Another RIAA Oops....In Print

[hech54]

Shipped....NOT Sold
NEW YORK (Billboard) - Country singer Shania Twain has joined an exclusive club of artists with albums that have shipped more than 20 million copies in the United States.
Her 1997 album "Come on Over" has been certified 20 times platinum by the Recording Industry Association of America , the music industry trade group that oversees the awards.
__________________________________________________ _______

Just like I've said all along. A sale to the RIAA is "It Has Left The Factory". There is NO WAY anyone can accurately track the sales of an artist's CD as sales at hundreds of thousands of retailers across the country...especially the little Mom & Pop type stores.

Ship 'em - Hype 'em then Lie about them....the RIAA Game.

[Capmaster]

"Don't buy 'em"

(Capmaster's game )

[bazooka]

They have been doing this all along.

And yoda wonders why I protest.

If he knew half of what I do, he would protest as well.

[yoda313]

They have been doing this all along.

And yoda wonders why I protest.

If he knew half of what I do, he would protest as well.

Hello,

I know you don't like them it's just that I only support the groups that I like.

Kevin

[adam]

There is NO WAY anyone can accurately track the sales of an artist's CD as sales at hundreds of thousands of retailers across the country...especially the little Mom & Pop type stores.

What are you talking about? In a retail market the manufacturer makes their sale when they ship it to the distributor or retailer. Its not like they just give these things away. They sell them to a 3rd party who then sells them to the end user. Naturally retailers are not going to continue buying new shipments unless they are having success selling them to the end user, so the amount shipped is still a very accurate predictor of total consumer sales, and it is most definitely an accurate predictor of an album's popularity, which is what the RIAA designators (platinum etc..) are intended for. The album in this article was released in 97'. You've got almost eight years worth of shipments to reference! If retailer X orders 100 thousand copies every year for eight years then it stands to reason that they sold all their supply in previous years or else they wouldn't keep ordering more. This is just silly. Record stores don't have massive inventories. If they order more its because they are about to sell out of the last shipment.

The artist DOES SELL an album everytime a retailer places an order. Its the same for all other industries. The RIAA is not trying to fool anyone here.

[hech54]

An "order" is a sale....a "sale - a purchase at the register" is NOT a sale.
What about the CD's that are stolen from the shops? Store takes the loss....needs to order more...BINGO....more "sales" to the RIAA.
THAT has been going on ALOT longer than CD pirating and internet file sharing.
How many people do you personally know that own the Shania Twain CD mentioned above?

[smearbrick1]

Shipments are obviously going to be roughly proportional to sales over time, because if no one's buying it then the retailers aren't going to be placing orders for new shipments. Even if the amount shipped doesn't give you an exact number of the amount sold, it still gives an adequate estimate of the popularity of the album and that is what the RIAA designators (platinum etc..) are intended for. Its an award to the artist and a further selling point "if everyone else bought this album you should too."

Yes, I imagine they sort of learned there lesson shipping ridiculous amounts of albums that no ever buys... anyone remember the Kiss solo albums? Probably a record (no pun intended) for the most albums returned by a retailer.

[adam]

hech54 I do not think you understand the concept of market distribution. The label SELLS their records long before they ever reach the consumer. That's just the way it works, its not some giant industry conspiracy.

This is mindless RIAA bashing, which is ridiculous since there are so many things they have done wrong that all you have to do is tell the truth to make them look bad.

And look at the irony. In one thread it is argued that the RIAA inflates the number of lost sales due to theft and piracy. Now in this one it is argued that theft explains the discrepancy between shipments and end user sales. This is just ridiculous.

Being in the Southern US I can say that yes, I know lots of people who own all of Shania Twain's albums.

BTW: Billboard wrote that little blurb, not the RIAA or the label. They easily could have used the language "sold" instead of "shipped" but I assume they used the latter simply because they viewed them as being interchangeable, which they are.

[smearbrick1]

Being in the Southern US I can say that yes, I know lots of people who own all of Shania Twain's albums.

That number doesn't sound impossible. That album was freakin' huge. I think everyone owns a copy of that album. (present company excluded, obviously.)

[housepig]

adam - the difference between the RIAA and many other industries is that record stores can (and do) return discs that don't sell, in exchange for refund or credit from the record label...unlike, say, a pack of M&M's from the corner store.

so it is disingenuous for the RIAA to certify something as platinum once 1 million copies leave the factory, because 500,000 may come back in a few months as returns... just like it's bs for them to certify a double album as double platinum once one million sets of the discs ship (nice trick they did with Michael Jackson's "HIStory"... which also had tons of returns).

similar with publishing, because most book and magazine publishers accept the covers back (as unsold & destroyed)... but do you think they publicize that fact? no, they tout "X million copies in print!" without mentioning Y million covers returned.

