Justify capture card route vs. standalone unit

[Leoslocks]

I do not have any DV hardware to connect to the MV30. Some of the tapes I am copying are in poor shape and the capture will halt if the signal is not fair. The capture will resume when the signal returns. I have tried watching the same bad portions on the MV30 and a JVC 2902. The parts that will not Record to DVD are unwatchable period. I have tried rewinding the tape several times to wrap it evenly. Broke the leadin on one tape after capturing and rewinding.

The main reason I purchased this unit is because it is sVhs. The alternatives to capturing via computer involved a TBC and a better capture device. The price of this unit is prohibitive.

If I had 50 tapes to transfer, that would be a reason to use a standalone. If I captured via computer, by the time I finished the 50 tapes, I would have gained enough experience and expertise to realize how to do a quality job. That would require the need to recapture the 50 tapes.

[lordsmurf]

Basically, they want me to justify spending $140 for an AIW card, $280 for a TBC-1000, and $200+ on a high quality VCR when I could get a standalone unit for quite a bit cheaper.

A standalone will not replace a full-frame TBC or good VCR.
It depends on how good a job you want to do.

John Q. Consumer = Doesn't care one lick. Likes his crap quality.

Is this you? Or are you a more demanding person? Do you want professional quality, or at least strive towards it? Ask yourself that. A DVD recorder is just an alternative to a capture card. It has it's uses too, for transfer.

[anitract]

I'm not John Q. Customer unfortunately (my wallet hates me for this)...well, I'm going to see if the JVC will handle my tapes w/ out a full frame TBC...if I need to get that too then, oh well I suppose...it's only money...right? (I'll just keep telling myself that...)

[NIIDeep]

Another perspective I think you should consider...

While the act of buying gadgets to do some cool project is thrilling... we all do this .... much of the excitement is lost as one embarks on his/her first project. The PC route, I believe will have a steep learning curve. The equipment you list only gets you through capturing. There is still various other steps involved and should be considered... editing, encoding, DVD authoring, restoration?, etc. You will need to consider what s/w to buy. They are just as numerous as the H/w with broad price ranges for different stages of video creation. To do everything to a pro level will take you a long while to learn and would require a heavy investment. But as long as you are dedicated and enjoy the fruits of your labor, it's justified.

So you'll need to consider your goals with this project of yours and the scope of this as a hobby, how much patience you have, and how much dedication will you put into it. If you want to get these tapes converted "soon" I agree with the person who said "simplicity" is best.

If you plan on doing extravagant things and work towards "perfection" (cannot be achieved but good to strive for), then it will take time (alot of it) and "soon" may not be realistic. For me.. I have old home movies that I have big plans for and I have humbled my expectations to where it may take several years to complete, considering the other obligations I have going on in my life, work, family, other hobbies like golf! etc.

Don't have too high of an expectation on TBC's and high end equipment because as someone else said,"Some things just can't be fixed." The high end equipment will require intimate knowledge of it's operation in order to "understand" your results, esp. if they are not what you expected. Don't treat the equipment as a magical boxes that will work to your expectations right off the bat.

I suggest a strategy of starting out low and work your way up. Start with some of your newer tapes or 1st gens. Learn the fundamentals of capturing from a good source to a DVD. You can easily do this with a middle stream VCR and a capture device as well as the software. A TBC is optional for this stage. If you want, get the VCR on your list then get the dedicated TBC later when you start work on your older tapes that need more work. If you do it this way... your family will "think" you're not spending that much. But in the long run over several months or so... you'll get ALL the equipment that you wanted. Think of it as a strategy. Justify your purchases to your family with experience and learnings from the work you put in on the project. Don't base it on pure speculation on what "you think" you'll need before you even start.

My suggestion... work in phases that align to your development pace. Start low and work your way up.

