurs and the situation where it does not? Capture codec and software. The problem is in here somewhere. Try a different capture prog to MPG, try MPG1 and MPG2, also Divx or others.

Note - you can cap AVI with no frame loss, but you get audio de-synch.
This is an easier problem to solve than the frame drops.
MPG captures are in synch (I am assuming this), but have frame drops.
Are you absolutely certain you have captured MPG with no audio, preferably with the sound card removed, and onboard audio disabled?
And that you still drop frames, with NO AUDIO HARDWARE present?

This is very important as quite often there is a problem with the clock on the sound card, frames may be dropped to compensate on the MPG cap, while AVI cap gets all video frames but is loosing audio synch.

If you drop frames on MPG cap with no audio hardware, then the issue is most likely with the codec or capture software. Try also lowering the bitrate significantly, or lowering resolution. Also try other progs and codecs as suggested.

[Nelson37]

Forget to mention it is essential that you remove the VCR from the equation while testing solutions. Cap from a cable or satellite source ONLY for troubleshooting purposes. VCR source is too problematic and variable, and also can be the source of both framedrop and audio de-synch issues.

Would recommend unplug the LAN cable and LEAVE IT UNPLUGGED. Could be the source of interruption.

You say you tested this, but for how long? And are you Absolutely Certain that it does not Add to the problem, while not being the main source? Such that you could stumble on to the main problem, then not realize it because the LAN interruptions also cause framedrops, thereby masking the fact that the other source of problem has been eliminated?

Minimize the Variables.

[Nelson37]

Also, why are you not using the MMC capture software? Did this not come with the card?

[gvds]

Capture codec and software. The problem is in here somewhere. Try a different capture prog to MPG, try MPG1 and MPG2, also Divx or others.

I've tried already many different software. ( see my earlier posts)
But I'm still waiting a bit for someone who can give me a great tip. I mean what (best) software do I have to try? Which codec ? I've used already different codecs with the results described also in my previous posts. I would like to receive a "golden" advice. I've tried a lot but unfortunately all with a bad result.
Do you understand what I mean?

[gadgetguy]

You said that you have two hardware means of capture . An ASUS and an ATI. Are both of these devices installed? or did you try them one at a time? and have you tried moving these cards to different slots?

[smearbrick1]

. Did you ever consider purchasing a stand alone dvd recorder?

Small question: Is it possible to get an MPEG-2 output on a DVD-recorder ? I have to edit it. DVD-format is not good enough.
In case of capturing the source on a DVD-writer in Mpeg-2 how can I put this on my PC in order to edit this? So in this case, if I understand well I need a DVD-recorder with a disc burner inside?

You realize that DVD format is MPEG-2 right? If you used a DVD recorder, you could simply capture the VHS source onto the DVD recorder and edit the resulting DVD (Disc) on your PC.

[gvds]

You said that you have two hardware means of capture . An ASUS and an ATI. Are both of these devices installed? or did you try them one at a time? and have you tried moving these cards to different slots?

I tried the cards one at a time.
I tried the ASUS card in different slots. Same problem.

[Nelson37]

No, I do not understand.

I have read the previous posts, where you identified different capture softwares tried. You did NOT identify the codecs used in each program. Also, at no time have you identified the bitrate, both audio and video, specified for capture. This information is necessary.

You also have not answered my specific questions.

Understand that I solve PC problems for a living. If you must know, I am pretty darn good at it.

With specific, precise answers to questions I will GUARANTEE that your problem can be identified and solved. There must be a willingness to perform systematic, precise changes as instructed, ONE AT A TIME.
Note that customers who pay me get to whine, bitch, and complain. Those who don't, don't. Your option.

I will now tell you about a previous poster with a similar problem to whom it was suggested (by another member) that his MOBO raid controller might be the issue. He went on at great length how wonderful his raid was, and how much it helped in other areas. After 2 or 3 pages of discussion, he finally divulged the information that the raid array had been recently installed, he had no problems previous to this, and his problems BEGAN when he installed the array. This is typical, and is frustrating enough when I am charging by the hour, when I am helping for free I simply stop.