[housepig]

a side note - check out "Confessions of a Record Producer" by Moses Avalon. There's some interesting information regarding the RIAA and some of the practices they'd rather not make public.

no bashing - I let the RIAA know how I feel by voting with my wallet - but some of this stuff has strains of truth in among the rhetoric.

[hech54]

Wow...I'm sure glad Adam cleared all that up for me....and my friend who just reluctlanty re-signed to Crapitol Records even after those hosebags released a Greatest Hits CD because he owed them one more release.
We obviously have NO idea what we are talking about. My other friends (and their band) are on their own label and their US Tour ends on December 15th...they have no idea what they are talking about either....

[bazooka]

Here is a good site for you hech, if you don't already know

http://www.diariaa.com/

It details just about every folly the AA's have made.

It was last updated in October.

[housepig]

Wow...I'm sure glad Adam cleared all that up for me....and my friend who just reluctlanty re-signed to Crapitol Records even after those hosebags released a Greatest Hits CD because he owed them one more release.
We obviously have NO idea what we are talking about. My other friends (and their band) are on their own label and their US Tour ends on December 15th...they have no idea what they are talking about either....

treading some shallow waters here - the first half is like saying "my friend's a carpenter, so I know all about the retail business of woodworking."

the second half... well, they might not have any idea what they are talking about - is their personal label part of the RIAA? if they aren't, then they don't.

[adam]

housepig plenty of manufacturers let you return unsold merchandise. The point is that the retailers don't buy what they don't plan to sell. Even if they are able to return all unsold items, they still lose money on storage fees. Of course there are going to be discrepancies in numbers but come on, nothing to the tune of millions that would invalidate a platinum designation...especially one that has been earned 20 times over.

Look at the album in question. This album was released almost eight years ago. Its safe to say that the stuff they shipped 6 and 7 years ago has all been sold to the end user. Its not like they count multiple shipments of the same exact album. If an album is shipped 5 times (because of returns) before it results in a sale, that does not count as 5 sales. Obviously you can't have more sales then albums in existence.

hech what does any of that have to do with this thread or the way sales are tracked? Its nice that you have friends in the industry, and I will agree with you that individual labels can be harsh but no that does mean that you know what you are talking about. In fact, irrellevant attempts at name dropping and a total blurring of the issue show that you don't actually understand what you are mad at.

I can't believe that you are mad at the RIAA for tracking end user sales based on their shipments. As you stated in your first post, how the hell else are you going to track those sales? You are just mad at the RIAA in general. I am too, but I have the sense to still remain objective enough to actually call them as I see them rather then cry foul everytime their name is mentioned.

bazooka, I've never seen that site before. That is the best name for an anti-RIAA site I have ever heard. I love it.

[hech54]

My friends have had their share in the spotlight. Sure now they are more inclined to be found on "oldies" type radio but that doesn't mean I've learned nothing from them.....and they've learned nothing along the way.
I personally think that my friend who re-signed with Crapitol is going to get the shaft again. He was promised the moon by the one friend he had left at Crapitol....one person in a big company isn't going to change the world....or at least my friend's world.
Crapitol has been trying to get back alot of the artists they have used and abused in the past from what I hear...I still think their up to something...

[hech54]

hech what does any of that have to do with this thread or the way sales are tracked? Its nice that you have friends in the industry, and I will agree with you that individual labels can be harsh but no that does mean that you know what you are talking about. In fact, irrellevant attempts at name dropping and a total blurring of the issue show that you don't actually understand what you are mad at.

OK...all "name dropping" aside. How about another example.
Stevie Wonder comes out with an OUTRAGOUS comment about Eminem's new video and how it bashes Wacko Jacko.
STEVIE IS BLIND....he didn't SEE the video.
Why did he say it? Stevie just happens to have a new CD coming out soon....now his name is "out there" again....how convenient.
If you "ship" 500,000 CD's.....then hype up that band or artist in any way you can....you might actually "sell" some of those CD's you shipped and sell those plus more.
Shipments are not sales...the RIAA's figures are HYPE and nothing more.

[Doramius]

What happens when a retailer has 300 copies of a CD and can't sell more than 1 every other month, if that? DO they send them back. I could be a retailer and order 1000 copies. That's 1000 sales for the industry. Then I go bankrupt and the CDs end up in probate or are sent to a dollar store where they sit for 5 years. It really wasn't 1000 sales.

[Capmaster]

Seems like an overly optimistic method. Sort of like estimating registered voters by how many babies were born 21 or more years ago :P

[adam]

Well I really don't see the connection but to answer your question I would assume that Stevie was just upset by the lyrics of the song, and that he was informed that that the video mirrored the lyrics. Lets face it, Eminem's music and video's are pretty damn literal. When Stevie spoke out against the "video" he was probably just referring to the overall message which would also include the lyrics which he had heard. Even if his comments are nothing more then a publicity stunt (personally I think Stevie's music sells itself) so what? That is life, if you want to sell something you hype it up.