From the PC route, you'd be surprised to know how complex the process can be getting from VHS to final DVD. I personally underestimated the learning curve. I was in the same situation as you... just about to buy a whole bunch of pricey equipment. That was a year ago. Luckily I stopped at my first few purchases because I found out that I wasn't ready. If I did purchase them, they'd still be sitting around unused or at the very least "under used" mainly because I just don't understand the details. The PC will offer versatility but it comes at a price. You'll need to kinda gain knowledge of drivers, codecs, apps, H/W performance (fast enough processor? defragging your HD, minimize backgroun processes, enough RAM, etc.). It's another X factor to consider in the grand scheme of things.

- Advice from a person who chose the PC route and still does not have all the H/W he was going to buy in the first place. It's been a humbling experience but I relish the fruits of my labor. It's cool stuff!

[anitract]

NIIDeep - Excellent advice. I like your suggestion of starting w/ the better sourced tapes...makes perfect sense. The PC aspect of this I'm not worried about, as I am proficient / tech-savvy with computers and work with them at work daily...but I agree, VHS -> DVD conversion is a very complex thing to do...moreso when you are striving for good results. I mean, I've speant the better part of two weeks reseaching cable brands alone.

[NIIDeep]

The PC aspect of this I'm not worried about, as I am proficient / tech-savvy with computers and work with them at work daily...

Be humble, man.... be humble.... I consider myself computer and tech gadget proficient as well.... I do it for work, I do it as a hobby.... but with all this background I was brought to my knees the night I thought I could do a VHS to DVD conversion in no time. Two weeks later... I finally did something that was acceptable to me as a first try.

Here's a tip for you if you're going to get the ATI AIW (AGP version).... turn off "fastwrites". You'll save yourself alot of wasted system debug time.

I wish you the best of luck! See you around...

[Gregg]

The posted results are in favor of the standalone but I'm curious to see how other capture cards would do on a descently built PC.
Simplicity=Standalone
Best Quality=???

[gshelley61]

As many of you know, after two years of learning and improving my results using the PC card/software method (capturing to AVI, editing, filtering and frameserving, 2-pass encoding, authoring and burning)... just for laughs I bought a used DVD recorder off of eBay (a Panasonic E50) to check it out. I was convinced that the computer method had to be superior to a DVD recorder.

Boy, was I surprised. The results I got from real time encoding direct to MPEG2 using the Panny standalone were easily superior to most of my finished projects done on the computer. This was especially true when I transferred decent video sources like laserdisc, digital videotape or commercial VHS. And the speed! Man, there just is no comparison. No more 24 hour encoding sessions for me! Plus, the audio is compliant AC3 right from the get go.

I think the difference in capture quality has to do with the video pre-amp and sampling sections of name brand DVD recorders. They are designed by companies that have been in the consumer and professional video and audio industry for decades. The computer capture cards I've tried simply don't do as good of a job.

If you are creating an edited project that includes anything other than simple cut and join edits... then starting with AVI is necessary. The main drawback to working with MPEG2 is that it has to be completely re-encoded if you add music, narration, graphics, fancy transitions, etc. You do not want to do that because the finished quality will suffer. You can do simple frame-accurate editing and DVD authoring from compliant MPEG2 without any re-encoding or quality loss, though.

These days, I have all but abandoned computer capturing and instead have focused on supplying my DVD recorder the highest quality signal possible by using high end S-VHS VCR's and laserdisc players; a video proc amp to correct black level, luma and color; an image enhancer/sharpener; and a TBC/Frame Sync (when necessary). I now have a JVC DR-M10 and capture to DVD-RW in the DVD-Video format. I edit and author with the computer, then burn "final" DVD-R's.

If supplied a good video signal and image, the DVD recorder method produces very good results.

[lordsmurf]

Don't forget to mention you upgraded from Panasonic to JVC

[gshelley61]

Don't forget to mention you upgraded from Panasonic to JVC

Just did.