I will try one more time.

1. Why are you not using MMC? The capture progs you listed are not generally regarded as the best available, and certainly not for an ATI card.

2. What other codecs have you tested, besides Huffy AVI (which did not drop frames but had audio synch problems) and MPEG2 (which had no audio synch problems but did drop frames)? What results?

3. Have you tried the Synch to Audio check in VDUB, testing both ways?
What results?

4. Did you capture MPG and AVI with the soundcard physically removed from the system, and was the onboard audio also disabled? What results? Note that your stating you did this, and still had problems, is not sufficient. WHAT PROBLEM, there are at least 2 seperate and distinct issues you have experienced, at different times.

5. What bitrates (Video AND Audio) for MPG capture have you used, have you lowered them dramatically and tested?

6. By what mechanism are you determining the amount of frame droppage for each capture type? Be specific.

7. By what mechanism are you determining that audio synch is lost? Be specific, many programs will give incorrect indications of audio synch.

The sound card checks are particularly important as your symptoms would appear to fit the case of an audio card clock not in synch with the system clock. An MPG capture in such a case will usually drop frames to maintain synch, while a less tightly interleaved AVI capture will simply allow the audio to drift out of synch with the video. Sound familiar?

Turning off the audio portion of the capture may, or may not, be sufficient to test this, depending on the software. Physically removing the sound card, AND disabling motherboard audio, AND turning off audio capture, should be sufficient although the possibility exists that the BIOS switch does not fully disable the onboard audio and/or the software may still reference the on-board clock. Trying at least 3 different capture progs should eliminate this possibility.

Answers to ALL questions are required. I want ONLY definite, KNOWN answers. It the answer is not certain, or just opinion, then redo the test as described or clearly state your unwillingness to solve the problem.

[gvds]

With specific, precise answers to questions I will GUARANTEE that your problem can be identified and solved. .

I'm glad that you want to help me.
I've tried to answer all questions as completely as possible. It's not always easy to answer some questions wich are posted from different users with different courses through each other.
I will try to answer your questions as completely as I can. If it's not satisfying again then I will conclude that we have an incompatible communication gateway...
I hope it works.

Codecs used:
- Pinnacle studio 9: unknown -Mpeg-DVD quality( delivered with program...?) - how to figure this out?
- Ulead DVD : MPEG( delivered with program...?) + AVI+ HUFFYUV
- Virtualdub: Mpeg + AVI+ HUFFYUV
- PowerVCR: unknown

Used bitrate: 8000 kbps

1. I suppose you mean the included capture-software of the supplier? There was no capturesoftware included in the ASUS package. And also none in the ATI. Does it exist? I didn't found it.

2. It's possible that I have tested some other codecs without kowing it. I'm just a beginner in this stuff, don't forget...

3. I haven't done this yet. I will do this as soon as possible.

4. I've captured MPG and AVI with the soundcard physically removed from the system and the onboard audio was indeed disabled. In the MPG-case I have major frame-loss. And the sync-problem pops up if I capture in AVI. So exactly the same result.

5. If I use a lower bitrate I have no fram-loss problem and no sync-problem. But on that stage the quality of the resulting video is very poor. ( bitrate unkown)
Too poor for me anyway.

6. In Pinnacle Studio the number of dropped frames are shown, the amount of dropped frames is enormously. With the other packages, I use my eyes! Sometimes the video almost freezes completely.

7. Again: my ears. It's really clear that the audio is heard +/- 1,5 secs before the associated videoframes.

[gvds]

[quote="Nelson37"]
3. Have you tried the Synch to Audio check in VDUB, testing both ways?
What results?
quote]

I don't understand. Where can I find this setting? What do you mean by "bothways"?

[somebodeez]

[quote="gvds"]

3. Have you tried the Synch to Audio check in VDUB, testing both ways?
What results?
quote]

I don't understand. Where can I find this setting? What do you mean by "bothways"?

