Another RIAA Oops....In Print

[jimmalenko]

And then there's the fact that a sale is a sale until recinded.

Say 1 particular return caused the figures to drop from 500,000 to 499,999. Is the certification recinded, also ?

It's no longer a sale, after all

[adam]

glockjs the albums were literally and physically sold to the distributors. The artists do not work for Sam Goody, they work for their labels. Their sale occurs when the label gets their money. Eventually that sale will transcend into another sale where the end user gets their cd and plays it. There may be 50 different "sales" in between.

The labels do not make their sale when the albums reach the consumer. There is a reason that retailers charge an average of 40% markup on items. Its because they are also providing the service of allowing you to buy that product at multiple, convenient locations. THAT is what you are buying as the consumer. The label sold their product long before it reached the stores.

If the label sells the disk to the distributor for $8 and it is eventually sold to the consumer for $15 then, as far as the label is concerned, why would you say their sale didn't occur until the consumer got it? What does the label get out of that subsequent sale? Nothing. If I grow apples I don't particularly care whether they fall off my distributor's truck on the way to market. As long as their is a demand in the marketplace, the distributors and retailers will continue to purchase orders from me, and THAT is the business that I am in. Naturally, if those retailes and distributors want to stay in business they will attempt to sell as much of their stock as they can and thus our number of sales will equalize over time.

jimmalenko, again I presume that an album is not labeled gold or platinum until there have been enough sales that 1 or even 10,000 returns would not make a difference. The label has to request the certification from the RIAA, and I presume the certification does not come until the RIAA can actually certify that the number has safely been reached. Let's face it, a Gold record is either going to hit 500,000 easily and keep on going or its going reach the 500,000 slowly over a long time, in which case the numbers are going to be very equalized.

[jimmalenko]

jimmalenko, again I presume that an album is not labeled gold or platinum until there have been enough sales that 1 or even 10,000 returns would not make a difference. The label has to request the certification from the RIAA, and I presume the certification does not come until the RIAA can actually certify that the number has safely been reached. Let's face it, a Gold record is either going to hit 500,000 easily and keep on going or its going reach the 500,000 slowly over a long time, in which case the numbers are going to be very equalized.

Yeah I know, I'm just being a pedantic little shit ....


... annnnnnd I'm over it now

It is certainly an interesting debate.

[housepig]

jimmalenko, again I presume that an album is not labeled gold or platinum until there have been enough sales that 1 or even 10,000 returns would not make a difference. The label has to request the certification from the RIAA, and I presume the certification does not come until the RIAA can actually certify that the number has safely been reached.

okay, from my buddy the label rep:

in the bad old days (70's to early 90's) the RIAA was notorious for going on numbers shipped, not numbers sold.

in the post-SoundScan era, because it's now possible to more accurately track sales, the RIAA compromised and said a) they'd certify based on net sales, not shipping, and b) they'd hold off on certification for 60 days, to allow for returns.

the loophole is, according to my friend, that most big-box retailers won't have their returns sent in by the 60 day mark, so it's basically a pass for the RIAA - if they ship 2 million, and 61 days later Circuit City sends them back 500,000, it's still counted as double platinum.

the flipside though, is that most retailers now are more savvy than they were back in the day, and won't be compelled to order significantly larger numbers if they don't think they can sell it - you might be able to get someone to bump from 100,000 copies to 125,000, but not to 300,000.

and let me clarify - I don't doubt that the Shania Twain album has done 20 million in sales. But I also have seen enough evidence that the RIAA does game their numbers to not trust them across the board.

[Doramius]

This is information I've been gathering on the net regarding shipping, but it's bits and pieces all over. If I find something in one place I will post the site.

Retail stores that sell Recorded Music usually buy in bulk from a main warehouse or corporate distributor. This corporate distributor usually has a connection with the selling label for an artist. We'll use Wal-Mart, Tower Records, & Madonna for an example only. Let's say Wal-Mart's corporate distributor orders 500,000 copies from Tower. Tower records that as 500,000 sales, -1%. This leaves 5000 copies that are either unsold, damaged, stolen, lost, etc. by walmart. The artist is mainstream and has been reported as a top selling artist. Wal-mart sends most of it's copies to it's largest music sellers, then cuts amounts distributed accordingly to the general music sales of the rest of the retailers. If the retail stores do not sell enough of what they have, their next inventory shipment is usually cut by 3/4 for the next week from the corporate distributor. The rest are held in a warehouse until the sales fall below a certain point, or the CD falls below a certain point or level on a chart of popularity. I think this usually comes from radio station reports or something like that. I couldn't find anything too specific about it. Let's say after 8 weeks, Wal-mart has 30,000 copies left and the CD has fallen below it's point on a certain type of chart. Wal-Mart MAY send up to half of what it has in it's warehouse, back to Tower. That's a possible 15,000 CDs. Making a total possible inaccuracy of 4% on an average. Which means if an artist sold 4 million copies, they may be off, maybe 50k-100k. It would be like losing $2.50 to taxes for every $100 you spend. It's pocket change in numbers. And the copies usually get sold in time anyway. The company places the CD in OOP status and whatever copies are left get sold.

[adam]

Thanks for that information guys.

[BobK]

> Lying to the public is also a crime.

Really? Would that be a federal crime, state crime or local ordinance?

Do you have any information on anyone who has ever been criminally charged with "lying to the public" (not "lying under oath" or some other crime involving lying- but specifically lying to the public?).

If lying to the public was really a crime then the entire US Congress, not to mention every other state and local elected boards would all be meeting in jail.

According to some people, even lying in court under oath isn't a crime if you're just lying about sex.