[Bruce Kuhn]

Gshelley,

I have only done the PC capture route for years. I've always felt that software encoding to Mpeg2 would create better results than hardware encoding real-time. I conviced myself that was the case after playing around with a friends Dazzle DVC-II, that captures Mpeg2 real-time. It was 'acceptable' when cpaturing a 8 Meg, but looked like crap at capture rates below 5 Meg. The software method looked MUCH better at the lower bit rates. When I make my DVD's, I always use AC3 audio, so I have more space on the DVD. I use DVDiT pro for that. I usually encode between 4.5 and 5 Meg, to keep the quality good, and have 2 hour DVD's.

So, while the Dazzle experience convinced me that the computer is the way to go, my Tivo keeps telling me differently. I am always amazed at how good the picture quality is on my Tivo, and that does real-time capture as well. So, while one side of my brain is telling me the PC is best, the other side is saying that I just need to find a better real-time encoder. If Tivo can do a great job, then some of these DVD recorders should do as well, or better.

All of this explanation is leading to a question for you. I have always assumed that these DVD recorders record to a 'DVD format'. In other words, the final recording will not contain a .mpg extension, and will instead be the VOB format that you find on DVD. Since I will want to do some basic editing (cut waste, combine clips etc) after capture, I did not want to go through the hassle of ripping this DVD to get my Mpeg2 files out. Can you tell me if I can use the JVC DR-M10 you mentioned to capture straight to a Mpeg2 file?? And, if I can specify bit rates of the capture, and select if I want the audio encoded as mpeg with the stream, or PCM, or even AC3??

If I use this DVD recorder route, I would want to have the captured file ready to go into DVDit. That means I want a Mpeg2 compliant stream right on the DVD, without extraction. And, I would want a separate PCM audio file that DVDit could convert to AC3. Or, a seperate AC3 audio file that I can load into DVDit. If I have to rip the DVD from this recorder to get this file, then I will probably staty with the PC route. But, it these recorders can give me the files I mentioned, I may give this route a try.

Any info you can provide will be appreciated.
Thanks

[gshelley61]

DVD recorders (when using the DVD-Video format, not the VR format) capture DVD compliant MPEG2 and then "finalize" to the standard VOB, IFO, BUP file structure. VOB's are no big deal. They simply contain the MPEG2 video, AC3 (or PCM) audio, subtitle info, etc. You can frame accurately edit VOB's with Womble and save to a new .mpg file, then author with your choice of software. Or, TMPGEnc DVD Author takes VOB's without conversion and you can trim, select chapters and author with that program by itself.

With VOB's created on DVD recorders, you have a single video and single audio file, so in most cases you can simply rename the files with the .mpg extension and they work just fine. What I do is join, rename and save a single .mpg file to my computer's hard drive with Simple File Joiner (free at http://www.peretek.com/sfj.php). Then I edit with Womble, save the edited .mpg, demux, pick chapter points with MPEG2Schnitt, then author a simple no-menu DVD with IFOEdit. The results I get are very good, and there is no re-encoding or loss of quality using this process. The audio remains AC3 all the way through, too.

You can also use DVD Decrypter to join and save the VOB's to a single VOB, then proceed with Womble or TMPGEnc DVD Author or whatever program you like that can accept VOB's. It is possible to do this right off the recorded disc, but it works much better (and faster) if you rip and save the MPEG2 to your hard drive first.

[BroganMc]

All of this explanation is leading to a question for you. I have always assumed that these DVD recorders record to a 'DVD format'. In other words, the final recording will not contain a .mpg extension, and will instead be the VOB format that you find on DVD. Since I will want to do some basic editing (cut waste, combine clips etc) after capture, I did not want to go through the hassle of ripping this DVD to get my Mpeg2 files out. Can you tell me if I can use the JVC DR-M10 you mentioned to capture straight to a Mpeg2 file?? And, if I can specify bit rates of the capture, and select if I want the audio encoded as mpeg with the stream, or PCM, or even AC3??

