Justify capture card route vs. standalone unit

[anitract]

Ok, here's the deal: as many of you have probably read in 2 recent threads, I am going to transfer 50-some home-videos from VHS tapes to DVD. I have tapes ranging from 1st gen to 2nd/3rd gens of probably varying quality. Also, quite a few are OLD (upwards of 15-20 yrs old).

Thanks to everyones help here I have basically finished selecting hardware to do my project on my PC. Unfortunately, NOW my family (who is subsequently partly funding the project) want me to explore the other (cheaper) route of a standalone recorder. *sigh*

Basically, they want me to justify spending $140 for an AIW card, $280 for a TBC-1000, and $200+ on a high quality VCR when I could get a standalone unit for quite a bit cheaper.

CAN I even justify this?

My line of thinking is that because the stated sources are so old and possibly "bad quality", I need to use a PC and the stated hardware to get the best possible transfer. Is this correct? If so, how to explain this to my family in a convincing manner?

Any input, as usual, is much appreciated. I am getting very anxious to get this project started, and this inquery of my family's is annoying me.

[Soopafresh]

Advantages and disadvantages on both sides. One thing for sure, the single standalone unit will do the job. It actually looks pretty darned good, as long as your source material is good. It comes down to simplicity vs versatility. For 50 tapes, I'd side with simplicity.

[anitract]

Well, like I said....*points to first paragraph referring to source material* :P

[Soopafresh]

In that case,the only thing you REALLY need is something like a

http://www.canopus.com/US/products/advc-100/pm_advc-100.asp


and do the image correcting with software.

The TBC, the HiQ VCR, are nice, but pehaps a bit of overkill.

[thecoalman]

The major issue between a recoder and doing it via PC is flexibility. Recorders convert directly to mpeg where with a card such as a AIW you have many choices specifically the choice to capture in AVI.

AVI is much better for editing than mpeg.

[thecoalman]

and do the image correcting with software.

The TBC, the HiQ VCR, are nice, but pehaps a bit of overkill.

Some things just can't be fixed with software.....

[rsgars]

Are you planning to do any editing, add titles, music, color correction? If you are then you have to go the PC route. If not then it seems the direct route will be much easier.

Of course, if you are planning to restore/enhance the family videos it seems a small price that they would be funding your harware considering the amount of time you may spend editing, enhancing, correcting, encoding and burning.

[anitract]

Yes, well, mainly I need to know if standalone units can deal with old tapes / bad source like I have in a manner equal to a capture card. If they can, great, then I need to consider them as a more practical method. Otherwise, I will go the PC route.

[racerxnet]

Don't forget that the ATI result can lead to video/audio sync issues. The Canopus ADVC 100 will eliminate this issue and provide the capability to edit the AVI file.

MAK

[anitract]

Right. I decided the aiw / tbc-1000 was what I wanted to do if I go the pc route. I'm not going to do many edits aside from the possible menus or what-not, so the huge file size and having to "reencode" the DV canceled that option for me.

Info that would be most valuable to me at this point is how standalone units handle older sources vs. how an aiw w/ tbc and good vcr would.

[thecoalman]

Info that would be most valuable to me at this point is how standalone units handle older sources vs. how an aiw w/ tbc and good vcr would.

Both benefit when your using a good VCR and TBC, once the video gets to either the capture card or the standalone it's going to record whatever it is... The best thing is to have the best possible source you can, it's the old garbage in garbage out....If you have a junk VCR doesn't matter how well the recoder handles the video as it's already degraded.

[Soopafresh]

Coalman, I agree that "some things can't be fixed with software". I'm just trying to make things less costly for the guy so he can maintain good relationships with his loved ones

[rsgars]

Info that would be most valuable to me at this point is how standalone units handle older sources vs. how an aiw w/ tbc and good vcr would.

I think part of the problem here is that the equipment is so new no one can answer that definitively. When you get into the dvd realm it seems to me that some trial and error is involved no matter what method you use. Just look at the media rating area of this site and you'll see what I mean.

[Ben_NV]

I suggest buying a Sony video camera with passthrough. It will allow you to (first, it costs about $450, new), it will allow you to connect from a VCR to a USB or maybe it's a firewire in to your PC. The captures are great and if you don't like it, it's easy to return.