In Vdubmod, it's under "Options".
I think Nelson37 may have meant have you tried it with it unchecked and then again with it checked and what results do you get.

[gll99]

Please don't get upset if you feel you have already dealt with this but it's not clear and very important

I don't see where you answered the first 2 questions properly yet when they were asked earlier. You said you changed the ide ribbons and I know you feel you are covering old ground but unless you answer these first the rest may be all a waste of time.

1) Are you using 80 wire udma ide ribbons or 40 wire ide ribbons on both ide controllers? 40 wire connectors will force the slower pio mode setting on the controllers.
2) Have you checked to make sure that dma is on?
3) What does the system device manager say that they are set to?

Can you answer the previous questions fully before moving on?

Also (3 & 4) less likely but worth checking:

3) Did you look to see if any other tasks are running in the background before you capture?
4) Resident programs and Virus checkers etc.. should be disabled if you are having problems. You never know when they will kick in. I leave mine running because I have yet to face your issues with a p4 1.6 and an old avermedia bt878 capture card.

Good suggestion for you next:

5) For avi capture, use a wdm designed capture app like virtualvcr (freeware) and a divx/xvid codec to test. It is possible to capture well using virtualdub but it was not designed for nt based windows like xp, so there are known issues with using wdm drivers in virtualdub.

Using virtualvcr and viewing the built in stats screen, I can capture 720x480, 29.97 fps, divx set to 2200 Kbs and mp3 audio compression and still have a couple of other tasks running but have no dropped frames. With your gear you should do no less.

When the preceeding have been done and all else fails, but not before, then I would suspect a driver conflict:

6) Someone already mentionned the btwincap drivers. I don't know your capture card but if it is bt878/bt879 then good results have been reported by those who switched to those wdm drivers instead of the ones supplied with their card.

btw)
You can't see dropped frames by watching the preview window. Priority is given to the capture and the screen update can lag but major lockup usually means a bottleneck somewhere.

[lordsmurf]

Talking about the 80/40pin IDE cables, make sure they're good. I've even bought new ones that were screwed up. Try another one.

[Nelson37]

Excellent!!!

Several issues, some answers already. My experience is primarily with ATI cards, most of these issues are similar with all capture products, but I will be writing specifically about ATI.

How did you capture MPG with VDUB? This is not impossible, but the typical newbie would not know how to do this.

The capture progs, with the exception of Vdub, are not very good. Virtual VCR seems OK, not sure why you did not get the ATI MMC software, though I am not familiar with your particular card. Try ATI website for compatible version, this software uses specific hardware features of ATI cards and should work best.

For those harping on the cable - AVI cap does NOT drop frames, HD throughput is not the issue. Translation - AVI is the largest, most hard drive intensive way to capture, if the hard drive is capable of absorbing this without dropping frames, the problem lies elsewhere.

4. How did you verify an AVI capture has synch issues when no audio was captured??? Perfect illustration of the importance of clarity.

6 and 7 - Many playback programs will not properly playback captured files, freezing of video and de-synch of audio are COMMON playback problems, these observed conditions may, or may not, indicate a problem in the file. Huffy, for instance, is designed for efficient, hi-speed capture. NOT, repeat NOT, playback. There may actually be no problem at all, at least in many files. See if you can obtain a valid MPG and AVI file to test if playback is correct. For AVI, VDUB often gives accurate playback results. WinDVD for MPG, this may vary on your system. I would say at least half of the dozen or more playback progs I have will show similar problems on files which ultimately play fine on the DVD player.

Bitrate and 5 - BINGO!!!!!!!!
First step in solving a PC problem is find a way to reliably re-create it.
Second step is to find a way, any way, to eliminate the problem. IT DOES NOT MATTER IF THE SOLUTION IS NOT DESIRABLE. Once you have a way to eliminate the problem, you now work to achieve the middle ground between the totally unacceptable and the merely less than optimum.

A bitrate of 8000, particularly if your audio is in WAV format, may well exceed DVD maximums, causing jerky playback which would look very similar to frame drops. Note here that only rarely do you have direct evidence of dropped frames, the rest of the time you have only a visual observation of a condition which appears similar.