If I use this DVD recorder route, I would want to have the captured file ready to go into DVDit. That means I want a Mpeg2 compliant stream right on the DVD, without extraction. And, I would want a separate PCM audio file that DVDit could convert to AC3. Or, a seperate AC3 audio file that I can load into DVDit. If I have to rip the DVD from this recorder to get this file, then I will probably staty with the PC route. But, it these recorders can give me the files I mentioned, I may give this route a try.

I've only tried one DVD/VHS Recorder so I don't know the features of all, but to my understanding this is the way it works.

DVD Recorders have preset time modes that correspond to quality settings. 1H and 2H recordings are usually DVD quality. More time means a drop to SVCD and VCD depending on length. Panasonic, JVC and Pioneer all have "Flexible Recording" format where you can set an odd time limit like 1H15M and get a better bitrate. I'm not aware of a way you can actually set the bitrate or formats.

All DVD Recorders offer recording in Video and Video Recording modes. VR records everything in one giant mpg file with a separate navigation file to store playlists (different recording sessions, commercial cuts, etc.). Video Mode records in standard VIDEO_TS file structure (1gb VOB files, menu files, bup, vob, ifo).

All save files as .vob. But VOBs are merely mpeg-2 with audio wrapped with navigation. If you transfer a VOB file to computer (with basic drag and drop) you can treat it just like a mpeg. Rename it .mpg if you like.

The files are muxed program streams, so if DVDit doesn't support that you'll need to demux to elementary streams with other software. (DVD Decryptor, TMPGEnc, etc.)

One software I picked up and works great is VideoReDo. It fixes many problem MPEG-2 files, strips erroneous time stamps, cuts, joins, and can export as either a program stream or elementary streams. There's no reencoding, output times are fast (under 2 min), and no audio sync issues for me. I edit with VideoReDo then author with Ulead.

If you're concerned about the Video Mode separating into 1GB chunks, use VR mode on a DVD-RW or DVD-RAM disc. Finalize the disc in the recorder. Pop it into your PC, drag and drop the MPEG file over then demux, edit, author as you please. Or use Video Mode, and rip with DVD Decryptor in IFO mode and set the "Split files into chunks" to "NONE". Then you can rip programs in one chunk.

The one thing a DVD Recorder excels at over PC capture/editing is the encoding. Encoding is real time. Quality is way better than anything Dazzle can do (I've tried Dazzle and been thoroughly disappointed).

I too have been a "straight to PC capture" gal converted to DVD Recorder route. I still use PC capture when I want to do heavy editing (transitions, text overlays, video filters, post processing, etc.) and want a high quality AVI for source material. But basic jobs that require some cutting, transferring to DVD with a nice menu, I'm employing my DVD Recorder.

[Leoslocks]

Boy do I have a lot to learn.

gshelley61 You make it sound so simple. Thanks!

[Bruce Kuhn]

Well, I will have to download the trial version of Womble, and see how easy it is to work with the VOB's, in the way you explain this. I can play with VOB's from other DVD's, and then see how easy it is to edit and burn another one. I don't mind my current method, but this way could save considerable disk space if it as easy as it seems.

My next project is converting home movies of my kids to DVD. I plan to make a DVD of birthdays, holidays, etc. That means that 1 DVD may have 3 birthdays on it, and will be created from 3 different tapes. So, with my current method, it would go like this:

-Capture 3 AVI files from the 3 different tapes
-Load these AVI's into Premiere, edit gaps and waste
-Export to Mpeg2 with Mainconcept creating a Mpeg stream and PCM audio stream. These will be separate streams. This export is the longest step, but I just have these run at night, so I don't care how long it takes. If I have more than 1 project, I just batch encode them. So, the length of time here does not bother at all
-Load the m2v and PCM audio file into DVDit. Create menus, and chapter points.
-DVDit will convert PCM audio to AC3, and burn disk

This is very simple, and does not take me much time. The only down side is collecting all of the seperate video files, from multiple tapes, in AVI format. Since I may capture from several sources before I decide what will end up on the DVD, these AVI's will take up a lot of disk space while I collect everything.