Another advantage is that you'll have a great camera when you are done which will play both Hi-8 from any camera and its own digital.

Also, in theory, as I have not done it yet, you should be able to make digital copies when you transfer to PC. This will allow you to keep the huge files in digital 8 format, do your editing in low-res in some programs, Media Studio Pro, for one, and then compile your edits from the high res tape copy to a Hi-res final cut.

This is the setup I use and have never had a problem with going from VCR to PC or taping live TV or from Tivo through the Sony pass-through Video camera. The model is TRV350 and it is USB2, not firewire.

One drawback is that it will not remove macrovision from commercial tapes played through VCR as Canopus does, from what I've read. But I rent DVDs now and copy as I've learned on this site, Bless vidhelp.com.

Good luck.

[TheFamilyMan]

Consider this strategy. If you already have a vcr, buy a decent standalone DVD recorder and see how it works for you. If you get the results you want, you're done. (Buy one from a place that has a friendly return policy...get the idea?) The next thing would be to upgrade the vcr. The JVC s-vhs models with the TBC/noise reduction electronics should take care of "old tape" problems (it has for me), so buying a TBC may not be necessary. If the results with the new vcr still leaves you wanting, the sky becomes the limit....

Of course, you may discover that using a standalone is too limiting in its abilities or doesn't produce the quality you want using a good quality source, then...back to the capture card solution. At least now you can use the standalone to record TV programs and watch movies...or return it!

50 tapes is a LOT to process. Using the standalone could make the conversion go a lot faster. Good Luck on your decision.

[edDV]

Here is yet another step by step strategy

1. Buy a quality stanalone VHS/DVD Recorder. A model with a hard disk will give more editing flexibility.

2. Transfer your tapes to DVDR with "light editing"

3. Evaluate what you have. If some important "family videos" aren't acceptable quality do the following:

4a. Invest in a better VHS player and/or TBC.

4b. Get those few special tapes transfered to MPeg2 at a quality dub house/service bureau that will be using top end Framesync/TBCs if you specify the project correctly.

[hsugawar]

With a standalone DVD recorder, you can still edit the "master" files on the created DVDs to produce "production" files, and this should be generally still a lot simpler than fiddling with a PC with capturing card moving back and forth to you VCR/TV location or vise versa. I have been doing this for converting my 50+ VHS tapes to DVD.

A VCR+DVD recorder combo may result batter as there's no inter-box connections that may degrade signal quality. (VHS's Y-C signals are digitized directly in their best method rather than converted to CVBS or SVideo and reconverted for digitizing...

hiro

[anitract]

"HS's Y-C signals are digitized directly in their best method ... "- hsugawar

Is this a definite fact? I'm not sure if it would offset the gain of using a better VCR than the VCR included into combo drive.

[jobedo1]

(Basically, they want me to justify spending $140 for an AIW card, $280 for a TBC-1000, and $200+ on a high quality VCR when I could get a standalone unit for quite a bit cheaper. )
I use the Panasonic E-75 (VCR-DVD RECORDER)cost about 275$and get great results,there are many others brands to choose from.
Jo

[racerxnet]

I use the Panasonic E-75 (VCR-DVD RECORDER)cost about 275$and get great results,there are many others brands to choose from.
Jo

And when you want to do any pre or post filtering for poor color balance you can do none. What do you do when you are restoring old priceless source material?

The ATI will false flag poor source material as macrovision, so now you need to add the TBC as an add on cost to the overall solution. So ya blow your wad on more items than needed for a beginner in this hobby.

MAK

[Leoslocks]

Comparing Apples to Oranges with an inexpensive DVDR/VCR to ($275) to a PC capture ($620) solution will give you one choice from the economics side and another from the finished results side. Perhaps something like this JVC SR-MV30U DVDR/sVhs recorder may be a better comparison/choice.
($699.95)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=326857&is=REG

Considering the results are going to be priceless, take your time and choose wisely.