Now - more information needed. You state that you drop the bitrate, framedrops go away. TO WHAT RATE DID YOU REDUCE IT?????????
Also, what is the audio capture type and bitrate?????????????

Many progs do not allow direct setting of the bitrate. You may just have good, better, best. If so, chuck that program immediately and get something else. Waste no more time with that software.

Try 7500, 7000, 6500, etc. At this point my strong suspicion is that your only problem is crappy capture software and too high a bitrate.

Also, you need a better understanding of the playback and other issues you may encounter. Suggest try playback using VdubMod for AVI and MPG, if necessary isolate suspect areas and step thru frame-by frame, true drops should be obvious and mere stutters in playback will be eliminated.

Once we get this resolved, next we talk about the padding stream and other fun things to deal with, that are specific to captured files.

To answer the "synch audio to video" question, there a check for this option that is either ON or OFF. To try it both ways would be to test capture with the switch set ON, and a seperate test with the switch OFF.

[smearbrick1]

Are you doing anything else during capturing in question (surfing, ripping, burning, listening to music, running weatherbug, running the SETI program, compiling a computer program, etc)?

[Nelson37]

I would like to point out that I have asked the OP to specify the audio bitrate on AT LEAST THREE SEPERATE OCCASSIONS, and am still waiting for an answer.

With the specified video bitrate now identified as a probable source of the problem, the audio bitrate and/or type now becomes critically important. SFAIK, Pinnacle captures in PCM audio. This coupled with the high bitrate could well be the problem.

A next step would be to use some DVD-RW disks to do test burns to check these in a standalone DVD player.

From the description of your testing methodology, I believe it is quite possible that you do not actually have any real file-related problem at all, merely less-than-perfect playback software.

Have you tested DVD playback and/or MPG files which are KNOWN to be valid, on the PC, to see if they have playback issues? Note that captured files are DIFFERENT, and have their own specific problems not normally found in standard MPG files. Also you should try running your MPG file thru the TMPGENC utility Merge and Cut and test the output file.

Now when I say test playback I do not mean play it in one program and see what happens. Use AT LEAST three, five or more would be better.
When you give results, make sure and name the programs, complete with version number.

[gvds]

I have some good news: with Virtual VCR it seems to be possible to capture in pure AVI ( without any compression.)
But the file is very large! +/- 1,2 Gigs for 1 minute video.
What tool do I use best to convert this big AVI-file into MPG ? Attention: Pinnacle Studio doesn’t import any Mpeg…
So I prefer to be able to capture ‘with’ compression.

In order to answer your questions:

I didn’t capture MPG in VDUB.

At my knowledge there exists no ATI capture software from ATI. Cyberlink Powerproducer was included in the box.

”How did you verify an AVI capture has synch issues when no audio was captured??? Perfect illustration of the importance of clarity”
I can’t answer this clearly. When I said I have sync problems this simple means that I can hear the sound of the movie before the right frames are visible…

6 and 7 – “playback programs”
(bad-frame dropped)- Captured video’s are having the same problems on a standalone DVD-player.

Bitrate and 5 - BINGO!!!!!!!!

”Now - more information needed. You state that you drop the bitrate, framedrops go away. TO WHAT RATE DID YOU REDUCE IT?????????
Also, what is the audio capture type and bitrate????????????? “

Sorry, my mistake: framedrops are staying, also if I decrease the bitrate.

Try 7500, 7000, 6500, etc. At this point my strong suspicion is that your only problem is crappy capture software and too high a bitrate.

"synch audio to video"

Sorry, can’t find such a setting.

- audio bitrate

VDUB: I really don’t know where I can find this setting?
ULead DVD moviefactory: 384 Kbps ( impossible to change this)

“running your MPG file thru the TMPGENC utility Merge and Cut”
What do you mean by “merge and cut” ? What do I have to merge …?

I hope this stuff gives you some extra troubleshoot-information.