What I like about the DVD recorder approach is that I can capture ALL my tapes to DVD quickly, and they will not take up a ton of disk space while I find the time to edit them all together. From what you said, this is what I would do with the DVD recorder method.

-Capture multiple tapes to multiple DVD's with the recorder
-Copy the VOB's from different disks I want to use to my computer
-Rename the VOB video files to Mpg files.
-Rename the audio files to AC3 files
-Edit these files, and create one video file, and one audio file, with Womble
-Move the combined Mpeg file, and AC3 file into DVDit
-Create my menus, and chapter points, burn disk

If I am correct about all this, it should take about the same time to make my final product. It actually would take longer for my current method, because of the encode time. But if I remove that, because it is done overnight, the other steps should be about the same. But, this saves me a ton of disk space. And, if the Mpeg quality is a good as my software encode, I think I would like this route.

However, I thought that I would actually have to rip the VOB off the DVD. Then, separate out the audio and video stream, so I can have the PCM stream to enter into DVDit. This would take additional time, and actually make creating a DVD this way longer than my current method. Even if it did, it may be worth it for better quality, and easier storage during capturing.

Thanks for the links!! I got some play'n to do.........

[BSR]

I was considering a PVR-150 for hardware capture card because I thought it would be more versatile to me than a stand alone.

But the posts on the previous page would suggest that is a bad move.
Looks like that DVDrecorder did an excellent job with some nice filtering on the image.

Is this dramatic difference expected from all DVDrecorders, or only this $750 professional JVC, in comparison to say liteone 5005, Panny E55 or JVC M10?(assuming source VHS tapes are in good condition)

[gshelley61]

The DVD recorder section of the JVC SR-MV30 is identical to the JVC DR-M10. The JVC DVD recorders do a great job, especially because they have a pre-encoding processing feature that stabilizes and cleans up the video signal before capture.

[Bruce Kuhn]

My local Best Buy does not carry the JVC DR-M10. It does however have the JVC DR-MV1S. The recording feature all seems the same, but the MV1S contains a VHS player for easy capturing in 1 machine. Since I just ordered a JVC HR-9911 player, I would not need this. But, I assume I could connect to the video in port, and capture just as I would with the DR-M10. Anybody know if the M10 recording is different from the MV1S??

[Leoslocks]

The JVC DR-MV1S is $329.95 at B&H plus shipping. I looked at this unit at Best Buy but was considerable higher than online. Now the JVC SR-MV30 is only $549.95 at B&H.