I agonized over learning to capture 10+ year old sVhs tapes on a Via chipset. It took me 6 months just to figure out how to capture. As I figured out the WDM file to use with a Ti4200 video card, the sVhs player broke down. A cheap JVC HR 2902 player doesn't allow me to capture some of the poor tapes I have.
I recently bought a WinTV PVR 150 ($70) and it captures quite well from decent tapes to MPG2. I have not yet to try and capture the old tapes as the vcr minus a TBC is the issue.

Give me a week or two and I can qualify the JVC SR-MV30U. It should be here by the weekend.

An example of a capture from the JVC 2902 to the PVR 150. This same spot on the tape would produce a horizontal blue line through 2/3rds of the screen while capturing with the Ti4200 (Virtual Dub to AVI).

Captured with PVR 150 from JVC 2902 via svideo/composite audio


SR-MV30 authored DVD (XP-10Mbps)


Captured with PVR 150 from JVC 2902 via svideo/composite audio


SR-MV30 authored DVD (XP-10Mbps)


The second image were captured from the Authored DVD from a JVC SR-MV30.

[Leoslocks]

anitract
The tape the above images were taken from is 14 years old. There was very little hope of getting the audio synced. Capturing to AVI was dificult as well.
The second set of images were from the JVC SR-MV30.
XP setting (10Mbps)
Manual Dubbing (From VCR to DVD) Note, if one touch recording to DVD -R is available, I can't find it.
Digital TBC/NR On
No Menus are created, only chapters where the recording scession is Started/Stopped.
The Picture is quite nice compared to my attempts to Capture/Edit/Author from the same tape.

If you are in the States and are willing to risk one of the old tapes, send me one and I will run it through this machine. PM for details.

[anitract]

Leoslocks, great comparison. Looks like the JVC SR-MV30 is a nice unit for even older tapes. I will look into it a little more...and thanks for offering to look at a tape of mine, I doubt I will take you up on it just yet though!

[thecoalman]

Wish I had a comaprison but here's a screencap from consumer grade JVC using S-video>tbc-1000>advc 110. The thing to note that this is from a 2 hour file with 0 dropped frames and 0 audio sync issues. Also note that this was impossible to capture with an ATI AIW or a Nvidia Based VIVO card.... www.nepadigital.com/mv I could capture this tape without the TBC if I needed to with the ADVC.

[Leoslocks]

I doubt I will take you up on it just yet though!

Not a problem, the invitation is open. I know how valuable these old tapes of mine are. I would not trust FedEx, UPS or the Postal Service with them. this machine does a real nice job but is quite pricy.

Coalman, I have been searching for a quality sVhs vcr, a TBC, but not a capture card until I improve this computer (Soyo Kt333). My JVC 2902 may not be such a bad vcr but the MV30 is a jewel.
The first picture in the comparison was captured with a WinTv PVR150. The same shot captured with the JVC 2902 > Ti4200 was nothing more than no signal or a large horizontal blue line. Your 15 year old shot looks great.

Besides, I still hope to get a camera like yours this summer.

[thecoalman]

@ Leslocks

one word.....VISA

[SHS]

Leslocks all thoses screenshot can list which top of image capture done by what device.

[Leoslocks]

Edited to include capture info.

one word.....VISA

It may take two words for me, Master Card.

[SHS]

I see and why it dose much so better the PVR-150 becuases the SR-MV30U has all this build in.
Time Base Corrector
3R Picture (Digital or Analog)
3D Digital Y/C Separation, 3D YNR, 3D CNR, and 3D S-Color
And few other thing which are good features to have.

[sandrewww]

The MV30U certainly seems like an attractive piece of hardware -- can anyone think of a reason NOT to get a standalone unit such as the SR-MV30U?

From the screenshots, the results look amazing. Also, the fact that you can capture from it through firewire seems that it will have all the functionality of a capture card.

Is there any reason to pick a capture card over a device like this, or is cost the only hit against the MV30U?

One problem I've had before when trying to capture VHS (10-25y/o tapes) is that when using the pass-through on a dv camera, or my ConvertX (poor buy.) I get a lot of dropped frames. As if the signal drops below some acceptable threshold for the digital devices. Does the MV30U or other standalone units have this problem?