Are platinum designations a hype to sell more records? Hell yeah they are. But again, so what? The music labels are tracking THEIR sales according to how many albums they SELL to their retailers, since the labels do not sell directly to the end user. They then use this data to rank the popularity of albums.

[housepig]

As you stated in your first post, how the hell else are you going to track those sales?

correct me if I'm wrong, but what about SoundScan - tracking at point of sale, rather than shipping totals?

responsible for quite a shake up on the charts in the early 90's, after it started, because it showed that hip-hop, teen pop, alternative and country (whatever you may personally think about the genres) were actually selling much more than they had previously been credited for, and most "big name" established acts were selling a lot less.

The point is that the retailers don't buy what they don't plan to sell.

however, if you have a) a high profile release from an artist that b) you know you can return if it doesn't sell, and c) you have a label rep who is pressuring you to order a ton, you might do it because d) most major retailers have deals where the label underwrites or co-pays for advertising, not just of the label's materials but for the retailer in general. And for most BB stores, music is a loss-leader anyway - you make jack on the cd but you make money on the stereo upgrade.

Go into a mom & pop record store (if you can still find one) and see how many copies of the latest big release they are holding - it won't be a lot, because unlike Sam Goody or Best Buy, you're right - they can't afford to store it and return it - and most small stores don't have the reciprocal advertising deals that would compel them to over-order.

and not to add to the veiled name-dropping, but since I'm having dinner tonight with my friend who is the music-sales rep between major label X and big-box retailer Y, I'll pick his brain about this subject, and post any salient comments later.

[Doramius]

everyone already knows my view.

[adam]

housepig, like I said if a product is returned to the manufacturer then that sale is invalided, obviously. They are not counting raw shipments, they are counting sales to the retailers, aka shipments that are not later returned...again obviously. You cannot claim more sales then products in existence.

So out of those shipments sold to, and retained by the retailers. They will hold that inventory until it is sold, and will not purchase more shipments from the label until that has happened. For any inventory which completely wastes and cannot be sold, that is just a loss for the retailer. Either way the manufacturer still made their sale.

[housepig]

housepig, like I said if a product is returned to the manufacturer then that sale is invalided, obviously. They are not counting raw shipments, they are counting sales to the retailers, aka shipments that are not later returned...again obviously.

here's where it's not that obvious - again, using MJ's "HIStory" as an example - record is certified by the RIAA, days after it is issued, as double platinum... on the basis of shipping 1 million copies of a double-album.

now if you are less than a week into a release, how do you have any idea how many copies will be returned from the initial shipping? yet the album was certified as double platinum.

[adam]

I can only assume that the margin was great enough that they can be reasonably certain that, all subsequent returns considered, it would still qualify as double platinum. I think for certain huge releases these things can be forgone conclusions.

And then there's the fact that a sale is a sale until recinded. Consumers return albums to the retailer too, but until that happens you have to assume the sale is final. I think its safe to say the vast majority of albums shipped to retailers are not returned to the manufacturer, but rather sold to consumers over time.

[RIAA]

Remember, no matter where you go, there we are.

[glockjs]

Remember, no matter where you go, there we are.

cap has got way too much time on his hands

[bazooka]

Remember, no matter where you go, there we are.

Lying to the public is also a crime.

[ViRaL1]

I'd tend to agre with adam on this one. Although the number of copies shipped isn't an accurate count of the number of copies sold to consumers, for an album that's been out 7 years, I'd say that it's probably not all that far off. It's true that larger retailers may order tens of thousands of copies when an album is first coming out, but they don't gain anything by continuing to order that same CD in bulk if it's not leaving the store. Returns may count for something and I'm sure the RIAA isn't taking returns into account, but honestly I don't recall too many places that do much in the way of returns on CDs. I doubt there are droves of people out there purchasing this album then turning around and returning it unopened (not much you can do with an opened one in most shops). To account for 'shipped' CDs, we'll allow for...
1) stolen CDs
2) returned CD (either unopened, which are resold rather than reordered, or defective which are exchanged for identical copies)
3) copies sitting on the shelves
4) copies sitting in the warehouses

[glockjs]

yeah but how do you certify an artist platinum or put them in a special category with out the albums actually being sold. how many cd's do you see just sitting there on the shelf at BB CC walmart target...yada yada of a hot new artist? there has to be tons of these cd's out there. it's the music worlds way of creating hype....this artist is selling like mad, the hottest thing...blah blah that you have to go out and buy it sheeeeep