JVC shows the following specs for the DR-M10S
DR-M10S
DVD Recorder

DR-M10S
[Edited to reduce clutter] B&H specs indicate that this DVD recorder is the same as the MV1S as well as the MV30.
Key Features
• 4-Mode Recording + FR Mode Recording
You can select the optimum recording time. There's the FR (Flexible Recording) mode that lets you record with the best picture quality possible for the recording time and remaining space on the disc.
• DVD-RAM Recording Times
4.7GB about 1 hour, 9.4GB about 2 hours in XP high picture quality recording mode
4.7GB about 2 hours, 9.4GB about 4 hours in SP Standard recording mode
4.7GB about 4 hours, 9.4GB about 8 hour in LP Long recording mode
4.7GB about 6 hours, 9.4GB about 12 hours in EP Extra long recording mode
4.7GB 60 to 360 minutes in FR Flexible recording mode
• DVD-R Recording Times
4.7GB about 1 hour in XP high picture quality recording mode
4.7GB about 2 hours in SP Standard recording mode
4.7GB about 4 hours in LP Long recording mode
4.7GB about 6 hours in EP Extra long recording mode
4.7GB 60 to 360 minutes in FR Flexible recording mode
• Super MPEG Encode Pre-Processor
A three-step process that takes place before MPEG-2 encoding of the input signal. A time base corrector eliminates jitter, a frame synchronizer provides frame normalization, and Motion Active Noise Reduction provides a clearer image than with conventional frame noise reduction, such as 3D noise reduction, by using an algorithm that predicts motion and applying it between moving pictures to minimize image lag.
• Super MPEG Post-Processor
Enhances playback image quality through block noise reduction circuitry, Color DigiPure that provides 3D noise reduction along with color and detail enhancement, and Hadamard noise reduction to eliminate mosquito noise.
• Record Mini DV videos onto DVD using IEEE 1394 DV input
• On-Screen Programming with VCR Plus+ C3
• Up to 8 hours of record time using FR (Free Rate) mode
• Chapter Search using DVD Navigation System with animated Thumbnail and audio (DVD-RAM/DVD-RW VR format)
• Live Memory (Simultaneous Recording and Playback) when recording on DVD-RAM discs

[Bruce Kuhn]

So, if I DO decide to go the DVD recorder route for capturing to Mpeg (M10 or MV1S).......Did I just waste my money on ordering the JVC 9911?? It seems that these DVD recorders have the TBC and DNR that I bought the JVC 9911 for. If I go the DVD recorder route, wouldn't my JVC 3900 be just fine for playback into this recorder???

Plus, the MV1S is even lower cost that what I paid for the JVC 9911.........

I just checked the Best Buy price, and it was $349, $20 higher than B&H. I would normally go with B&H, but I have $1,000 in Best Buy gift cards burning a hole in my pocket, AND I could have it today........

[The_Doman]

I was considering a PVR-150 for hardware capture card because I thought it would be more versatile to me than a stand alone.

The PVR-150 is a nice (and cheap) card if only the horrible (line) audio level problem was solved.
But for quality VCR captures you really need some form of TBC. The good DVD recorders have one built in and will give great results.
I have 2 of those PVR-150MCE cards here and without a TBC they are not really great for VHS captures. It works but the picture is never really stable.
That's why I still use for my VHS captures a D8-DVcamera which gives me a perfect stabilized picture. But ofcourse that takes a lot of time.

[Leoslocks]

So, if I DO decide to go the DVD recorder route for capturing to Mpeg (M10 or MV1S).......Did I just waste my money on ordering the JVC 9911?? It seems that these DVD recorders have the TBC and DNR that I bought the JVC 9911 for. If I go the DVD recorder route, wouldn't my JVC 3900 be just fine for playback into this recorder???.......

VHS and SQPB are the playback/record functions of the MV1S deck. I am not sure how much difference that would make when using the deck to source VHS tapes. Quasi sVhs playback will play sVhs tapes in Vhs quality (240 lines of Resolution) and will only record in Vhs quality. If you are trying to transfer sVhs recorded tapes, you need the 9911 to do the tape justice.

I lost out of 6 or 7 auctions on eBay trying to buy an older JVC sVhs vcr. I could not find a bargin on any TBC's either. Hell, I spent $150 more than the unit cost but weeks later. Did I waste my money? ? No, I need another one for the back room with a hard drive,. . . not Two hard drives in it.

[Bruce Kuhn]

Removed

[Bruce Kuhn]

Boy, was I surprised. The results I got from real time encoding direct to MPEG2 using the Panny standalone were easily superior to most of my finished projects done on the computer. This was especially true when I transferred decent video sources like laserdisc, digital videotape or commercial VHS. And the speed! Man, there just is no comparison. No more 24 hour encoding sessions for me! Plus, the audio is compliant AC3 right from the get go.

So. my question is this....

I have been reading the manual for the M10 (the unit you say you use) on the JVC site. It says that it records in AC3 in XP mode only. XP mode is the highest quality, and only gives about 1 hour per DVD. I would want to use SP mode, for 2 hours per DVD. So, I can't get AC3 audio in SP mode on the M10???

[lordsmurf]

To the above question, several posts up: NO! You did NOT waste money on a good VCR. The VCR found in the JVC combo unit is a huge piece of crap. They REALLY went budget on the VHS portion of that unit. Combo units in general are bad ideas anyway. Just get separate components. Best Buy is a junk store, mostly. And expensive. Other electronics stores carry the full JVC line. And there is ALWAYS online stores.

AC3 is on all modes. XP can also do PCM (but I wouldn't).

A "built in" TBC on a DVD recorder is NOTHING. NADA. WORTHLESS. If you want a real TBC, by a TBC. None of this "built in" junk. (Not to be confused with a built-in on a VCR, that's different.)

[gshelley61]

I have been reading the manual for the M10 (the unit you say you use) on the JVC site. It says that it records in AC3 in XP mode only. XP mode is the highest quality, and only gives about 1 hour per DVD. I would want to use SP mode, for 2 hours per DVD. So, I can't get AC3 audio in SP mode on the M10???

No, no. You have it backwards. As LS mentioned, there is a choice of AC3 or PCM audio in the XP mode only. All the other modes are AC3 audio (because PCM takes up too much disc space).

[Bruce Kuhn]

To the above question, several posts up: NO! You did NOT waste money on a good VCR. The VCR found in the JVC combo unit is a huge piece of crap. They REALLY went budget on the VHS portion of that unit. Combo units in general are bad ideas anyway. Just get separate components. Best Buy is a junk store, mostly. And expensive. Other electronics stores carry the full JVC line. And there is ALWAYS online stores.

AC3 is on all modes. XP can also do PCM (but I wouldn't).

A "built in" TBC on a DVD recorder is NOTHING. NADA. WORTHLESS. If you want a real TBC, by a TBC. None of this "built in" junk. (Not to be confused with a built-in on a VCR, that's different.)

Thanks for the clarification on the AC3 recording. The manual I read on-line mentioned the option for AC3/PCM was only on the XP mode. It made it 'appear' as though all other modes beside XP was PCM. It makes sense that all other modes would be AC3. Since you have the option for AC3, I don't know why anyone would even want PCM.

I wish I could find a local electronics store that carries the full JVC line. I work right next door to the JVC Midwest sales office. When I could not find the JVC models I was looking for in local electronics stores (the 9911 VCR, and M10 DVD Recorder), I called that office to find out where I could get them. There response was "nowhere in Illinois". I know there are many places on-line (like B&H Photo), but UPS will not leave those packages at my house, and I can't have them delivered to work. I just recently figured out that I can have them delivered to a local UPS store, and pick them up there. That is what I did with the JVC 9911 (It will be here on 2/2). But, since I was not sure if I would keep the DR-M10, I did not want to do that mail order. For that, I decided to go with the DR-MV1S combo unit, because my local Best Buy had THAT model. I don't plan on using the VCR portion of it, because I will have the 9911 soon. But, it allowed me to get the same recording features of the M10 quickly. And, I could easily return it If I did not like the quality.

As for the quality, that will be my nex post..............

[Bruce Kuhn]

Well...........I'm now officially a stand-alone convert..............

I picked up the JVC DR-MV1S over the weekend, because of the talk on this thread. I had my doubts on the quality compared to my software encoding method. Not anymore. For the small time I had to experiment last night, I was extremely impressed. I recorded three samples, and here are my results:

1. From the built in tuner off of cable - The resulting picture was incredible. To me, it looked better than I ever tought it could. I showed it off at work today, and asked opinions of others. They thought it was a original DVD, and not off of cable. Everyone was very impressed.

2. A 6 year old VHS tape, played many times. - Again I was very impressed. The end result DVD was better looking than the original tape. Again, I don't think my software encoder would have done better.

3. A 15 year old tape in VERY bad shape - This was pure garbage in, and pretty much resulted in garbage out. I would say (in this case) the resulting DVD was much worse than the original tape. But, this tape was in very bad shape. I don't know what would have happened with software encodeing on this tape. I will try that later this week. I will also try this tape again when the 9911 arrives on Wednesday.

After these results, I satrted to round up all my old footage, so I could start converting. I was surprised to find about 100 tapes. These would have taken forever to do with the PC capture method I had planned on using. I will still use the PC when I have complex projects that require extensive editing, and special effects. But, for saving these home movies, I will forever recommend the DVD recorder method.

Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. It was extremely helpful.

[skistyle]

I'm wondering how different the quality of the output from standalone units is from manufacturer to manufacturer?

It seems with the standalone units, the more you pay, the more bells & whistles.

I have no problem taking the DVD from a standalone unit and then working on it on my laptop to edit and do everything I want to try to clear up poor recordings.

I'm just trying to figure out what the bare minimum is to get by with a standalone unit. I'm a little wary of the lowest price units since I've never even heard of the brands, but what's about the lowest model you would go with just to get capture benefits?

[Bruce Kuhn]

I'm wondering how different the quality of the output from standalone units is from manufacturer to manufacturer?

It seems with the standalone units, the more you pay, the more bells & whistles.

There are several threads here that discuss many different brands, and the pros and cons of both. I spent a week reading through all these threads before I made my decision to go with the JVC. Here are just a few of the threads that discuss this, but there are many more.

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=250299

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=245550

For hardware encoders, the heart of the difference will come to the chip manufacturer used. Then, you can add in the bells and whistles of filtering, TBC, AC3 encoding, or whatever. Low cost DVD recorders can go for $170. The most recommended ones on this board are mid $200's (JVC M10 - $260, Lite-on 505 $290). Or, you can move up to recorders that also have hard drives for over $400. When you compare the cost of a good stand-alone DVD recorder (I went with the JVC) to a good capture card like the PVR-250 ($200), the minimal cost difference is worth it (In my opinion).

If I went with the PC based hardware encoder (like the PVr-250, but there are many others), I could capture real-time like the DVD recorder. If I was going to edit that right away, and burn a DVD with menus and chapters, it would be nice to have that on the drive right away. So, that is a pro for the PC based way. But, most of those cards to not encode the audio to AC3, and that is a big con for them. I will NOT author a DVD without the sound being in AC3. Whay waste the DVD space with PCM audio??

I don't want to get into the differences of PC based to DVD recorder, because that has been discussed already. And, it seems as though you have decided on the DVD recorder route. I just brought up the cost of the PC route for you to compare prices of other choices of hardware encoding. And, so that you consider what some of the other features (like AC3 encoding) can do for you. So, just read these threads, and see what others think. Then, you also need to consider how they encode audio. For example, I know I could get the JVC (with AC3 encoding) for $260. If I found another brand that was did video encoding EXACTLY the same as the JVC for $150, but did not encode the audio to AC3, I would spend the extra $110 for the JVC. Yes, I could get software programs that do the audio encoding for me, but then that adds extra time.

I have been making DVD for 4 years using the PC route. It has all been for special events, or for my wifes business. And, even though I have over 100 tapes of home movies, I had not made one home movie DVD yet. I just kept telling myself I had to do that, but did not start because of the amount of disk space it would take on my PC, and the time to capture then move it to DVD. So, my tapes continued to sit and degrade even more. Since I picked up my DVD recorder this weekend, I have been putting 2 tapes a night onto DVD. I start one when I get home from work, then one before I go to bed. They look great, it's easy, and I can still work on my PC in my office while these tapes back up.

For the time this saves, and the ease of use, don't worry about a $40 difference in the cost of the different brands. Read the threads, pick a good model like the Lite-on or JVC, and get started. You will be glad you did.